The Fourth Kingdom Here To The End

[tranquil]

Hi Tranq



No You are misunderstanding it the Kings Daniel is speaking of is the Kings of the ten toes partly of clay party of iron. The stone strikes the feet and toes.

[34] As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;

[41] And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. [43] As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. [44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;

This is not a Kingdom that forms at the seventh Trumpet.

Babylon is the Head.......In fact Neby's Babylon is the head.

[37] You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, [38] and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.

That is the only Kingdom Identified However the next Kingdom we know is Media Persia Dan 5:

[28] PERES, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians."

Daniel 10 Tells us the third Kingdom is Greece

[20] Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I am through with him, lo, the prince of Greece will come.

So we do have a trail through the first three Kingdoms

How can I take you seriously when you deliberately leave out Daniel 2:35?

Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
​

The toes are not called 'kings' - the kings are the 'gold, silver, bronze, and iron' (Daniel 2:37-40). Not the toes.

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.
​

You want to say it is some sort of historical progression, that we don't need to focus on any of the 1st 3, because only the 4th is now in play. This is clearly not correct. It is all 4 that are destroyed together.

The 'sons of Greece' (the 3rd 'bronze' entity which is given world dominion) are definitely in play in the end times - in the verse you quoted in Dan 10 and as in Zechariah 9:9-16 and in Joel 3:6. All of these are for the end times.

Again, the 7th Trumpet kingdom is the kingdom that is being formed at Daniel 2:44.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Tranq

How can I take you seriously when you deliberately leave out Daniel 2:35?

I did not deliberately leave out anything. How can I take you seriously when you deliberately ignore what the prophecy says. These kingdoms DO NOT exist at the same time.

38] and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold. [39] After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

You are jumping the context of the Text and ignoring the plain words spoken. The kingdoms are in succession. Unless some how "After you" means something different in your part of the world. We know that these three kingdoms starting with Babylon existed over hundreds of years. They never existed together.

The toes are not called 'kings' - the kings are the 'gold, silver, bronze, and iron' (Daniel 2:37-40). Not the toes.

What are you talking about lack of statement does not equate to lack of reality

[40] And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.[41] And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. [42] And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.

So are you telling me it is your position it is a kingdom but has NO KING. Please that is just nonsense of course it has a king. Since this is obvious the next statement is clearly associated with those kings.

[44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom.

This prophecy has been running through time in succession AFTER YOU then AND YET A THIRD.

You want to say it is some sort of historical progression, that we don't need to focus on any of the 1st 3, because only the 4th is now in play. This is clearly not correct. It is all 4 that are destroyed together.

It does not say they are destroyed together you are reading that into the text. You are jumping the text and implying meaning.

[34] As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;

The Stone does not hit all four you are adding your desire or understanding to the text. It clearly states it hits the feet and breaks them into pieces. It hits the feet because the other kingdoms are already gone ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

[39] After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

Is it really your position that these four Kingdoms all Rule THE WHOLE Erath at the Same time. Please that is even more ludicrous then your earlier assumption that there is a kingdom but no King.

The 'sons of Greece' (the 3rd 'bronze' entity which is given world dominion) are definitely in play in the end times - in the verse you quoted in Dan 10 and as in Zechariah 9:9-16 and in Joel 3:6. All of these are for the end times.

This is true I will give you this but I do not believe you really understand how. You think Greece will be in Play I am assuming you believe it is the Seleucid Empire or a continuation or reemergence of in some way shape or form. I am guess that please forgive me if I am wrong. Or perhaps you believe like some that Daniel 11 has not even happened yet. Which ever it is it is wrong.

Again, the 7th Trumpet kingdom is the kingdom that is being formed at Daniel 2:44.

Sorry but this is just plain wrong. This Kingdom has been here on Earth ruling the world since its foundation over 2,000 years ago.

You need to look at Daniel 7 to really understand this better. Because that is what Daniel did he kept asking for an explanation of this dream because it troubled him and he wanted to know more about God setting up his kingdom and the Answer came in Daniel 7:

7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Here we see that the essence of these first Three kingdoms are kept alive in the fourth Kingdom. Rome kept the Babylonian Media Persian Mystery Religion it kept the Phoenicians Alphabet. It Kept Greece's Senate and love of Science and art. it did not just conquer these territories it absorbed them.

Look at Daniels four Beasts A Lion one head, a Bear one head, a leopard four heads, and A Dreadful beast with one head. So seven heads.

