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The Antichrist

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by john316, Nov 25, 2001.

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  1. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    To Mizdoulos, who said on Jan. 7, 2002, “Truthseeker, I should have said temporary world peace. Revelation 6:2 speaks of the White Horse which represents an unparalled time of world peace --- a false peace that is to be short-lived. This peace will be ushered in by a series of false messiahs, culminating with the Antichrist. (The Mac Arthur Study Bible, p. 2000)” I can see that your position is the spitting image of John MacArthur’s position.

    Can you share with us why this white horse represents unparalleled time of world peace? I don’t see it. In context of this verse you referenced the “he” that sat on this white horse with a bow went about conquering. Doesn’t sound like peace, but maybe I missed something elsewhere.

    Mizdoulos also said, “Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things be? And what <i>will</i> be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?' And Jesus answered and said to them: 'Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. (Matt. 24:3,4)

    Since Christ represents peace, He's warning us to beware of the deceivers in the End Times that will bring this temporary false peace, culminating with the Antichrist. Some identify the horse with Antichrist. The main thought here is that the whole world will follow the antichrist into a false belief of peace.”

    Matthew 24 speaks of these things on “this generation”. Does that mean anything to you? To quote it says in Matthew 24:34, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Who do you believe this generation referred to in the context of the passage?
     
  2. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    To Rkbo, from Jan 10, 2001, who used scripture references from Matthew 24: I also ask you the same question I asked Mizdoulos. Jesus explicitly states in Matthew 24:34, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

    Does this mean anything to you? Who do you believe this generation referred to in the context of the passage?
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello jbenjesus,
    A believe the pre-trib theory unlike yourself. There is a difference between the church and the trib saints. The church are the five wise virgins who were ready to meet their bridegroom. The trib saints are the other five that were caught off guard by His coming. These are the five foolish ones who were told to go buy their oil. Gods grace is no longer free for them. They will have to pay with their lives, because they will also have to refuse the Mark of the Beast. They will still get to heaven, but the hard way. Matt. 25:1-13.

    The rest of your question can be found in Daniel chapter 7.
     
  4. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    To rollinThunder,

    My comments are in blue:


    Hello jbenjesus,
    A believe the pre-trib theory unlike yourself.

    No need to get defensive. I just like to know clearly where people stand, listen to them first for their why’s.

    There is a difference between the church and the trib saints.

    What is the difference to you? If the church is the body of Christ, and all saints are baptized into one body, what makes the church different from "trib saints"? All saint’s are in one body, correct? Or is their something of God that we can be in that is separate and apart from His body?

    The church are the five wise virgins who were ready to meet their bridegroom. The trib saints are the other five that were caught off guard by His coming. These are the five foolish ones who were told to go buy their oil. Gods grace is no longer free for them. They will have to pay with their lives, because they will also have to refuse the Mark of the Beast. They will still get to heaven, but the hard way. Matt. 25:1-13.

    According to your reference in Matthew 25, I do not untie it from chapters 24, 23, 22 & even 21. Jesus was in the priestal precinct (temple) warding off attacks of His character and the questioning of His authority. He gives at least 4 parables concerning the kingdom of God and who truly is and is not in that kingdom (Parable of the two children – parable of the vineyard – parable of the marriage feast – parable of the ten virgins). All of the parables were spoken against the religious leaders of his day contesting Him.

    Your interpretation of the church being the five wise virgins and the “trib saints” being the other five who got left out, doesn’t fit in the context of the chapters.


    The rest of your question can be found in Daniel chapter 7.

    I’m sorry. I don’t see a revived Roman empire in chapter 7. I see Rome, but not revived. It is the Rome that has passed already that it speaks of. Could you elaborate from Daniel chapter 7 how you see that Rome fell and was revived again?
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hey jbenjesus,
    Don't worry, I'm not getting defensive. You have good questions, but I'm short of time now. One last answer though. Lets go to Rev. 3:10- "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.".

