Were the Jews Really the Jews?

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Oneofhope

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I could use the help of those of you who have years of studying the Old Testament. I say that because there is a tremendous amount of Scripture to digest that can cause a person to wonder what the Nature of the Jews actually was at the time of Christ.

Is it possible that Israel had been infiltrated and/or, become corrupt because of the Jews' inability to keep themselves from procreating with the Nations considered abominations?

Does anyone have any estimations on how Pure or corrupt their Vine had become?

Thanks!

And by the way, because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we talk to each other with kindness and gentleness. Thank you.
 

RandyPNW

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I could use the help of those of you who have years of studying the Old Testament. I say that because there is a tremendous amount of Scripture to digest that can cause a person to wonder what the Nature of the Jews actually was at the time of Christ.

Is it possible that Israel had been infiltrated and/or, become corrupt because of the Jews' inability to keep themselves from procreating with the Nations considered abominations?

Does anyone have any estimations on how Pure or corrupt their Vine had become?

Thanks!

And by the way, because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we talk to each other with kindness and gentleness. Thank you.
I'm trying to understand your question because it seems loaded with some kind of concern about Israel being contaminated? And this has to do with Israel procreating with the nations how?

The Jews were told by God not to mix with the nations because they were pagan, and there was no program of evangelism. Israel had to become strengthened as a nation before they could launch out into the world making other nations like themselves.
 
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Philip_B

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The Jews have navigated diaspora in one way or another since the time of Abraham. they consistently had interactions with other peoples, that is the nature of diaspora. How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? The consistency with which they have maintained their cutural and spiritual identity is a great testimony to this as a true vine. Focussing on true bloodlines, or only firstborn, will leave you demented. When you read John 4 you will see that spirit is where God is found.
 
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Oneofhope

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I'm trying to understand your question because it seems loaded with some kind of concern about Israel being contaminated? And this has to do with Israel procreating with the nations how?

The Jews were told by God not to mix with the nations because they were pagan, and there was no program of evangelism. Israel had to become strengthened as a nation before they could launch out into the world making other nations like themselves.
My Bibles report that God views the inhabitants of Earth into three categories: Jews, Gentiles, and abominations. God authorized intermarriage with the Gentiles, for they are of the same family. They were not allowed to intermarry with the abominations, those who do not belong to God, but are of the Devil.
 
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Oneofhope

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The Jews have navigated diaspora in one way or another since the time of Abraham. they consistently had interactions with other peoples, that is the nature of diaspora. How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? The consistency with which they have maintained their cutural and spiritual identity is a great testimony to this as a true vine. Focussing on true bloodlines, or only firstborn, will leave you demented. When you read John 4 you will see that spirit is where God is found.
Hello Philip. Thank you for sharing. I'm a bit confused, however. Throughout the Blessed Jew's history, at least according to the Bibles I'm reading, they consistently struggled with intermixing with the Canaanites, Hittites, etc. These were the abominations that God called to be wiped out . . . because they were the offspring of fallen Angels. These are the "people-ish" that caused the Israelites so much, well, death. Throughout Israel's history, God was purging from the Hebrews that which was not Pure. He did this consistently because Israel consistently disobeyed (in this manner).

Isn't that what your Bibles report?
 
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Oneofhope

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The Jews have navigated diaspora in one way or another since the time of Abraham. they consistently had interactions with other peoples, that is the nature of diaspora. How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? The consistency with which they have maintained their cutural and spiritual identity is a great testimony to this as a true vine. Focussing on true bloodlines, or only firstborn, will leave you demented. When you read John 4 you will see that spirit is where God is found.
Ahhhh . . . I forgot to thank you for introducing me to the word Diaspora. I've added that to my personal Bible dictionary. Serious thumbs up for that.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I could use the help of those of you who have years of studying the Old Testament. I say that because there is a tremendous amount of Scripture to digest that can cause a person to wonder what the Nature of the Jews actually was at the time of Christ.

Is it possible that Israel had been infiltrated and/or, become corrupt because of the Jews' inability to keep themselves from procreating with the Nations considered abominations?

Does anyone have any estimations on how Pure or corrupt their Vine had become?

Thanks!