Rv 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads. [2] And the beast (Rome 1 head) that I saw was like a leopard,(Greece 4 heads) its feet were like a bear's, (Media Persia1 head)and its mouth was like a lion's (Babylon 1 head)mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Rome did not conquer Greece...... it absorbed it Literally by Inheritance as the last King of Greece willed the Empire to Rome. The other three Empires that came from Alexander one by one feel to Rome through Marriage. The Seleucid Empire was absorbed by Marriage and Became ruled by a Roman of the Julio Line from about 180BC On I believe not sure of that date though. The Ptolemy empire also married into the Julio line Caesar married the Last Queen of Egypt. Although that empire ended with here death Her sons were killed or maybe escaped but never ruled.

And that is why in Daniel 11: it does not distinguish between the Seleucid Empire and Rome it just sees it as the King of the North to the return Of Jesus. Rome takes over the Tile by a Last Will and by Marriage. Rome is the King of the North. And We are Rome.

 

[tranquil]

Hi Tranq



I did not deliberately leave out anything. How can I take you seriously when you deliberately ignore what the prophecy says. These kingdoms DO NOT exist at the same time.

38] and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold. [39] After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

You are jumping the context of the Text and ignoring the plain words spoken. The kingdoms are in succession. Unless some how "After you" means something different in your part of the world. We know that these three kingdoms starting with Babylon existed over hundreds of years. They never existed together.



What are you talking about lack of statement does not equate to lack of reality

[40] And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.[41] And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. [42] And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.

So are you telling me it is your position it is a kingdom but has NO KING. Please that is just nonsense of course it has a king. Since this is obvious the next statement is clearly associated with those kings.

[44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom.

This prophecy has been running through time in succession AFTER YOU then AND YET A THIRD.



It does not say they are destroyed together you are reading that into the text. You are jumping the text and implying meaning.

[34] As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;

The Stone does not hit all four you are adding your desire or understanding to the text. It clearly states it hits the feet and breaks them into pieces. It hits the feet because the other kingdoms are already gone ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

[39] After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

Is it really your position that these four Kingdoms all Rule THE WHOLE Erath at the Same time. Please that is even more ludicrous then your earlier assumption that there is a kingdom but no King.



This is true I will give you this but I do not believe you really understand how. You think Greece will be in Play I am assuming you believe it is the Seleucid Empire or a continuation or reemergence of in some way shape or form. I am guess that please forgive me if I am wrong. Or perhaps you believe like some that Daniel 11 has not even happened yet. Which ever it is it is wrong.



Sorry but this is just plain wrong. This Kingdom has been here on Earth ruling the world since its foundation over 2,000 years ago.

You need to look at Daniel 7 to really understand this better. Because that is what Daniel did he kept asking for an explanation of this dream because it troubled him and he wanted to know more about God setting up his kingdom and the Answer came in Daniel 7:

7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Here we see that the essence of these first Three kingdoms are kept alive in the fourth Kingdom. Rome kept the Babylonian Media Persian Mystery Religion it kept the Phoenicians Alphabet. It Kept Greece's Senate and love of Science and art. it did not just conquer these territories it absorbed them.

Look at Daniels four Beasts A Lion one head, a Bear one head, a leopard four heads, and A Dreadful beast with one head. So seven heads.

Rv 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads. [2] And the beast (Rome 1 head) that I saw was like a leopard,(Greece 4 heads) its feet were like a bear's, (Media Persia1 head)and its mouth was like a lion's (Babylon 1 head)mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Rome did not conquer Greece...... it absorbed it Literally by Inheritance as the last King of Greece willed the Empire to Rome. The other three Empires that came from Alexander one by one feel to Rome through Marriage. The Seleucid Empire was absorbed by Marriage and Became ruled by a Roman of the Julio Line from about 180BC On I believe not sure of that date though. The Ptolemy empire also married into the Julio line Caesar married the Last Queen of Egypt. Although that empire ended with here death Her sons were killed or maybe escaped but never ruled.

And that is why in Daniel 11: it does not distinguish between the Seleucid Empire and Rome it just sees it as the King of the North to the return Of Jesus. Rome takes over the Tile by a Last Will and by Marriage. Rome is the King of the North. And We are Rome.

If you are yet another preterist trolling an eschatology board, just let me know because I don't bother responding to these.

Daniel 2:45 literally says:

just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.​

It is the stone that is destroying the ... 'gold kingdom, the silver kingdom, the bronze kingdom, and the iron kingdom'. All at the same time. What else is there to say?

To your point about 'after this, the bronze kingdom comes' in verse 39... just because something comes after, doesn't mean that Babylon (gold kingdom) is destroyed. In the end, the Medes will attack Babylon. Then the 3rd kingdom (bronze kingdom) is given world dominion.

