Thoughts on God vs the Kingdom of God. What does it mean for "God" to do something?

[KevinT]

Thoughts on God vs the Kingdom of God. What does it mean for "God" to do something?

A man falls in a lake and is on the brink of drowning. “God save me!,” he cries out. Another man with a boat rushes to the rescue. “Thank God,” the rescued man exclaims, shivering safely in the boat and looking at the one who saved him. “You are a Godsend!”

A woman in a country torn by war is struck down by a random bullet, fired from a combatant’s gun. “Why did God let this happen?” the family questions. “God must be angry with us to have allowed this tragedy.”

Did God really do all these things? Does God sometimes unfairly get blamed, and other times perhaps wrongly get credited? What do we mean by “God,” and the actions of God? God the Father is commonly thought as unified person or entity that directs the events of the universe. One day He may decide to do this, and another day that. But like the laws of physics that are acting everywhere, all the time, simultaneously, I think the truth about the actions of God might be more nuanced. I contend that the actions of God and His kingdom are hierarchical and somewhat decentralized.

Imagine I decide to drink a glass of water. What actually happens is that the frontal lobes of my brain send commands to other parts of my brain, and my cerebellum then figures out what muscles need to move. And then the signal is sent to my spinal cord as an “upper motor neuron” command. My spinal cord takes this message and sends the signal out through a “lower motor neuron” to my muscles indicating a needed positioning. Special proprioceptive neurons in my muscles send back actual position signals, and my spinal cord keeps working with my muscles until they are in the correct position — independent of my higher neurologic functions. All of this is wrapped up in the concept of “I am drinking a glass of water.” “I” did all these things.

Imagine next a government of a country. In the old days the top of the government was a king who would issue decrees. This command would then trickle down through the various levels of organization until actual carried out. Modern governments may have more moving pieces, hopefully working better, but there is still the hierarchical flow from top-level command down to the lower officials.

Now let’s think about the Kingdom of God. We know from the Bible that God the Father issues commands, and that His servants carry them out. There are numerous examples of this in scripture. Daniel prays in Dan 11, and an angel comes to him saying, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.“ And Jesus, speaking of little children says, “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.” Thus in God’s government, in the Kingdom of God, there likewise seems to be a hierarchy with the Father at the top, and servants carrying out his commands.

None of this should be controversial, but I have lately been considering the consequences of this arrangement. I especially want to focus on the role of God’s servants and their individual contribution to achieving God’s purpose. The angel that visited Daniel was obviously acting in accordance to the plans and will of the Father, but he was presumably also using his best personal abilities to achieve these goals. And when Paul (formerly Saul) was sent to spread the gospel to the Gentiles, he was given general directions, but parts of the implementation were up to him. We know that he had formulated an independent plan in accordance to his best understanding of how to follow God’s instructions, when he planned to go preach in Asia. But this plan was corrected by the Holy Spirit. “Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.“ (Acts 16). Thus Paul had independence to work within the will of God, and was given a gentle nudge when he needed redirection. But all this would still be considered to be actions within the Kingdom of God.

So the Kingdom of God seems to be comprised of the Father giving top-level instruction and His servants solving on-the-ground problems to achieve these goals. Just like my brain wanting a drink of water, and the rest of my body figuring out how to achieve my desires.

Why am I spending so much time on this? Because I have often been inclined to think that following God’s will means to become an automaton, a robot with no independence. Yes, God’s commands set boundaries, but these are like what a parent would do when helping a toddler learn to walk, but not walk out into the street. God gave us drives to think and solve problems. And His desire is not to then frustrate us by dictate to our every move. A good summary is that God does not micromanage.

OK, I want to take this one level deeper. We know that the Father created the universe and set up its principles of actions. These apparent laws are so consistent that physicists can create mathematical formulas that will predict outcomes of experiments etc. Thus one could consider that the universe itself is yet another example of God’s servants — a mechanism of action that carries out His will. When the legendary apple fell from a tree, inspiring Isaac Newton to ponder the principles of gravity, the apple was following the will of God. And one could consider, in a certain point of view, that the apple was just another part of the Kingdom of God. And modern investigations into the realm of subatomic particles and quantum mechanics has shown that rather than operating like a machine or clockworks, that there is a randomness or uncertainty to all microscopic actions that may indicate that the Father, or other parts of the Kingdom of God, may be influencing the universe at this level on a second-by-second basis.