And by the way, because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we talk to each other with kindness and gentleness. Thank you.
Throughout Jewish history there was only a remnant of Israel that remained faithful. Part of this group moved forward to bring in the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Both lineages are in the New Testament. That being said, the faithful remnant were a mixed multitude as well . The only difference was the condition of their heart towards the God of Israel. Blessings.
 
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RandyPNW

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My Bibles report that God views the inhabitants of Earth into three categories: Jews, Gentiles, and abominations. God authorized intermarriage with the Gentiles, for they are of the same family. They were not allowed to intermarry with the abominations, those who do not belong to God, but are of the Devil.
Yes, when the various groups are not pagan they may interact and perhaps find religious unity among them. But in the OT era, when the Jewish nation was developing into a holy nation, the other nations were pagan and God required a temporary separation between them.

The NT era became an opportunity for Israel, now developed into a holy nation, to reach out to other nations, even though the members of Israel qualified to do this were quite small. When members of those other nations obtained a common religion they could indeed experience a common fellowship.
 
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Oneofhope

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Yes, when the various groups are not pagan they may interact and perhaps find religious unity among them. But in the OT era, when the Jewish nation was developing into a holy nation, the other nations were pagan and God required a temporary separation between them.

The NT era became an opportunity for Israel, now developed into a holy nation, to reach out to other nations, even though the members of Israel qualified to do this were quite small. When members of those other nations obtained a common religion they could indeed experience a common fellowship.
Curious. Why are you not acknowledging the Seven Nations? God doesn't avoid them in His Scriptures . . . why are you?
 
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RandyPNW

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Curious. Why are you not acknowledging the Seven Nations? God doesn't avoid them in His Scriptures . . . why are you?
I don't even know what you're referring to? What "Seven Nations?" The "Canaanites?

I didn't know that was the question. Did you mention "Seven Nations" yourself? Are you avoiding mentioning them?

As I said, Israel was not allowed to mix with the pagan nations, which included those who had lived in Canaan previously. As you may realize, God waited a long time before destroying the Canaanites. He waited a long time until they had become so despicably wicked that they were beyond redemption. They were, like the Gaza terrorists today, educating their children from youth in evil living.

So God wanted them destroyed. He didn't want Israel to remotely become like them. No mixing with them--just destroy them.
 
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Oneofhope

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Are you avoiding mentioning them?
That is a most unusual question. I'll assume you were very tired . . . or something.

Deuteronomy 7:1 NLT - 1 "When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are greater and more numerous than you."

Acts 13:19 NLT - "Then he destroyed seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to Israel as an inheritance."
 
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The Liturgist

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I could use the help of those of you who have years of studying the Old Testament. I say that because there is a tremendous amount of Scripture to digest that can cause a person to wonder what the Nature of the Jews actually was at the time of Christ.

Is it possible that Israel had been infiltrated and/or, become corrupt because of the Jews' inability to keep themselves from procreating with the Nations considered abominations?

Does anyone have any estimations on how Pure or corrupt their Vine had become?

Thanks!

And by the way, because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we talk to each other with kindness and gentleness. Thank you.

Firstly, what difference does it make? A large percentage of the adherents of Second Temple Judaism converted to Christianity. Indeed, if we look at, as I noted in another thread, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also various Roman Catholic schisms from them, such as the Melkite Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, and Maronite Catholics, these two groups, along with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, are largely descended from Second Temple Jews, and also from converts from later Rabinnical and Karaite Judaism, for example the Syriac Orthodox bishop Mar Gregorios bar Hebraeus. Additionally, the Mar Thoma Christians of Kerala and the Malabar Coast are descended largely from the Kochin Jews, who first arrived in Kerala, India following Alexander the Great in the 2nd century BC, and there continued to be a substantial Jewish community in Kerala until the end of the British Raj, when most moved to India, but they still own their historic main synagogue, the Paradesi Synagogue.