The 4th kingdom ruler is a co-ruler with the 3rd kingdom (sons of Greece) - just like... the beast from the earth co-rules / has the same authority as the beast from the sea. The 10 horned kingdom is the beast from the sea and the Daniel 8 Little Horn is the co-ruling entity out of Greece/ Javan (whose 4 sons are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim). Tyre is the 'daughter' of Tarshish in Isaiah 23:10 - making the king of Tyre the Daniel 8 Little horn.

So are you telling me it is your position it is a kingdom but has NO KING. Please that is just nonsense of course it has a king. Since this is obvious the next statement is clearly associated with those kings.

I never said the iron kingdom didn't have a king. In fact, I said that it did - the iron kingdom is one of the kingdoms destroyed by the stone. The stone that destroys the iron kingdom - and the gold, the silver, and the bronze. Which you won't acknowledge that it is all 4 at the same time.

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 7:12 refers to the great tribulation.
Read Matthew 24:21-22

21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.​

When Jesus says, the days are cut short it is exactly this from Daniel 7:12 vs Daniel 7:25

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Daniel 7:25

He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.
26But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’​

The 'time, times, half time' of Daniel 7:25 is cut down to 'a season and a time'. This is the exact time as the 6th Trumpet. The 6th Trumpet starts the 1260 days of the beast from the sea & earth but it only lasts for 'an hour, a day, a month, a year' (Revelation 9:15-21) and then the people who survive don't repent. This shortened timeframe is the Ezekiel 390 day siege of Jerusalem.

But you would have me believe that a 'season and a time' is supposed to mean 2000 or so years. I just don't see it.

 

[Douggg]

The 6th Trumpet starts the 1260 days of the beast from the sea & earth but it only lasts for 'an hour, a day, a month, a year' (Revelation 9:15-21)

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

It does not mean the cumulative length of those. It means the four angels will be released at a very specific time....only as according to God's time table.

 

[Timtofly]

You are jumping the context of the Text and ignoring the plain words spoken. The kingdoms are in succession. Unless some how "After you" means something different in your part of the world. We know that these three kingdoms starting with Babylon existed over hundreds of years. They never existed together.

Would you say Greece is not a nation or kingdom today?

Is not the point which nation has the most influence? For a time even Greece and Rome functioned at the same time, but Roman influence eventually swallowed up Greek influence yet Italy and Greece are still nations today.

The church was the mountain with the most influence for the last 500 years, but the church has come and gone with influence several times since the first century. Good or bad, still an influence but not a kingdom, a mountain.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

Given that information of receive power as kings one hour with the person after he has become the beast, it is likely the reason he removes the three kings is that when he claims to have achieved God-hood on his way to becoming the beast - three of the original ten are not going to go along with his claim.

This just proves even more they are not the same Beasts. The ten Kings in Daniel 7 are already Kings when the Little Horn comes up.

11: I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

As we can plainly see the 10 horns are first and are already kings when the little horn shows up.

7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Unlike in Rev 17 Where the 10 Become kings with the Beast for one hour and willingly give their dominion over to the Beast. they are not kings before they do not resist they willingly turn over power to the Beast.

Doug you once told me you changed your view on when rapture happened. I really think you need to take a good hard look at this................. what you are saying just can not be ..................given what scripture plainly says.

Let me show you another subtle difference that says much about these three Beasts.

Rv:13:[1] And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

Rv:17:[3] And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

As we see the Beast in Rv 13 only the heads have the Blasphemous name where as in Rv 17 the whole beast has Blasphemous names. Which shows us Rv 17 is just the last Seven horns and the Little horn because that is where the Blasphemous things are said and done like killing the great tribulation saints.

It seems very obvious to me that the seven Heads of Rv 13 ARE THE BEAST of Rev 17: and the 10 kings there by are 10 different kings from Daniel 7 but not Rev 13 ten horns although that point is unclear but I believe they are the same as the ten kings/horns of Daniel 7

Now one last point I would like to make in Daniel 7 it says three are plucked up by the roots. This is very telling....If you chop a Dandelion off at the soil level it just grows back. However if you pull it out by its roots it never comes back. The fact that three of the kings are plucked up by their roots suggest that the purpose was to remove them forever.

The one unknown here because it is not made clear is are these 10 Kings in Daniel 7 all at the same time or are they one after another. It seems to imply all at the same time but it could easily be one after another. Early Church Father believed one after another. I believe one after another with the little horn coming up after the first three and then removing them and any trace of them. The final 7 are the 7 Heads of rev 13 and are THE WHOLE Beast in Rev 17:

This is how Prophecy gives us a picture of the evolving nature of the fourth beast over a 2,000 year period. ie: Imperial Rome , The Holy Roman Empire, The Final version the Beast will take over in which ten zones are created and these 10 become Kings of these zones for one hour and sign all over to the Beast who is Crowned King of Kings.