So what is proper to attribute to God, and what is not? If a Christian brother helps me out of a jam, is that the action of God? If a beautiful baby is born, I will praise God. But a baby born with a deformity is also formed in this same universe under God’s apparent control. And what about the fact that the child was conceived in the first place is under the individual control of the mother and father? I have a friend who believes that every element of the universe is under God’s control, and that therefore every action and every event is in direct accordance to the will of God. I disagree and believe instead that through the mystery of individuals having free will, events may occur that may be the result of the universe that God established, but that are not in accordance to His will. God did not want Cain to kill Abel. He personally came down and tried to talk Cain out of it, unfortunately without success.

I consider God’s universe to be like the surface of a pond. As a pebble thrown in causes an expanding ripple of consequences, so each action in the universe, following God’s rules of cause-and-effect, creates an ever-widening sphere of influence. When Adam and Eve failed to take God’s warnings seriously about the fruit on the tree in the Garden of Eden, they started a chain of events that ultimately led God’s son, Jesus, to surrender his life on the cross. The Father can see all these consequences and actively works to bring order and peace and love to His creation. He tried to dissuade Cain from murder (Gen 4), He gave His Son to save us from our sins, and He sends his angels to earth to hold back the winds of strife (Rev 7:1). If the Father, along with His Son, did not actively work for our benefit, the entire universe would devolve into chaos. Even seemingly innocent actions can cause ripples of unforeseen effects that cause big problems later. Every level of the Kingdom of God must rally around the leadership of the Father, who has the ultimate understanding on a best course of action. And the Father has the wisdom to allow each level of His government to make decisions on how best to work this out.

So to wrap this up, I conclude the following:

• God does not micromanage. He sends out His instruction, His words of truth, and allows His created beings so implement His commands, for the benefit of all.
• What is commonly called “God” may not be the direct action of the Father, but may instead be an action of an angel, or even a fellow human being.
• When God establishes a system of universal principles, sometimes bad things happen. E.g. Cain using the laws of physics to murder his brother Abel. But it is wrong to attribute this to God, because He is actively working to prevent this.

What do you all think? Am I off base? How do you think about the actions of God?

 

[RandyPNW]

So to wrap this up, I conclude the following:

• God does not micromanage. He sends out His instruction, His words of truth, and allows His created beings so implement His commands, for the benefit of all.
• What is commonly called “God” may not be the direct action of the Father, but may instead be an action of an angel, or even a fellow human being.
• When God establishes a system of universal principles, sometimes bad things happen. E.g. Cain using the laws of physics to murder his brother Abel. But it is wrong to attribute this to God, because He is actively working to prevent this.

What do you all think? Am I off base? How do you think about the actions of God?

Good questions! I also think about these kinds of things all the time! I think God, of course, controls absolutely everything. But He likes to delegate His control through free agents, including angels and men--we are close to "angels" as a class of free beings who carry out God's will independently through sometimes general and sometimes specific guidance.

I like to think there is an A plan and a B plan for Man after the Fall. The Fall consisted of a choice to act independent of God's will, setting in motion the B plan. The A plan is when Man returns to doing only what God is pleased with, and not rebelling against His word. The B plan comes about when we rebel against God's word and do the kinds of things that led to the Fall in the 1st place.

In all cases, what we do is either in conformity with God's word or in rebellion against it. At any rate, what we do is either following God's general guidance or His specific guidance. Generally, we're told to be free agents following a general program like, for example, "keeping the garden," "filling the earth with godly children," or "subduing the earth to produce the image of God on earth." These are general guidelines that accord with God's will.

On the other hand, there are times when we receive this kind of specific guidance that tell us, specifically, what we need to do. One day we many manufacture our own plans in accordance with the previous stated plan. But on another occasion, we may be told specifically what we must do, such as when we are given plans to begin with.

God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge. That was a specific command. After that, Adam could follow the general plan by living out his life eating of the other lawful trees, choosing whatever tree he wanted to eat from.

So God begins with a specific word, and we, as free agents, are able to decide things in accordance with this plan. It is the A plan. But when God's word has been frustrated, God does not lose control, but things begin to happen that appear to us like chaos, but really is the logical product of a system that has been tampered with.