It is small in comparison with the cathedrals and many parish churches of the St. Thomas (Mar Thoma) Christians, some of whom are members of an endogamous ethnically Jewish sub-ethnic group descended from the survivors of a shipwreck, who upon their deliverance converted to Christianity and are a part of the same denominations (primarily, the Syriac Orthodox Church and the schismatic Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which has the same liturgy, but seeks to be independent of the Patriarch of Antioch, and has treated those Syriac Orthodox under the Patriarch of Antioch, known as the Jacobites, rather poorly with lawsuits over church property), and the Syro Malabar Catholic Church, and a portion of the Assyrian Church of the East. The Indian church is part of the continuum of Syriac Aramaic speaking Christianity, which like the Church in Edessa and Mesopotamia, was evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle, who together with his disciples Saints Addai and Mari, who were members of the seventy, reached Kerala, where an enraged Maharajah threw a javelin at him, in which manner St. Thomas received the crown of martyrdom in 53 AD. Thus, the Christians of India are called St. Thomas Christians (or Mar Thoma Christians in Syriac and the hybrid Syro-West Indian language, Malayalam). Some of them are also Protestants, members of the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which was the result of a rogue Syriac Orthodox bishop conniving with the British East India Company, who agreed to release the gold that the Orthodox had deposited with their banking division in the early 19th century only to the aforementioned bishop, in return for that bishop setting up a church that was doctrinally fairly generically Protestant, much like Anglicanism, and today that church is a member of the Anglican communion.

Then we have the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, who are almost entirely descended from the Beta Israel, the Abyssinian Jews, who had converted following the conversion of the Kandake, the Queen of Sheba, whose son Prince Solomon was the result of her affair with King Solomon as recorded in the Bible. The Beta Israel also extensively intermarried with the Jews in Israel. Most of those who still practiced Judaism were evacuated to the State of Israel in the late 1970s after the rise of the anti-Semitic Derg Communist regime, which strangled the highly respected Emperor Haile Selassie, who was a Christian, the last Emperor of the Solomonic dynasty, who was tolerant of the Jews (he styled himself the “Lion of Judah.”

Secondly, in Scripture we see Israel procreating under legitimate conditions with persons who converted from other nations. Ruth comes to mind. Also the Queen of Sheba. So the idea that the Israelites expanding their gene pool by marrying converts from other nationalities being an abomination makes no sense. Now if they married persons of other ethnicities who did not convert to Judaism, well, that has also happened quite a lot actually, and in Rabinnical Judaism, someone is only considered Jewish if their mother is Jewish; conversely, in Karaite Judaism and, as far as I know, Samaritanism and the Beta Israel, Judaism is Patrilneal. One might say it is frowned upon, but the question you pose is hypothetical and has no bearing on Christian salvation, or indeed on Jewish salvation, because the path for adherents of Judaism to be saved is the same as for anyone else, which is to be baptized into the Christian church and receive the Eucharist, thus being grafted onto the Body of Christ, as described clearly in 1 Corinthians and in Matthew 28:19, and thus benefit from faith in Christ and the eternal life this promises, as we are assured in John 3:14.

Finally, I would say that Rabinnical Judaism and Karaite Judaism have become very different from how they were in the Second Temple era; I recently wrote about that in this thread: loyalty to the people of Israel?
 
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RandyPNW

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That is a most unusual question. I'll assume you were very tired . . . or something.

Deuteronomy 7:1 NLT - 1 "When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are greater and more numerous than you."

Acts 13:19 NLT - "Then he destroyed seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to Israel as an inheritance."
Not at all. You suggested I was "avoiding" mentioning the "Seven Nations." Where did you pose a question about the Seven Nations?
 
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RandyPNW

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I'm not here to play games. I wish you the very best.
I'm not playing games, and resent your judgmental suggestion that I am playing games. I asked you a pointblank question, and you refuse to answer. Why are you suggesting I "avoided addressing the 7 Nations" when you asked no question about them? If you can't answer I'll just have to conclude you're unable to answer.
 
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I could use the help of those of you who have years of studying the Old Testament. I say that because there is a tremendous amount of Scripture to digest that can cause a person to wonder what the Nature of the Jews actually was at the time of Christ.

Is it possible that Israel had been infiltrated and/or, become corrupt because of the Jews' inability to keep themselves from procreating with the Nations considered abominations?

Does anyone have any estimations on how Pure or corrupt their Vine had become?

Thanks!

And by the way, because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we talk to each other with kindness and gentleness. Thank you.

Our Lord Jesus Christ had a Moabite woman (Ruth) as part of His lineage.