Make no mistake Doug this is the Christian World we are talking about and this Beast from the pit will claim he is Jesu returned. Many will believe many will not and those that believe will drag those that do not into the streets for public execution. You will be forced to carry a certificate whether digital or not I do not know but this certificate will show you have sworn you believe the Beast is Jesus/God. Just like the Early Rain had to carry a certificate of sacrifice to prove they had said Caesar is Lord so to will you be forced to carry the mark of the Beast or You will be put to death in Public just as the Early Rain was.

[10] they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" [11] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

[Douggg]

This just proves even more they are not the same Beasts. The ten Kings in Daniel 7 are already Kings when the Little Horn comes up.

Yes, but the little horn is not the beast yet, at that time.

As we see the Beast in Rv 13 only the heads have the Blasphemous name where as in Rv 17 the whole beast has Blasphemous names.

All of the Caesars claim to be gods, in Rome's pantheon religion.

Which shows us Rv 17 is just the last Seven horns and the Little horn because that is where the Blasphemous things are said and done like killing the great tribulation saints.

The blasphemous things said by the little horn as the beast is his claim of being God. And

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

It seems very obvious to me that the seven Heads of Rv 13 ARE THE BEAST of Rev 17: and the 10 kings there by are 10 different kings from Daniel 7 but not Rev 13 ten horns although that point is unclear but I believe they are the same as the ten kings/horns of Daniel 7

The seven heads on the beast in Revelation 13, are the the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10. Sequential kings. Six accounted for already. King 7 will be the little horn person.

ONE of those 7 heads will have been mortally wounded/but healed. That specific head is the little horn person, who will be killed, and when brought back to life - he is king 8, the beast person.

Regarding the ten horns, only 7 of the original kings at the time the little horn comes to power, continue to rule with him when he becomes the beast. 3 of those of ten kings that rule with the beast will be replacements for the 3 kings he removes.

The one unknown here because it is not made clear is are these 10 Kings in Daniel 7 all at the same time or are they one after another. It seems to imply all at the same time but it could easily be one after another.

To me, it is clear that they rule concurrently with each other because they are of one mind to give their power and kingdom to the beast. And they make war on Jesus.

Their kingdom is the EU. Essentially, the beast will be the dictator of the EU. Not just it's leader, as the little horn will originally be.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Make no mistake Doug this is the Christian World we are talking about and this Beast from the pit will claim he is Jesu returned. Many will believe many will not and those that believe with drag those that do not into the streets for public execution.

No, that's not going to happen. The beast will be cursing Jesus's name.

Also, he will not be claiming to be Jesus, because at one point in his time, he is the Antichrist, King of Israel, thought to be messiah by the Jews - instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel. Even at that time, he will be denouncing Jesus.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Tranq

Would you say Greece is not a nation or kingdom today?

Is not the point which nation has the most influence? For a time even Greece and Rome functioned at the same time, but Roman influence eventually swallowed up Greek influence yet Italy and Greece are still nations today.

The church was the mountain with the most influence for the last 500 years, but the church has come and gone with influence several times since the first century. Good or bad, still an influence but not a kingdom, a mountain.

Yes Greece is a Nation and so is Italy and Russia and Great Britain and America. All are nations which are all part of what Rome became in 312 AD Constantinian Christianity. Look at Daniel 11 who is there in the end. The King of the North the King of the South and the Kings of the East.

Here is the world today

The light green is because it is a mix of Muslim and Christian

 

[Douggg]

Here is the world today

The light green is because it is a mix of Muslim and Christian

You have the King of the south, north of Israel?

At the time, when in the future, the battles of Daniel 11:40-44 takes place, as a prelude to Armageddon....

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

Yes, but the little horn is not the beast yet, at that time.

The little horn is never the Beast if it where scripture would say so. The whole possession thing is just not in scripture at all .....it is a doctrine created by people in the past it is just not in scripture at all. Demons posses people demons are just slaves /servants of the Fallen Angels. Angels do not need to posses people they can appear as people. So will the Fallen Angel that is the Beast do a fake resurrection that is very very possible. The fact the Little horn is a horn suggest it is a little Kingdom that speaks great words against God and Heaven and the Saints. Some how by its words does it Blasphemes those that dwell in heaven. Perhaps it calls it self the Kingdom of God perhaps it says it is God's word on Earth Perhaps it says it alone can name who is and is not a Saint. Perhaps it says I am the Bride .....the Wife of the King..... I am Queen and I will see no sorrow. Yet in one day will come here sorrow.

