The 'Invisible church' bugs me.

[buzuxi02]

2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Correct, but which person with apostolic succession laid hands on the "invisible church adherents" to be sealed with holy Spirit ? 2 Corinthians 1:19 makes clear (among 5 or 6 other places in scripture) that one with apostolic teaching and apostolic succession lays hands on the professing individual. No where is it implied in scripture this sealing of the Holy Spirit is a spontaneous act only known by taking the individuals word for it. It requires an anointing from another something the sects cannot lay claim to.

 

[Cement]

According to the Nicene Creed you cannot have "different denominations". Secondly what constitutes a relationship with God differs because the "different denominations" have a differing understanding of what that means and how to achieve it.

No denomination is 100% right on everything. The church consists of true believers irrespective of what worldly church they belong to. God has a relationship with his people regardless of whether they went to bible study or not.

 

[Hank77]

Of course it's a different gospel. It so different that you sola scripturalist turn on and devour your own as in the case of Jehovahs Witness and SDA. They use sola scripture to come to their conclusions but since their conclusions differ from yours, though using an identical method you anathemize each other.

JWs don't believe in the Trinity, Jesus to them is a god with a little 'g'. They are not of the Christian faith.
There are other major differences as well.

 

[JIMINZ]

According to the Nicene Creed you cannot have "different denominations". Secondly what constitutes a relationship with God differs because the "different denominations" have a differing understanding of what that means and how to achieve it.

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There is only one way to have a relationship with God and that is through Belief in Jesus Christ and Baptism....Period

 

[buzuxi02]

Bottom line what the protestants are presenting here is a heresy called syncretistic ecumenism. Amazing how they acknowledge they are wrong on many aspects of the faith.

 

[JIMINZ]

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[Hank77]

Correct, but which person with apostolic succession laid hands on the "invisible church adherents" to be sealed with holy Spirit ? 2 Corinthians 1:19 makes clear (among 5 or 6 other places in scripture) that one with apostolic teaching and apostolic succession lays hands on them. No where is it implied this sealing of the Holy Spirit is a spontaneous act. It requires an anointing from another.

Who's talking about apostolic succession?
Where is Paul talking about apostolic succession in these verses? Who are those who did first hope in Christ and who are the 'in whom ye also'?

Eph 1:12 for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ,
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[JIMINZ]

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[JIMINZ]

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[JIMINZ]

Bottom line what the protestants are presenting here is a heresy called syncretistic ecumenism. Amazing how they acknowledge they are wrong on many aspects of the faith.

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As I stated above,#44 my Faith is in Jesus Christ, there are no other aspects of the Faith which affect my Salvation through Him.

 

[Anhelyna]

OK folks

I would like to remind all posters here that this is TAW - The Ancient Way - the board for Eastern Orthodox Christians.

It would be greatly appreciated if posters who are not Eastern OrthodoxChristians, would read the SoP before posting here https://www.christianforums.com/thr...astern-orthodox-statement-of-purpose.7859393/

of the 50 posts in this thread [ to date ] only 15 have been made by Orthodox posters.
Thank you for your cooperation in this matter

Anhelyna Senior Ambassador Member

 

[Hank77]

The primary dogma of protestantism is sola scripture, and this is what JW hold to. They are just more honest about it. You guys also borrowed from what was culturally bequeathed to you by your Latin ancestors such as the Trinity. But unlike them you lie and claim you came up with it all on your own including the identical Greek terminology of the 4-5th centuries. JW and protestantism hold to the same central doctrine of sola scripture.

Oh my goodness. Where did you get these ideas from?

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia...
The Nicene Creed, as approved in amplified form at the Council of Constantinople (381), is the profession of the Christian Faith common to the Catholic Church, to all the Eastern Churches separated from Rome, and to most of the Protestant denominations.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

I don't know of any Protestant denomination that doesn't agree with the Nicene Creed and hold it as their statement of faith. Do you?
What do you think Sola Scriptura says?

 

[JIMINZ]

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[HTacianas]

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Sorry but the Protestant Denominations don't rely upon Dogma to maintain Traditions, and Rituals as the Orthodox and Catholic Churches teach and believe.

Those traditions and rituals are those handed down by the apostles.

 

[JIMINZ]

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[JIMINZ]

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[Rescued One]

So are we judging others by which denomination they happen to be attending? The Lord knows those who are His and He is with them.

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

All of us are at different stages of learning. The time will come when the true believers will know all truth.

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Peter 3
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


https://www.gotquestions.org/grow-in-grace.html

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Growing up I heard all Christian denominations, particularly protestant or evangelical ones, being referred to as 'the Church'.

Apparently this is their interpretation of what Jesus did when He founded His church which the gates of Hell shall never overcome.

I would think that a Holy church wouldn't be filled with thousands of different denominations contradicting one another, and be susceptible to constant additions and changes.
What's a good response to someone that refers to the invisible church?

You are right to be bugged. I think the correct response is to actually look at the historical evidence.

The Church founded by the Apostles was visible, unified in faith and lead by a collegial council of bishops, appointed by the Apostles, who, as Church Father St. Jerome writes, were themselves bishops.

The Church did not tolerate the wide variation of beliefs that are found in Protestantism today. When faced with the Judaising heresies of the First Century, the Apostles and bishops convened in Jerusalem around 50 AD to resolve the issues (see Acts 15), declaring dogma which bound the entire Church from India to Iberia. The Council of Jerusalem cannot be reconciled with the notion of an “Invisible Church”, for if the Church was not visible, there would be no need to pursue such unity.

Councils were repeated in the 2nd centuries and thereafter to counter Arianism, Donatism, Montanism, Pelagianism and others heresies. And the Church thus maintained “one faith, one baptism”.

Which is why St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing at the end of the 2nd Century, could observe:

“2. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it.”http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html

Does this accurately describe the heterodox Protestant churches?

This was the visible Church established by the Apostles. This is the Orthodox Church. The idea that the Church was invisible doesn’t square with the earliest Christian witness.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

So are we judging others by which denomination they happen to be attending? The Lord knows those who are His and He is with them.

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

All of us are at different stages of learning. The time will come when the true believers will know all truth.

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Peter 3
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


https://www.gotquestions.org/grow-in-grace.html

Scripture exhorts us to help our Christian brothers and sisters who have fallen into error.

“19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20

To do otherwise would be callous and lacking in Christian love.

 

[ArmyMatt]

to the OP, the invisible church theory is how they can cover their tracks. Christ calls us to be one, and yet the Protestant world is anything but. so they say things like there are real believers in every denomination (not Biblical), reduce the faith to the bare minimum (not Biblical), and say this has to be since no Church is 100% correct (not Biblical).