Jewishness, Israel-ness, was never about bloodlines. It was always about Covenant. A Gentile who converted, who became part of the People of Israel, was no longer a Gentile but a Jew--fully and completely.

The Jews at the time of the Lord Jesus were Jews. It simply doesn't matter what their DNA composition looked like, that's not how the Torah, nor God, determined whether one was a member of the Covenant people.

It was that way from the beginning, from the very time the Covenant was given. In Exodus 12:38 we read of a "mixed multitude" who were with them as they left Egypt. Not only the Hebrew slaves who descended from Jacob's sons who entered Egypt centuries earlier, but others came with them and were with them. And all were gathered at the base of the mountain, and God gave Covenant with them. At that moment Hebrews and non-Hebrews alike were Israel, children of God's Covenant and Promise.

Focusing on "pure blood" is a modern, and actually rather racist, perspective. There is no such thing as "pure blood", all human beings are mixed of the panoply of all our ancestors.

The particular configuration of our genome is irrelevant, it has never mattered to God. What matters is that we are all the fallen and broken children of Adam; and through God's good will and love toward His creation He has established His purposes and promises down through the ages, to give us Christ, our Savior. He who is the New Adam, and who by Grace and Covenant in His shed blood makes us brand new in Himself; that the stain and chains of Adam's sin and the death wrought upon us all should be undone, and we all become cleansed and unshackled in the freedom of the Son of God, to life everlasting.

God doesn't care about our genome, He cares about us. That none should perish, but all come to repentance and have life.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Oneofhope

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Our Lord Jesus Christ had a Moabite woman (Ruth) as part of His lineage.

Jewishness, Israel-ness, was never about bloodlines. It was always about Covenant. A Gentile who converted, who became part of the People of Israel, was no longer a Gentile but a Jew--fully and completely.

The Jews at the time of the Lord Jesus were Jews. It simply doesn't matter what their DNA composition looked like, that's not how the Torah, nor God, determined whether one was a member of the Covenant people.

It was that way from the beginning, from the very time the Covenant was given. In Exodus 12:38 we read of a "mixed multitude" who were with them as they left Egypt. Not only the Hebrew slaves who descended from Jacob's sons who entered Egypt centuries earlier, but others came with them and were with them. And all were gathered at the base of the mountain, and God gave Covenant with them. At that moment Hebrews and non-Hebrews alike were Israel, children of God's Covenant and Promise.

Focusing on "pure blood" is a modern, and actually rather racist, perspective. There is no such thing as "pure blood", all human beings are mixed of the panoply of all our ancestors.

The particular configuration of our genome is irrelevant, it has never mattered to God. What matters is that we are all the fallen and broken children of Adam; and through God's good will and love toward His creation He has established His purposes and promises down through the ages, to give us Christ, our Savior. He who is the New Adam, and who by Grace and Covenant in His shed blood makes us brand new in Himself; that the stain and chains of Adam's sin and the death wrought upon us all should be undone, and we all become cleansed and unshackled in the freedom of the Son of God, to life everlasting.

God doesn't care about our genome, He cares about us. That none should perish, but all come to repentance and have life.

-CryptoLutheran
Are you talking about the Bible? As in, the 66 Book . . . Bible?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Are you talking about the Bible? As in, the 66 Book . . . Bible?

Yes, the Bible. Doesn't have to be the 66 book Bible, it could be the 73 book Bible. Regardless of what Bible one reads, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox; God isn't concerned with genomes, God operates through Covenant. Covenant doesn't care about DNA, but rather the disposition of the heart toward the things of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Oneofhope

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Yes, the Bible. Doesn't have to be the 66 book Bible, it could be the 73 book Bible. Regardless of what Bible one reads, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox; God isn't concerned with genomes, God operates through Covenant. Covenant doesn't care about DNA, but rather the disposition of the heart toward the things of God.

-CryptoLutheran
Thank you for sharing. The 18 different translations I use, including the Tanakh, say otherwise.

I wish you the best.
 
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Thank you for sharing. The 18 different translations I use, including the Tanakh, say otherwise.

I wish you the best.

Can you offer a biblical citation that says that God cares about the configuration of genomes? I'd like to see you back up that assertion with biblical evidence.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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