All of the Caesars claim to be gods, in Rome's pantheon religion

Once again proves my point the whole beast would be blasphemous if that was what was being said here. A man claiming he is God ya all Persians did that too so did many Egyptians. Rv 17 The Beast claims something as a whole IE it Claims it is the Kingdom of God on Earth. ie The Holy Roman Empire which is ridden and controlled by the great harlot the false religion of Babylon of Tyre of Greece of Rome of all that is evil in the world for in her is found the Blood of prophets Saints AND ALL WHO HAVE BEEN SLAIN.

The blasphemous things said by the little horn as the beast is his claim of being God. And

No Where does Scripture say that it just says it says Blasphemous things against God not that he is God and kills the Saints. But it also says something else.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This is very very telling if you understand what "the Times" are and what the "Law" is.

Regarding the the horns, 7 of the original kings at the time the little horn comes to power, continue to rule with him when he becomes the beast. 3 of those of kings will be replacements for the 3 kings he removes.

No it simply does not say that at all. It says they are plucked up by their roots which as I pointed out most likely means they are removed for all time.

To me, it is clear that they rule concurrently with each other because they are of one mind to give their power and kingdom to the beast. And they make war on Jesus.

This is what the Beast and the ALL THE ARMIES OF THE WHOLE WORLD DO. Not what the little horn does here is what the false teacher does

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Notice it does not say attacks Jesus.

[19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.

This does not happen until Jesus shows up with the armies of Heaven. Which is what the Fallen angels have been doing the whole time this was their plan from the beginning. To corrupt mankind and use us as their Army in their attempt to defeat God as ruler of the Universe. From the very beginning when they talked us into eating the forbidden knowledge and lied to us and said we would become like God equal to God.

No, that's not going to happen. The beast will be cursing Jesus's name.

That just goes against what scripture says. Please I beg you listen to Paul

[14] And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

He does not come cursing Jesus/God he Comes Claiming he is Jesus/God. Complete with a fake death and resurrection most likely.

Look around at the Christian world and ask yourself is this what Jesus and the Apostles taught. War death destruction Greed ........and that is just the first 1800 years never mind where things have gone lately. Destroying food crops to keep the price high while his children starve to death all around the world. Who was further from the Truth revealed to them The Jews of Jesus' day or Christianity of the last 1700 years. Search your heart and you will see the truth.

I will discuss this with you no more today I beg you to reread what I have said and compare it to scripture, leave your belief at the door and compare it just to the word of God. Peace to you my friend in Christ

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug



The little horn is never the Beast if it where scripture would say so. The whole possession thing is just not in scripture at all .....it is a doctrine created by people in the past it is just not in scripture at all. Demons posses people demons are just slaves /servants of the Fallen Angels. Angels do not need to posses people they can appear as people. So will the Fallen Angel that is the Beast do a fake resurrection that is very very possible. The fact the Little horn is a horn suggest it is a little Kingdom that speaks great words against God and Heaven and the Saints. Some how by its words does it Blasphemes those that dwell in heaven. Perhaps it calls it self the Kingdom of God perhaps it says it is God's word on Earth Perhaps it says it alone can name who is and is not a Saint. Perhaps it says I am the Bride .....the Wife of the King..... I am Queen and I will see no sorrow. Yet in one day will come here sorrow.



Once again proves my point the whole beast would be blasphemous if that was what was being said here. A man claiming he is God ya all Persians did that too so did many Egyptians. Rv 17 The Beast claims something as a whole IE it Claims it is the Kingdom of God on Earth. ie The Holy Roman Empire which is ridden and controlled by the great harlot the false religion of Babylon of Tyre of Greece of Rome of all that is evil in the world for in her is found the Blood of prophets Saints AND ALL WHO HAVE BEEN SLAIN.



No Where does Scripture say that it just says it says Blasphemous things against God not that he is God and kills the Saints. But it also says something else.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This is very very telling if you understand what "the Times" are and what the "Law" is.



No it simply does not say that at all. It says they are plucked up by their roots which as I pointed out most likely means they are removed for all time.



This is what the Beast and the ALL THE ARMIES OF THE WHOLE WORLD DO. Not what the little horn does here is what the false teacher does

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Notice it does not say attacks Jesus.

[19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.

This does not happen until Jesus shows up with the armies of Heaven. Which is what the Fallen angels have been doing the whole time this was their plan from the beginning. To corrupt mankind and use us as their Army in their attempt to defeat God as ruler of the Universe. From the very beginning when they talked us into eating the forbidden knowledge and lied to us and said we would become like God equal to God.