The innocent child that dies is the product of parents who themselves are the product of people who have confused God's original plan. We cannot always understand the direct correlation between the one who sinned and the one who is the victim--we just know that there is a connection. There are always victims to aberrant behaviors, in connection with God's word. Since the victim is not always suffering from his own sin, things seem out of control.

In reality, the same word that determined a clean plan is also a redemptive word. This means that the B plan is always seeking a correction. Again, to understand this process would require a brain like God's. So I congratulate you on thinking through these things, as I do myself.

I will just say that I don't lose any sense of God's control over each and every minute things that happens in the universe. But it is all designed to be impacted by free agents. It just always has to result in God's judgment, which includes redemptive features. It will never spin out of control, since God's word is at the top of your "heirarchy."

 

[KevinT]

Good questions! I also think about these kinds of things all the time! I think God, of course, controls absolutely everything. But He likes to delegate His control through free agents, including angels and men--we are close to "angels" as a class of free beings who carry out God's will independently through sometimes general and sometimes specific guidance.
...

In reality, the same word that determined a clean plan is also a redemptive word. This means that the B plan is always seeking a correction. Again, to understand this process would require a brain like God's. So I congratulate you on thinking through these things, as I do myself.

I will just say that I don't lose any sense of God's control over each and every minute things that happens in the universe. But it is all designed to be impacted by free agents. It just always has to result in God's judgment, which includes redemptive features. It will never spin out of control, since God's word is at the top of your "heirarchy."

Randy, thank you for your reply. I will consider what you have written. I like your Plan A and Plan B. Ultimately there are things in life that we will understand better in the future. I think the question of God's "control" is likely a very complex issue that can be viewed from different perspectives. I created this post in part to get some thoughts down that have been swirling around in my head and wanted to see if they made sense to others.

Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[bling]

Everyone at some time in their life will ask: “How could a Loving God allow this (you fill in the tragedy) to happen?”

God realizes the need to address this with the first man:



Genesis 1: 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female, he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Gen. 2: 8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil….

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

No pain, no sorrow, no needy people, no death, wonderful activities, time with God, perfect mate for you, and no limited resources

So, can we trust in God’s promise of heaven?

The story of Adam and Eve explains why we are in this messed up world situation, but it is not Adam and Eve’s fault:

1. God desires is that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.

2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, “to never/ever sin”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) does not help an individual to want to take charity, especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.

3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in “all that God will do and allow to happen” are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell, death and tragedies of all kinds.

4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff, so death is not “bad” in and of itself.

5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will ever understand and desire such a Love.

6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin at least for a while. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love (the Bible and life teach us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”) If we realize and except forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by our sins, we will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) that is truly ours.

7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience, grow and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.

8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those tragedies around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Just healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get other people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility, but we could grow from the experience.

9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love (fulfill their objective).

Back to Adam and Eve prior to their sinning, they had no reason to humble themselves to the point of accept pure undeserved charity, since they were deserving, but after sin they could easily be humble.

OK

This messed up world (wars, famine, tragedies of all kind allow or even caused by God) is actually the very best place to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

We all look forward to being in heaven where there are no needy people, no sorrow, no death, and no sin.

This earth is not to be heaven, if we did not need this earth to be the way it is, we could all start out in heaven.

Is death bad in and of itself?

The same situation which strengths a person faith, will harden another person’s heart, so should God stop providing the message and/or the situation which will soften the accepting heart?

This world is full of tragedies, which can also be viewed as opportunities to help humans fulfill their earthly objective.



Looking at: Jesus’ explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

As he (Jesus) went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6 After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God, free will or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”

Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened (or Adam and Eve), but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.





I had a grandchild diagnosed with HLH at 10 months and was barely alive and we were told she would die soon, but she is today a strong, smart, beautiful 16-year-old. I can only thank God for.

