Were the Jews Really the Jews?

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for sharing. The 18 different translations I use, including the Tanakh, say otherwise.

I wish you the best.

That’s what you claim, but you haven’t shown it; the entire premise that Judaism requires a purity of blood is directly contradicted by the Book of Ruth, which is accepted as canonical by everyone except the Samaritans, and even the Samaritans are not entirely of Hebraic descent, indeed lately they have, in order to increase genetic diversity in their extremely small population (which numbers less than a thousand) been marrying presumably Slavic women, who converted to their religion (likely from atheism, and not from Holy Orthodoxy) who hail from the former USSR for the past 15 years or so.

 

[The Liturgist]

Can you offer a biblical citation that says that God cares about the configuration of genomes? I'd like to see you back up that assertion with biblical evidence.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, so would I. Especially if the assertion is that it is relevant to Christian salvation, as that would appear to contradict Matthew 28:19.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That’s what you claim, but you haven’t shown it; the entire premise that Judaism requires a purity of blood is directly contradicted by the Book of Ruth, which is accepted as canonical by everyone except the Samaritans, and even the Samaritans are not entirely of Hebraic descent, indeed lately they have, in order to increase genetic diversity in their extremely small population (which numbers less than a thousand) been marrying presumably Slavic women, who converted to their religion (likely from atheism, and not from Holy Orthodoxy) who hail from the former USSR for the past 15 years or so.

This is totally an aside, but history has not been very kind to the Samaritans.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

This is totally an aside, but history has not been very kind to the Samaritans.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed. That said there are around eight times more of them now than there were a hundred years ago, so that was fortunate. I pray for the Samaritans; I don’t want them to go extinct; my dream is for their eventual conversion into a Samaritan Orthodox Church.

Also their Torah scrolls are uniquely beautiful, as are the vestments of their clergy, and no one does more majestic pavillions for the Feast of Tabernacles than the Samaritans. I absolutely love their culture and it grieves me that the Byzantine Empire and the Muslims together nearly exterminated them.

Also the Samaritan Torah, despite its inaccuracies, is important in one respect, that being that it is written in a script that is a derivative or close relation to the Paleo-Hebrew script, unlike the Jews, who have used a subset of the Imperial Aramaic “square letter” alphabet since at least the Babylonian Captivity, if I recall.

By the way, I have in my liturgical library an exceedingly rare English translation of the Defter, which is the Samaritan prayer book, equivalent to a Jewish Siddur (which I have translations of both the Ashkenazi and Karaite varieties). The 1906 Jewish encyclopedia hinted at traces of Islamic influence in the Defter but I don’t see it, and the same encyclopedia is extremely disparaging of the Karaite liturgy.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Vine Is Yeshua. He Is Pure, Without even a hint of nor a spot nor a wrinkle of corruption.

Indeed, “I am the true Vine.”

But with respect to his humanity, via St. Mary the Theotokos, he is descended in part from Ruth.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yes, the Bible. Doesn't have to be the 66 book Bible, it could be the 73 book Bible. Regardless of what Bible one reads, Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox; God isn't concerned with genomes, God operates through Covenant. Covenant doesn't care about DNA, but rather the disposition of the heart toward the things of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Sorry, not following the argument, but this statement that "God isn't concerned with genomes" is on its face untrue. Of course God is concerned with genomes if He made them! Do you care about your blood family? Of course you do.

Where I will agree with you is in the sense you may be claiming this, that God is impartial. If that's what you're trying to say, then yes--God is impartial.

 

[The Liturgist]

Pardon me but that looks like a non sequitur - Jesus is the Truth , the True Vine, Set Apart , and nothing today can change that.

It is a reply to the question posed by the OP about the purity of the Vine of Israel and his assertion this is incompatible with the presence of “the nations” in the bloodstream of Israel, which makes no sense given the conversion of Ruth, for example.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Pardon me but that looks like a non sequitur - Jesus is the Truth , the True Vine, Set Apart , and nothing today can change that.

The point being made was simply that, when looking at the Lord's geneology, if one cares about something silly like "pure bloodline", Jesus doesn't have that, as Ruth is one of His ancestors, and she wasn't born a Jew, but was a Moabite who converted to Judaism (therefore, making her still a Jew; but totally destroying any idea of "pure bloodline").

