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The Book of Enoch

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Stryder06, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. Mazock

    Mazock Non-Pauline Believer in Yeshua

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    Yes,

    But where is the train going?
     
  2. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    This is just one of the many passages that didn't add up for me. At what point did God create "spirits" for creation? I don't remember that being taught anywhere in the bible. Spirit of the wind, dew, mist, etc? Really?
     
  3. Lollerskates

    Lollerskates Junior Member

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    The thing is, the "where in the bible" argument should be restated as "where in the biblical canon..." There are books that predate some books in the canon of the bible - many are apocryphal. Many explain the scores of questions Christians have within the accepted canon. But, some of us have accepted the actions of men to determine what is inspired for us. That is unacceptable, to me. I am responsible for my own soul, and God will admonish me if I come to Him saying, "well, the [insert] Church said that was not inspired, so I never investigated the book for myself."

    In other words, the "where in the bible" argument is incomplete; it assumes the 66 books of the protestant canon are the "end-all-be-all" authority of the Word of God - again, determined by men. Enoch is canon in the Ethiopian bible. It was canon in the Jewish canon, but was discarded. It was canon in the Catholic canon; it was discarded. Question the validity of humans removing books and claiming they are not inspired - on what basis do they do this (is it political, psychological, spiritual, dogmatic, ecumenical, etc.?) As I said before, the book of Revelation was previously not considered canon. That book is reminiscent of Enoch (2.0).

    Moreover, in terms of poetic language, everything has a context. Don't fret over the language of Enoch when the Church cannot even agree on the canon (which is why we have a trillion denominations) [/hyperbole].
     
  4. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Well I wasn't basing my view on "where in the bible does it say xyz" as to why I don't believe it's inspired. Do you believe it is, if so, why?
     
  5. Lollerskates

    Lollerskates Junior Member

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    Bro, I am not trying to argue; I don't know about you, but I am exhausted with arguing with my brothers in sisters in faith. I wasn't necessarily calling you out, I was just trying to highlight how the mentality of "not seeing it in the canon = double you tee eff" is incomplete. The same argument could be applied to apocryphal books depending on the century you are in (which accentuated my point, I believe, about human determination of inspiration from God.) It wasn't really a dig at you.

    Sorry for being lazy.
     
  6. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I'm beyond tired of arguing lol. I was just asking. I've only skimmed through some of the replies, and hadn't noticed yours from earlier. That's the only reason why I was asking.
     
  7. Lollerskates

    Lollerskates Junior Member

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    I understand heh. Well, I would like feedback (on the previous/reason why I think it is/may be inspired) if you aren't too exhausted. Despite my seemingly staunch position, I do have an open mind, and I like to learn.
     
  8. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Too many parts of the book don't add up for me. Despite the angels leaving heaven to get married...:doh:There were other parts of the book that bothered me. I posted it earlier, but I'll share it again so you can see:


    What spirits exist within nature? Spirit of mist? Of dew? And one should note that "hail" didn't exist before rain, so I'm having a problem with hail having it's own angel.


    That said, I feel like there are too many parts that steal (yes, steal) from the prophetic books of Isaiah and Daniel. And Jesus wasn't the Son of man until after His incarnation. Calling Him the Son of Man pre-incarnation is totally incorrect.


    There are other things as well that bother me, but like we've established, I'm not interested in arguing ^_^
     
  9. fcdiaz

    fcdiaz New Member

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    As Christians we are not to argue...To me, the fact that Enoch is mentioned in the bible Jude, Heb., 2 peter, gives it a greater validity than just as an apocryphal book..
     
  10. carole2u

    carole2u Newbie

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    If we can believe God is the creator of life, almighty in power over all, why can we not believe that His direction in what we receive in the Word is what He meant us to have? There are many "lost" books that are not included, is it really by the will of men? I think not.
     
  11. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Where is Enoch mentioned in the bible? Does anyone ever say "And the prophet Enoch said..."?
     
  12. WisdomTree

    WisdomTree Philosopher

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    I'd have to read it before I can make an affirmative decision, but I think there might be some basis for it since the Ethiopic Church holds it as part of their "Narrow Canon".
     
  13. carole2u

    carole2u Newbie

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    look in this chapter - CHAPTER IX.

    1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. 11. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and

    p. 37

    [paragraph continues] Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'


    Does God of heaven, creator of life, need the Angels to advise, to point out? No
     
  14. carole2u

    carole2u Newbie

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    I agree
     
  15. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” 1 Kings 22:19-23

    How is that Enoch passage any different from this one?
     
  16. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Shall we point out some issues with this text? Sure, let's do it. ;)

    In Noah's day, men didn't worship false god's or have kings or lords over them. Calling the Most High "God of god's, King of kings, and Lord of Lords" would hold no meaning when He was the only God, King, and Lord.

    Hebrews 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    I'm sorry but I just don't see all these individuals quoting from Enoch, time and time again.