That just goes against what scripture says. Please I beg you listen to Paul

[14] And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

He does not come cursing Jesus/God he Comes Claiming he is Jesus/God. Complete with a fake death and resurrection most likely.

Look around at the Christian world and ask yourself is this what Jesus and the Apostles taught. War death destruction Greed ........and that is just the first 1800 years never mind where things have gone lately. Destroying food crops to keep the price high while his children starve to death all around the world. Who was further from the Truth revealed to them The Jews of Jesus' day or Christianity of the last 1700 years. Search your heart and you will see the truth.

I will discuss this with you no more today I beg you to reread what I have said and compare it to scripture, leave your belief at the door and compare it just to the word of God. Peace to you my friend in Christ

Everyone's life has a timeline to it.

The little horn person's life has a timeline of functional roles.

little horn, leader of the EU.

prince who shall come, following Gog/Magog

becomes the King of Israel, coming in his own name, the Antichrist.

revealed as the man of sin, no longer the Antichrist, phony King of Israel.

becomes the beast, dictator of the EU.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

You have the King of the south, north of Israel?

Well that did happen twice in the 490 years of Daniel 9: which happened during the first 32 verses of Daniel 11: Judea was traded back and forth between these two Empires most of the time in retained its own rule but there where at least two times where the King of the South ruled all of Lebanon. Red is Islam if you look close you will see Israel is not red. The next war which I agree is a prelude to Armageddon is a war of cultures Islam against Christianity it is in effect the final Crusade. To establish the Kingdom of God in Jerusalem just as the crusades tried to do this 1,000 years ago. The more things change the more they stay the same. This is where the Capital will be set up and this is where the Beast from the Pit / Fallen Angel will take his Throne.

Daniel is still referring to these Empires by who they were to him. The King of the South was Egypt under the Ptolemy's. Egypt in real terms is the most powerful Muslim nation. Plus it led previous Campaigns against Israel. Some would argue Saudi or Iran but neither has the experience and military hardware that can be supported in a war with the West. Saudi equipment is all American and requires American parts something they will not get if they go to war with the West. Iran's nuclear card is a red herring Iran in their eyes it is protection against America invading them. Not a weapon to attack Israel. They are not stupid if they nuke Israel their country will be nuked so heavily it will be just one big sheet of glass and none will survive.

One final note we all seem to agree that the King of the east is the Asian Countries but there is no scripture to back this. The Kings of the East could just be Iran and Afghanistan and the other Stans and Pakistan.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

The little horn person's life has a timeline of functional roles.

little horn, leader of the EU.

prince who shall come, following Gog/Magog

becomes the King of Israel, coming in his own name, the Antichrist.

revealed as the man of sin, no longer the Antichrist, phony King of Israel.

becomes the beast, dictator of the EU.

That is just not what scripture says. Everything the little horn does is religious based he is a false religious leader. The statement "comes in his own name" is so misused by the AC is an atheist crowd. Jesus is not talking about the AC here he is talking about his first advent as a lamb and not a conqueror. The Jews were oppressed by Rome and were looking for a Warrior to lead them to victory. Look at what the crowd did when they could have freed Jesus........ led by the Pharisee's (who Jesus had just said the" come in his own name" to they yelled Barabbas because he was a rebel leader that wanted to be the leader of the rebellion against Rome. Jesus may have well been predicting they would do this.

 

[tranquil]

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

It does not mean the cumulative length of those. It means the four angels will be released at a very specific time....only as according to God's time table.

Wrong, yet again.

"Prepared for an hour, day, month, year' to kill a 1/3 of mankind, and the rest that survived after this amount of time don't repent.

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number. 17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and sulfur. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths. 19For the power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; indeed, their tails were like snakes, having heads with which to inflict harm.

20Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.
​

It is the 'season and a time' of Daniel 7:12.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug



That is just not what scripture says. Everything the little horn does is religious based he is a false religious leader. The statement "comes in his own name" is so misused by the AC is an atheist crowd. Jesus is not talking about the AC here he is talking about his first advent as a lamb and not a conqueror. The Jews were oppressed by Rome and were looking for a Warrior to lead them to victory. Look at what the crowd did when they could have freed Jesus........ led by the Pharisee's (who Jesus had just said the" come in his own name" to they yelled Barabbas because he was a rebel leader that wanted to be the leader of the rebellion against Rome. Jesus may have well been predicting they would do this.

