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The Fourth Kingdom Here To The End

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Just The Facts, Sep 25, 2021.

  1. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hello All Premills

    I say Premills because this is a question for them, everyone in this forum knows how the Amills will answer this question. The Kingdom is spiritual in nature was set up during the fourth Kingdoms reign ie Rome 2,000 years ago end of story. But to Premills you must have an answer for this or .......Huston we have a problem!!!!!

    So in Daniel 2: and Daniel 7: we are told that there are four Great Kingdoms that will dominate the world. Daniel 2 gives us a starting point ie: Babylon. Of the Fourth Kingdom Daniel 2 states.

    [40] And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.[41] And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.[42] And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. [43] As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. [44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;

    Ok So this thread is not about the toes and feet the kings of those days Just the point that this fourth Kingdom is on Earth and ruling when God sets up his Kingdom

    Now Daniel 7: says this about the fourth Beast

    [19] "Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrible, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze; and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet; [20] and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. [20] and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. [21] As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.

    So once again the Fourth Kingdom on Earth and ruling right up to the setting up of the Kingdom.

    So this Fourth Kingdom starts and stays ruling the world (IN GOD'S EYES) from its start, to the reward of the Saints and the setting up of the Kingdom of God.

    SO WHERE IS THIS KINGDOM TODAY? It has to be here, It has to have been here the whole time or Daniel's prophecy is a fraud. It has to have been here after the third Kingdom and been here the whole time or Daniel is just plain wrong.

    So is God Wrong????????? or is the Kingdom here and has been here the Whole Time?

    This being true and having to be True who is the fourth Kingdom? Who was it yesterday and 1,000 years ago and who is it today?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
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  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The fourth kingdom - in the end times is the EU. At Jesus's first coming, the fourth kingdom was the Roman Empire dominant over the rest of the world. A Julio-Claudian Caesar as its king.

    At Jesus's second coming, the EU the end times Roman Empire will be dominant over the rest of the world, with the beast as the dictator of the EU, a Julio-Claudian Caesar.
     
  3. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Active Member

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    What makes you say this? The 4th Kingdom evolves into and thus is included in its endtime appearance as 10 kings, or as I like to say, 10 states in Europe. The 4th Kingdom was not only its ancient form in the Roman Empire but also its endtime appearance as an amalgamation of 10 states under the Antichrisst.

    It's a good and fair question. I believe the 4th Kingdom is the Roman Nation that Jesus said would be passed from Israel to the Gentiles. In other words, it is European Civilization.

    Although the Roman Empire, in its ancient form, fell in 476 AD, Roman Civilization continues on throughout the current age. The era of these 4 Kingdoms includes the time in which Israel fell, and the Gentile World came into focus as the ultimate recipient of God's Kingdom, particularly after Christ gave his apostles the Great Commission.

    The 4th Kingdom includes its extension beyond the fall of Rome into both Eastern and Western Europe, including its division into at least 10 states. In fact, Europe became a number of states carrying the ancient Roman imperial tradition. Italy, France, Germany, Spain, and Austria all carried the imperial "flag" for the West. And a number of East European nations also carried imperial claims in several of their states, including Greece and Russia. Germany and Austria also could be considered Eastern States as well as Western States.
     
  4. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hello Doug

    Ok but where was it 1,000 years ago. It can't have disappeared it has to be continuous in some form or another. I do not agree it has to Julio-Claudian line but that is irrelevant to this question. The prophecy says it will crush all others and absorb the whole world by Jesus return.
     
  5. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Randy

    I would agree, I would even go further and include the entire European culture and its colonies ie:US Canada, Australia, New Zealand and perhaps even South and Central America.

    Rome never disappeared it evolved and We are Rome by we I mean Western Civilization. Would You agree
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I think that the nature of those countries will change after the rapture, and that they will ally themselves with the kingdom of the beast, the EU. Of course, there will be Christians currently in the EU, leaving as well, in the rapture.




    upload_2021-9-25_13-5-49.jpeg
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I think the Roman Empire went dominant and was pretty much fragmented, the history of Europe, until recently, our generation.

    btw, the Julo-Claudians, I get from Revelation 17:10. Augustus, a Julio-Claudian, was Caesar at the time of Jesus, followed by Tiberius, a Julio-Claudian.