I also have a grandchild born with CP and thought my prays would cure him, like I thought my prays healed my granddaughter and was really disappointed when he only got worse. Now he is 11, 80 lbs. and cannot walk, talk, drink, use any part of his body and has health issues. I cried over this many nights, until I spent time with my grandkids while my son and wife took a much-needed eight-day trip to Hawaii. His older two sisters and brother, got up at 4:30 each morning worked together, in his room at 5AM, changed diapers, bathed him, gave him lots of medicine through a tube, fed him, clothed him and got him to the bus half mile away by 6:45. I helped little (they let me feed him) and take care of the animals on the farm. They were all so mature, worked as a team, care so much for their brother, I was amazed. The whole family counted him as a huge blessing. They enjoyed him, enjoyed each other and knew what it meant to serve others. I could say a lot more about the whole family, with a lot being the result of this one child.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, thank you for your reply. I will consider what you have written. I like your Plan A and Plan B. Ultimately there are things in life that we will understand better in the future. I think the question of God's "control" is likely a very complex issue that can be viewed from different perspectives. I created this post in part to get some thoughts down that have been swirling around in my head and wanted to see if they made sense to others.

Thanks again for your feedback.

You're welcome. These are just my thoughts too, since the subject clearly transcends our finite limitations. As I just told someone else, I believe God is big enough to preside over an open system in which free agents make their own choices. God is not surprised by any of our choices, whether good or bad. Every choice we make will ultimately be processed through God's highest plan so that everything that happens, good or bad, ends up doing what God has promised will be done.

 

[KevinT]

Everyone at some time in their life will ask: “How could a Loving God allow this (you fill in the tragedy) to happen?”

......

I had a grandchild diagnosed with HLH at 10 months and was barely alive and we were told she would die soon, but she is today a strong, smart, beautiful 16-year-old. I can only thank God for.

I also have a grandchild born with CP and thought my prays would cure him, like I thought my prays healed my granddaughter and was really disappointed when he only got worse. Now he is 11, 80 lbs. and cannot walk, talk, drink, use any part of his body and has health issues. I cried over this many nights, until I spent time with my grandkids while my son and wife took a much-needed eight-day trip to Hawaii. His older two sisters and brother, got up at 4:30 each morning worked together, in his room at 5AM, changed diapers, bathed him, gave him lots of medicine through a tube, fed him, clothed him and got him to the bus half mile away by 6:45. I helped little (they let me feed him) and take care of the animals on the farm. They were all so mature, worked as a team, care so much for their brother, I was amazed. The whole family counted him as a huge blessing. They enjoyed him, enjoyed each other and knew what it meant to serve others. I could say a lot more about the whole family, with a lot being the result of this one child.

Bling,

Thank you for your reply, and sorry for my delayed response. I had not heard of HLH before (I think this means hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis), so I just went and read about it. It sounds like your granddaughter has done well, and that is wonderful!

I think I agree with everything you have written, but it seems that you were addressing the question of why there is evil and suffering in God's perfect creation. My post was rather lengthy and did start off in that vein, but that wasn't really what I was writing about.

I was considering that actions commonly attributed to "God" may have actually come not from the Father directly, but from a member of the Kingdom of God. Also that God's government is hierarchical and that at each level, the Father allows and expects individuals to use their intellect and abilities to solve real-world problems they may encounter while carrying out His overarching instructions. And finally, because each of the Father's servants have free will and because real-world problems can be solved in multiple ways, the state of the universe can progress in a manner that is not deterministic.

Thank you again for your response, and I pray that your other grandchild with CP will do OK and that your family will be blessed by his presence.

Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[KevinT]

You're welcome. These are just my thoughts too, since the subject clearly transcends our finite limitations. As I just told someone else, I believe God is big enough to preside over an open system in which free agents make their own choices. God is not surprised by any of our choices, whether good or bad. Every choice we make will ultimately by processed through God's highest plan so that everything that happens, good or bad, ends up doing what God has promised will be done.

I like this. As I read it, I pictured in my head a loving parent dealing with an errant child drawing on the living-room wall with Crayons. The parent patiently fixes the damage and years later the now-matured son can think back on how their parent lovingly cared for them and compensated for their actions. And the end result is even greater love between them. Thus the Father can handle any situation that arises. If a situation has no problems, then great. But if problems arise, He, or members of His kingdom, handle it and we love Him more because of it.
Kevin

 

[bling]

Bling,

Thank you for your reply, and sorry for my delayed response. I had not heard of HLH before (I think this means hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis), so I just went and read about it. It sounds like your granddaughter has done well, and that is wonderful!

I think I agree with everything you have written, but it seems that you were addressing the question of why there is evil and suffering in God's perfect creation. My post was rather lengthy and did start off in that vein, but that wasn't really what I was writing about.