It would be helpful if you summarize the sequence of end times events. I made a one post per person thread, where that can be done which you can link back to, or copy and paste into other threads. Please read the opening post #1 before participating. Link at the bottom of this post.

It is not a debate, conversation, or critique thread. One post per person only - in the form you see fit, to communicate your view of events sequence.

My one post is post #2. You can look at it for ideas, if you want. Keras chose a slightly different approach in his one post.

When discussions such as this thread mature and progress, it comes down to a person's overall view of the end times sequence of events.

Unfortunately, many posters tend to think in fragmented form and have really not put everything together. One of the purposes of the one post thread is to get them thinking in the big picture and put together a framework with which they can work things out.

Your sequential list - one post only

 

[Douggg]

Wrong, yet again.

"Prepared for an hour, day, month, year' to kill a 1/3 of mankind, and the rest that survived after this amount of time don't repent.

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number. 17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and sulfur. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths. 19For the power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; indeed, their tails were like snakes, having heads with which to inflict harm.

20Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.
​

It is the 'season and a time' of Daniel 7:12.

Tranquil, see my post #35.

 

[Douggg]

One final note we all seem to agree that the King of the east is the Asian Countries but there is no scripture to back this. The Kings of the East could just be Iran and Afghanistan and the other Stans and Pakistan.

Well, based on the size of the army in Revelation 9:16, it can't be anyone other than China and allies.

The battles in Daniel 11:40-44 are near the end of the 7 years, because in verse 45, it says the willful king (the one claiming to be God) the beast, his time will run out, with nobody who can help from his fate.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

btw, Islam will not be around that time. It will have ended in the Gog/Magog event 7 years earlier.


Israel a nation again (1948)
Jews gain possession of Jerusalem again (1967)
EU reorganizes to ten leader form of Gov't
The little horn comes to power
Gog/Magog takes place
end of Islam
little horn comes into middle east
little horn anointed the king of Israel
becomes the Antichrist
Antichrist confirms covenant for 7 years.
False messianic age begins, the great falling away in Christianity begins
The world saying peace and safety
Antichrist breaks covenant.
transgression of desolation act (rapture must take place prior to the ToD act)
beginning years of the Day of the Lord
revealed man of sin killed.
revealed man of sin brought back to life
now the beast
a statue image made of him
triggering the great tribulation
two witnesses killed.
seventh angel sounds his trumpet
war in the second heaven
Satan cast down
vials of wrath poured out
battles of Daniel 11:40-44 take place
Sign of the son of Man in heaven
Armageddon assembly
Armies surround Jerusalem, Zechariah 14
Jesus returns
beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire
armies destroyed
Satan bound, cast into the bottomless pit
resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints
the millennium rule of Jesus on this present earth
Satan released from prison
final rebellion, including the former Gog Magog nations
God destroys them
resurrection of all dead
the Great White Throne judgment
New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem
Eternity.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Tranq

Sorry I some how missed your post

If you are yet another preterist trolling an eschatology board, just let me know because I don't bother responding to these.

No I am not a preterist at all, not even a partial preterist. I do not use spiritualization to change the plain ,meaning of prophecy unless directed to by prophecy. Ie: if it says a beast is a kingdom then a beast is a kingdom. I believe Daniel 11:40 on is yet to happen. I believe the reason we have not heard of anything about the King of the North and South for 2,000 years is because there has been no King of the South. the King of the North totally overwhelmed the King of the SOuth to such an extent their language was lost to us for over 1800 years.

Daniel 2:45 literally says:

just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.

It is the stone that is destroying the ... 'gold kingdom, the silver kingdom, the bronze kingdom, and the iron kingdom'. All at the same time. What else is there to say?

Simple Question where does the stone hit the statue????????????? Yes of course the whole statue was destroyed when its feet where taken out. Because it took out the feet. If a giant stone hit the Statue of Liberty and smashes the feet to pieces what will happen to the rest of the statue. It would crumble to the ground in pieces. You are negating where the stone hits and saying it matters not. When it is all that matters. If it didn't matter it would just say it hit the statue and smashed it to pieces. This however is a prophecy of everything that would happen from Babylon to Jesus return which we now know as been a 2,600 year period so far. Since the Head is 650 BC and the Feet and Toes are yet future we see that where the stone hits is a statement of not only Kingdom but also of time.

The 4th kingdom ruler is a co-ruler with the 3rd kingdom (sons of Greece) - just like... the beast from the earth co-rules / has the same authority as the beast from the sea. The 10 horned kingdom is the beast from the sea and the Daniel 8 Little Horn is the co-ruling entity out of Greece/ Javan (whose 4 sons are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim). Tyre is the 'daughter' of Tarshish in Isaiah 23:10 - making the king of Tyre the Daniel 8 Little horn.