    So it was an angel that taught man ALL unrighteousness? Really? Not only that, but this book has an unseemly obsession with secrets and mysteries, a theme I run into quite often with...well I'll just leave it at that :cool:
     
  17. carole2u

    carole2u Newbie

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    The main reason is because it IS included in the Word of God.


    This verse shows God as giving permission, not issuing a command, a specific command at that.
     
  18. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Merely trying to show you the flaw in your argument, is all. What you are doing is no different from someone who discredits Genesis as being inspired, simply because it does not show God as being omniscient.

    And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Genesis 18:20-21
     
  19. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Luther did not recognize the canon list made by men over a thousand years before his day, so the debate was not settled even in his day.
    The Archbishop of Canterbury of 1611 cursed anyone who would not read the King James second canon list in the Church readings for the year, and nearly three hundred years later, the Archbishop of Canterbury cursed anyone who would read the second canon in the yearly Church readings! Canon lists of Pre-Christ writings made by the western Church almost 400 years after the Church was established were based on a list made by Christ rejecting Jews of the first century, who made the first canon list of the Hebrew Bible so as to dispense with Enoch because it was Enoch who prophesied about Jesus as God, from the beginning, who was with God, hidden in mystery and who was to come in flesh and make an end of sin, die, rise, ascend to glory and take those with Him who were made righteous and give eternal Life to all who would believe in His name.

    "The Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy", said the formerly "raptured to glory" Enoch, who showed John the things to come, when John went up to heaven: and that one was seen by John dressed in the garments of Priesthood of the heavenly order, as an adopted son of Christ [regenerated in spirit and flesh, pre-flood, and raptured to heaven and who serves with the Watcher angels, there]. John saw him come out of the temple in heaven dressed in those human being garments of heavenly priesthood, with one of the seven bowls of wrath to pour out on the inhabitants of earth during the Great Tribulation -which Enoch was the first to prophesy about.

    Enoch wrote that his book was written for us in the last days.

    The last days are here, and we need Enoch now, and the Holy Spirit has opened Enoch's book up for us in the west for the last two hundred years.
     
  20. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    So you do not believe that the idols made of stone and wood and metals which are discovered worldwide from before the flood, were made for worship by fallen men and fallen angels????

    And angels are called "gods" -little "g", as in created. In Psalm 82; the counsel of the gods stands before the Most High God and are rebuked and warned to do what they were set over earth to do, lest they fall and die like Adam, the one prince/ruler!

    They are elohym, and individual ones are "el", and Adam was made to be the human being "god" under the Most High God, with the dominion of the earth given to him, even to all that is in the air and the sea.

    Adam lost the dominion =the Patriarchal Kingship- and the Kinsman/Redeemer, Christ come in New Man prepared/created flesh of a "Brother human being flesh body to the created Adam to ransom that kingdom./dominion Adam sold into sin and corruption, and for that reason, as a human being sitting on the throne made for the Son of Man in Eden above, He shall be called "The God of the whole earth" -of the human being kind! -He already always was YHWH in the second Person, but He came in flesh to ransom -as a brother/near Kinsman/Redeemer- all that Adam lost.
    For that reason His secret and to be revealed Name when He was to come and be called "The God of the whole earth" was revealed to Jacob and invoked over Him. That name is contracted from three Hebrew words:
    Ish:
    Adam was first human being "ish", and the ishyah was his bride.
    Sar -Prince/Ruler

    Adam was the first prince/ruler set over the earth and given the dominion over all that was in the land, the se and the air -he lost it in the fall
    El -god
    So "Israel" was the secret name of the Son of Man who was to come, who was seen by Enoch, only, in heaven, and seen with God, who was God, hidden in mystery, whose name was secret and was to be revealed "to the elect", and who was to come, and who was the Son of Man and who was to come as God the Son.

    That formerly secret name is "Israel" and was first invoked over Jacob, who headed the sign nation, and was invoked over Jacob as a sign of the adoption to come, into the New Man name, which Christ come in flesh will "write" upon [the regenerated flesh of], all the overcomers.

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD/YHWH of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer [Kinsman] the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.



    Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


    Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.


    Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    We who are dead in Adam are made alive and adopted into the New Man name, and as His adopted sons, we are restored to all that Adam lost, and will reign with Him, as His sons, which is what Adam lost in the fall; and we will be reigning from Eden above, where the throne of God made for the Son of Man is -as Enoch saw.

    Psalm 82:1...
    Elohym
    stands
    congregation/gathering
    [of the] el

    He [judges] has a controversy
    in the midst of
    the elohym

    He proceeds to rebuke and warn them, and in verse 6 -
    I said [you are] gods/elohym
    ben elyown/sons of the Most High

    Truly [you shall surely]
    מוּת muwth -die
    [like] Adam
    [the] echad/one
    sar/prince/ruler
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
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