This thread set out to ask if the Jews of Jesus' time were "pure Jews", a question that is fundamentally and inherently meaningless; because a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, regardless of ancestry. Jesus wasn't somehow less Jewish because Ruth was His great-great-great.........great grandmother. Which is what "pure bloodline" language would inevitably have to conclude.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry, not following the argument, but this statement that "God isn't concerned with genomes" is on its face untrue. Of course God is concerned with genomes if He made them! Do you care about your blood family? Of course you do.

Where I will agree with you is in the sense you may be claiming this, that God is impartial. If that's what you're trying to say, then yes--God is impartial.

I believe what our friend @ViaCrucis wrote could also be expressed along these lines: just as God is no respecter of persons, He is no respecter of ethnicities. @ViaCrucis, does that sound correct?

I mean @RandyPNW it seems fairly clear that in the context of the discussion ViaCrucis is not saying “God doesn‘t care about the health of your genome, or is indifferent to the existence of the genetic system, or ambivalent about it” but is rather asserting that the ethnic identity of individuals is not relevant to their purity or their hope of salvation.

 

[The Liturgist]

The point being made was simply that, when looking at the Lord's geneology, if one cares about something silly like "pure bloodline", Jesus doesn't have that, as Ruth is one of His ancestors, and she wasn't born a Jew, but was a Moabite who converted to Judaism (therefore, making her still a Jew; but totally destroying any idea of "pure bloodline").

This thread set out to ask if the Jews of Jesus' time were "pure Jews", a question that is fundamentally and inherently meaningless; because a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, regardless of ancestry. Jesus wasn't somehow less Jewish because Ruth was His great-great-great.........great grandmother. Which is what "pure bloodline" language would inevitably have to conclude.

-CryptoLutheran

Beautifully written my friend!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sorry, not following the argument, but this statement that "God isn't concerned with genomes" is on its face untrue. Of course God is concerned with genomes if He made them! Do you care about your blood family? Of course you do.

Where I will agree with you is in the sense you may be claiming this, that God is impartial. If that's what you're trying to say, then yes--God is impartial.

God has made us and everything. Wolves, and their domesticated descendants, the many different types of dogs that exist. What I don't think God cares about is if a dog is a "purebred"--which is actually a very silly idea. While human beings are not dogs, we are, like our canine friends, a diverse lot with all sorts of genomic combinations and compositions; based on various factors affecting our genetic makeup. My genes happen to express themselves in such a way that I have very little melanin in my skin, so I'm quite light-skinned; as a consequence I burn easily from exposure to UV radiation; those same genes also affect the color of my hair and eyes. So my skin is "white" (not really, it's really more of very pale and very light pinkish hue), and my hair is "red" (not really, it's more of an orangey-rusty color). And while I share genetic traits with recent ancestors, if my genome were sequenced I'd be unshocked to learn that my ancestry going back the last 500 or so years comes primarily from populations from North-Western Europe. Keep going back and it's going to get more and more complicated due to cultural migrations, military conquests of this or that tribe, kingdom, or empire. Keep going back far enough and my oldest ancestors (like all humans alive today) came from Africa.

When it comes to God's people, whether Old Covenant or New Covenant, genes were never important--what mattered was the Covenant. Whether those at the base of Mt. Horeb was of the Hebrew people or of the mixed multitude who went with them out of Egypt, on that day Moses came down with the tablets of stone they were all Jews. And so in Jesus' day, all Jews were Jews--theirs was the Covenant God established in Sinai. And in Christ, who brings New Covenant, even the old distinction between Jew and non-Jew doesn't matter; but by faith in the Messiah all are united together as the one new people; a people of circumcised hearts and purified consciences.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe what our friend @ViaCrucis wrote could also be expressed along these lines: just as God is no respecter of persons, He is no respecter of ethnicities. @ViaCrucis, does that sound correct?

Right. It's of no concern to God, what our made up divisions we create amongst ourselves based on arbitrary choices; or based on who our great-great-great....great grandparents were or where they lived. It doesn't matter what color our skin, or what particular facial features we have, or how many freckles or lack thereof we have. That is all entirely superfluous as it pertains to God as He gives Himself to us in Christ; and how He has guided history toward Christ since the beginning of the universe.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


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