Tranq I am sorry I tried to follow what you are saying here but there was just not enough information for me. Let me see if I understood you please forgive me if I did not. I got that you see the fourth kingdom co-ruling with the third and that you see the Two horned Beast of Rv 13: co-ruling with the first beast of Rv:13: You Then Said "The 10 horned kingdom is the beast from the sea and the Daniel 8 Little Horn is the co-ruling entity out of Greece/ Javan (whose 4 sons are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim). Tyre is the 'daughter' of Tarshish in Isaiah 23:10 - making the king of Tyre the Daniel 8 Little horn." This is where I got confused I assume you mean the 10 horned Kingdom of Dan 7: not Dan 8: and the Little horn of Daniel 7: not Daniel 8: or did you mean the Notable Horn in Daniel 8:? If I am understanding you you are saying that the King of Tyre is the little horn of Daniel 7: IS that correct. If so Which King of Tyre are you referring to?

I will stop here so I get get clarity from you one this so that I am understanding the point you are trying to make. Just address these points if you could so I get get clarity on your belief and I will answer the rest of the post Thanks

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Timothy

Sorry I addressed a post to you as Tranq that is what you get for trying to answer these things at 1 in the morning

Would you say Greece is not a nation or kingdom today?

Is not the point which nation has the most influence? For a time even Greece and Rome functioned at the same time, but Roman influence eventually swallowed up Greek influence yet Italy and Greece are still nations today.

The church was the mountain with the most influence for the last 500 years, but the church has come and gone with influence several times since the first century. Good or bad, still an influence but not a kingdom, a mountain.

I answered in Post #28 here it is again sorry again for addressing the wrong person.

Yes Greece is a Nation and so is Italy and Russia and Great Britain and America. All are nations which are all part of what Rome became in 312 AD Constantinian Christianity. Look at Daniel 11 who is there in the end. The King of the North the King of the South and the Kings of the East.

Here is the world today

The light green is because it is a mix of Muslim and Christian

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello All Premills

I say Premills because this is a question for them, everyone in this forum knows how the Amills will answer this question. The Kingdom is spiritual in nature was set up during the fourth Kingdoms reign ie Rome 2,000 years ago end of story. But to Premills you must have an answer for this or .......Huston we have a problem!!!!!

So in Daniel 2: and Daniel 7: we are told that there are four Great Kingdoms that will dominate the world. Daniel 2 gives us a starting point ie: Babylon. Of the Fourth Kingdom Daniel 2 states.

[40] And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.[41] And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.[42] And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. [43] As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. [44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;

Ok So this thread is not about the toes and feet the kings of those days Just the point that this fourth Kingdom is on Earth and ruling when God sets up his Kingdom

Now Daniel 7: says this about the fourth Beast

[19] "Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrible, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze; and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet; [20] and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. [20] and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. [21] As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.

So once again the Fourth Kingdom on Earth and ruling right up to the setting up of the Kingdom.

So this Fourth Kingdom starts and stays ruling the world (IN GOD'S EYES) from its start, to the reward of the Saints and the setting up of the Kingdom of God.

SO WHERE IS THIS KINGDOM TODAY? It has to be here, It has to have been here the whole time or Daniel's prophecy is a fraud. It has to have been here after the third Kingdom and been here the whole time or Daniel is just plain wrong.

So is God Wrong????????? or is the Kingdom here and has been here the Whole Time?

This being true and having to be True who is the fourth Kingdom? Who was it yesterday and 1,000 years ago and who is it today?

Hi Just the Facts,

Dan. 2. Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome AND the last Ruler. (5 parts)
Each of their governments were judged by God and the last one will also.

Dan. 7. Lion with eagle`s wings, Bear, Leopard and the terrifying beastly kingdom.
These came up one at a time but are all operating at the same time, (in our day).

So the last kingdom of Dan. 2, the Divided kingdom, and the Great power of Dan. 7: 7, the terrifying one, are the same.

It is very clear who is doing the `terrifying` across the world. This great power has not as yet reached its full potential but is in the process of trampling down all opposition. It has two components, which fight each other. However when their Peace Negotiator arises, (soon) he will bring together 3 areas, and later the whole 10 group. (Dan. 7: 7)

Isa. 31: 8 clearly tells us his nationality.
Dan. 11: 40 tells us from where he shall arise, (in relation to Israel).
Rev. 17: 18 reveals the great city which will be the center of his power over the world.
Dan. 8: 23 - 25 describes his character & how he operates.