    So I am thinking when Jesus returns, it will be similar to when He left. The gap between Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 9:27, accounting for Israel lead captive into the nations, and the times of the gentiles.



    upload_2021-9-25_13-16-30.jpeg


    upload_2021-9-25_13-17-50.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  8. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    Amazing how many end times solutions there are!! And thats just on these fine forums!
     
  9. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Doug

    Well I think you are not looking at this with a clear point of view. I think your pre existing view of with your Dispensationalist theology is making you miss the obvious. Well I should not say obvious because if it was obvious everyone would know and understand this. Look how many Premills are in this forum and yet only two could put forth even a reasonable answer to the question at hand. I do not believe in pre anything rapture so I can not agree with you on this point but that is a different thread :)

    Perhaps it had a deadly head wound :) just teasing you lol Ok So you would say that the feet partly weak and partly strong are Rome from the fall in 476 AD to today. And the Ten toes (struck by the stone which is Christ) are or will be a reborn Rome IE: The EU. I assume you are aware there are way more than 10 Countries in the EU.? 27 to be exact.

    Perhaps but one has to assume that the 7 Kings which are seven hills are in fact referring to Caesar's relatives, That is a very large assumption. I would point out once again that Daniel 7 fourth beast Rv 13 First Beast and Rv17 Beast while very similar there are also very important differences.

    Now you and I both agree Rome was the fourth Beast but here we are 2,000 years later and Rome is not the same, it has evolved, as we clearly see it has changed. Do you not think that perhaps..... just maybe............ the differences between the 3 Beast of Dan 7 Rv 13 and Rv 17 are showing us the evolving Nature of the Fourth Beast? IE the evolving Nature of Rome.

    Ok well as you know I do not believe Daniel 9 has anything to do with end times it does not say it does and the whole prophecy is about Judah's punishment under the Curse of the Covenant.

    However I agree 100% with the first sentence in this sense. I believe it is a total repeat of the first time from Pentecost on. In other words Rv chapter 7 is the Second Pentecost the 144,000 are the first fruits of the Later rain. I disagree they have to be Jews living in Israel 100% I think in fact they have to Be Christian or they could not be sealed in the Spirit to begin with.
     
  10. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Lost

    Yes it is amazing and in my opinion it is because people do not follow two simple rules

    1. Always let Scripture explain its own Symbols if it says a Beast is a Kingdom then it is a Kingdom fi it Says Jesus is the Lamb of God then Jesus is the Lamb of God if it says the Dragon is the Devil Then the Dragon is the Devil.

    2. Pay close attention to what is said which is the point of this thread. Any understanding that does not show and accept that the Fourth Kingdom must exist and rule the world from its start all the way through to Jesus return can possible be correct. Daniel is very clear about this point.

    So regardless of pre trib post trib ............Europe is the beast................. the Beast is a man .............Russia is Gog ....Turkey is Gog .....this that .............or the 1,000s of other doctrine disagreements this point is very clear.

    The Fourth Beast WHO EVER You believe it to be must Rule from its Start till Jesus return. Otherwise Daniel is just plain wrong and not a true prophet.

    What I find even more amazing is that with the hundreds if not thousands of different views 99% miss this very simple point about the fourth Kingdom
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  11. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Active Member

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    Finally, somebody agrees with me! ;) Yes, absolutely. And yes, I have considered that British Commonwealth countries, and the US could be part of the Beast system, ie part of European Civilization that comes under the influence of the Antichrist. I sincerely hope not, but it is possible! In fact, the combination of all European countries would be invincible, which is how the Beast Empire is described.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am not a dispensationalist. I am a futurist. Look at my screen name to the left. It says non-dispenationalist.
    I am just observing the fragmentation of Europe according to European history after the Roman Empire faded into dormancy

    Regarding the number of countries in the EU, it is not necessary to be ten. If the EU organized itself in
    ten sectors, each of multiple countries, that would take care of the 27 countries issue.
     
  13. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    not really sure what you think you are proving?

    Daniel 2:44 says in the days of those 'kings' (not kingdoms).