I was considering that actions commonly attributed to "God" may have actually come not from the Father directly, but from a member of the Kingdom of God. Also that God's government is hierarchical and that at each level, the Father allows and expects individuals to use their intellect and abilities to solve real-world problems they may encounter while carrying out His overarching instructions. And finally, because each of the Father's servants have free will and because real-world problems can be solved in multiple ways, the state of the universe can progress in a manner that is not deterministic.

Thank you again for your response, and I pray that your other grandchild with CP will do OK and that your family will be blessed by his presence.

Best wishes,

Kevin

Man’s free will choices are very limited. Man can mentally make a free will choice, but that does not mean he is free to carry out that choice. He will be held accountable for the mental choice he made (God judges the hearts of people), but God can prevent him from doing anything God does not want to happen. A person’s desire at the button may be to destroy the world, but God will not allow him to push the button.

We are being treated very individually, with God doing all He can to help willing individuals to humbly accept His help (charity/forgiveness/grace/mercy/Love) as pure undeserved charity of our own free will (nothing else really matters).

This messed up world may not seem to be God’s doing, but it is actually the very best place for willing individuals to humbly accept God’s Love in forgiveness and thus Love. (Luke 7: 32-50). God is causing or allowing everything that is happening to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. This “everything” includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kind, death, evil, pain, suffering, hell and even sinning.

 

[KevinT]

Man’s free will choices are very limited. Man can mentally make a free will choice, but that does not mean he is free to carry out that choice. He will be held accountable for the mental choice he made (God judges the hearts of people), but God can prevent him from doing anything God does not want to happen. A person’s desire at the button may be to destroy the world, but God will not allow him to push the button.

We are being treated very individually, with God doing all He can to help willing individuals to humbly accept His help (charity/forgiveness/grace/mercy/Love) as pure undeserved charity of our own free will (nothing else really matters).

This messed up world may not seem to be God’s doing, but it is actually the very best place for willing individuals to humbly accept God’s Love in forgiveness and thus Love. (Luke 7: 32-50). God is causing or allowing everything that is happening to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. This “everything” includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kind, death, evil, pain, suffering, hell and even sinning.

Bling,

We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I feel that I have free will. You are stating that while we think we have free will, God actually will prevent us from "pushing the button." I don't know how we can objectively determine which of us is correct. I'm going on my feelings, and I suspect you are as well--though I don't really know. In my mind, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree, they did, and bad things followed. If God warned them to not do something, and then was secretly was behind them "disobeying" Him, that seems self-contradictory and wrong.

But I still appreciate your alternative view and wish you all the best.

Kevin

 

[bling]

Bling,

We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I feel that I have free will. You are stating that while we think we have free will, God actually will prevent us from "pushing the button." I don't know how we can objectively determine which of us is correct. I'm going on my feelings, and I suspect you are as well--though I don't really know. In my mind, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree, they did, and bad things followed. If God warned them to not do something, and then was secretly was behind them "disobeying" Him, that seems self-contradictory and wrong.

But I still appreciate your alternative view and wish you all the best.

Kevin

I am not at all saying: God is behind anyone sinning. God allowed Adam and Eve to do what they wanted to do. Just wanting to do some wrong is wrong for us, but for Adam and Eve there was only one way for them to sin and that was eating the fruit, so they had to follow through on their desire.
Just because God allows us to follow through on our mental choices does not make Him responsible for those mental choices, we already sinned with our minds. The carrying out of sins makes us better aware of our need for help.
Adam and Eve help us see our need for God's help and how this messed up world is actually the best place for us to fulfill our objective.

 

[KevinT]

I am not at all saying: God is behind anyone sinning. God allowed Adam and Eve to do what they wanted to do. Just wanting to do some wrong is wrong for us, but for Adam and Eve there was only one way for them to sin and that was eating the fruit, so they had to follow through on their desire.
Just because God allows us to follow through on our mental choices does not make Him responsible for those mental choices, we already sinned with our minds. The carrying out of sins makes us better aware of our need for help.
Adam and Eve help us see our need for God's help and how this messed up world is actually the best place for us to fulfill our objective.

Ahh, great! I agree with all this. We don't have to agree to disagree. Excellent!

Best wishes
Kevin