    There were these 4 kings during when Jesus set up a spiritual kingdom.

    There will be these 4 kings during when the 7th Trumpet kingdom is set up (which is a physical kingdom) (Revelation 11:15). It is a divided kingdom because some have taken the mark of the beast.

    2 sets of 4 kings, one set for the spiritual, one set for the physical kingdom. Daniel 7's 4 beasts seem to be the set of 4 for the physical kingdom.
     
  14. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Randy

    Well if Western Civilization is indeed the Fourth Beast that consumes the world. Let's see what that would look like on a map.

    [​IMG]

    Kind of puts things in perspective doesn't it.

    That would mean it is also the Kingdom that does this

    [7] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,

    So that would mean our society is the society that kills the great tribulation saints.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  15. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Tranq

    No You are misunderstanding it the Kings Daniel is speaking of is the Kings of the ten toes partly of clay party of iron. The stone strikes the feet and toes.

    [34] As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces;

    [41] And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
    [42] And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. [43] As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. [44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;

    This is not a Kingdom that forms at the seventh Trumpet.

    Babylon is the Head.......In fact Neby's Babylon is the head.

    [37] You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, [38] and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.

    That is the only Kingdom Identified However the next Kingdom we know is Media Persia Dan 5:

    [28] PERES, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians."

    Daniel 10 Tells us the third Kingdom is Greece

    [20] Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I am through with him, lo, the prince of Greece will come.

    So we do have a trail through the first three Kingdoms
     
  16. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Doug

    Well My apologies pre anything Rapture usually goes with the despen's crowd.

    So you do believe the Church is now Israel?

    Well that is my point Daniel says nothing about it fading away. He states unequivocally that it rules and absorbs the whole world. Nothing about fading away. The reality is only one Civilization fits this bill that is Western Civilization

    [23] "Thus he said: `As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces.

    Out of this kingdom comes ten kings and then a little horn that subdues three Kings. This here is one of the major differences between this Beast and Rv 17 in Rev 17 the Ten Kings are OF ONE MIND and willingly give everything to the Beast from the Pit. They do not rebel and have to be put down.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No. The church is not Israel.
    It remains to be seen what takes place by the little horn removing 3 kings by their roots. If it is three of the ten kings, and replaces those three kings. Or 3 other kings, not part of the ten kings.

    My guess that in his bid for power, there will be 3 leaders that oppose him, probably of the original ten leaders. It could be that he just politically removes them from being part of his government.
     
  18. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Doug

    Well it is not three other kings Daniel is clear it is three of the ten. Whether he removes them or kills them is the point they are not of one mind which proves they are not the same ten kings of Rv 17 and thus the Beast of Rv 17 is NOT the same Beast as Daniel 7: Granted it is similar but not the same which was the point I made earlier. The fourth Beast has changed over time and Daniel 7 Rv 13 and Rv 17 show us that change.
     
  19. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The feet partly of iron and partly of clay represent a divided Europe (A.D. 476-Second Coming of Christ). The mixture of iron with clay provides a fitting picture of what happened after the disintegration of the Roman Empire. Although many attempts have been made to unify Europe, ranging from marriage alliances between royal houses to the present European Union, division and disunity have prevailed and, according to this prophecy, will remain so until God establishes the eternal kingdom.

    The EU will not become united and become a kingdom.

    Daniel 2:43

    Berean Study Bible
    As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay.

    The little horn (different from the rest) will be a combination of a religious power and a governmental power. The beast represents the religious power that also has governmental power (unification of church and state). There will come a time when there will be a "forced religion" headed by a religious leader and that leader will have the power of the state to enforce same.

    It will be a deception ....


    Revelation 13:1-18
    And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. ...

    Daniel 7:8
    I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    After re-reading Daniel 7:8, I am going to agree that it is three of the ten that he removes. I think the little horn person (after becoming the beast) finishes with ten because of what it says in Revelation 17:12.

    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    Given that information of receive power as kings one hour with the person after he has become the beast, it is likely the reason he removes the three kings is that when he claims to have achieved God-hood on his way to becoming the beast - three of the original ten are not going to go along with his claim.

    They will be removed and replaced.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
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