    Take a closer look at His promise here. He will keep you from ??
    Keep you from the trial- NO. Keep you from the test-NO. He said He would keep us from the hour, or the time. We won't be in time anymore. We will be in eternity, in heaven. He will keep us out of the hour of trial.

    Look in Daniel 7: 23-25, The 10 kings will come from the fourth kingdom (Roman Empire). Gotta go now.
     
  6. jtc

    jtc New Member

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    going to church does not save you,believing will not save you. the churches are the antichrist. in the end times jesus kept telling us to beware of all the false christs and false prophets that come in his name. there are over 2500 different religions today and they have all added to and taken away from the bible. in timothy it talks about the end times people wont endur sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers. God never stopped calling apostles ephesians 4:11 1st corin12:27. 1st john 3:6-9 john 8 :34 -37 jesus was normal sinful flesh like us. he was able to live sin free because he was born of the holy spirit and thats why we have to be born of the spirit"born again" jesus said in the end times the love of many will wax cold because iniquity wil abound. knowone can believe that anyone can live sin free because of how evil the world is. 1st john 3:5 we know jesus took away are sin "he did not saves us in our sins but from our sins"and in him is no sin whosoever abideth in him sinneth notwhoever sinneth has not seen him. knowone who is in christ will sin. that is why he said it will be like the times of noah only 8 were saved out of the whole world were saved.he said many people will try to enter in and fail. he said you have to strive to enter in. jesus's people are peculliar and holy.if you are a sinner you are no different from any one in the world.1st john 3:8 whoever sinneth is of the devil. by saying when your saved you keep sinning your saying the devil is more powerful than God because the spirit theson and the father are one and jesus said that if you obey him he and the father will make an abode in you. it all comes down to obedience. john 14:15 if you love me keep my commandments. 1st john chapter1, 2 and 5 your a liar if you walk in darkness if you dont keep his commandments you dont love him and you are a liar. jesus destroyed the works of the devil if you are still sinning jesus is not in you because your works are not destroyed. people say look at first john 1:9 well look at verse 3 he is not writing just to christain he says i am writing so you may also have fellowship with us. that proves he was not writing to believers only the first thing you have to do is admit your a sinner. he is faithful and just to forgive you and he will cleanse you from all unrighteousness. so if you are still sinning he has not not cleansed you from all unrighteousness and he is a liar. he cant lie you lie if you say your born again and the devil is still winning. this means 1 st john 3 does not contradict 1st john 3:6,9. it also agrees with hebrew 10:26 and 6:4. the only way to get the holy spirit to live in you is by repenting and being baptized by an apostle and have the laying on of his his hands acts 8:18 hebrews 6:2 and many other parts of acts. people bring up cornelius it does not say they were born of the spirit it says it fell upon them. it fell upon many people in the old testament and myself before i got saved. it couldnt live in me because i had not been born again. peter commanded them to be baptized so they could have their old man and all his deeds buried and rise a new creature. perfect and holy 2nd corin 5:17 peter even tells us that baptism doth now save us i think the verse is 1st pet 3:21 and jesus said unless your born of the water and the spirit and when jesus got baptized he said he had done it to fulfill all righteousness. its not an outward act to the world what blasphemy your adding to the word of God when you say that and your taking away from the word of god when you say you still sin when your saved and when you say their are no more apostles and when you say you dont need baptized. Jesus said when he returns many will say ley us in and he will say i never knew you depart from me. matthew 7:21-24. people love romans 10:9 and john 3:16 and they also love their sins. in timothy it says God kows who are his and let everyone who names the name of christ depart from iniquity. The bible never contradicts itself 1st john 3 :9 does not mean you dont practice sin paul says a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump and luke 13:3 and john 8:34 whosoever commiteth a sin is a servant of sin if you sin your not in christ . who do you think the anti christ is every church has told me you will never stop sinning and only jesus could live without sinning. tottally contradicts the bible
     
  7. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    To rollinThunder,

    I don't see the relevance of Rev. 3:10 regading the questions or comments I had toward you. I've read Daniel today concerning the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom. It still does not address why you have shot those references into our future and not recognizing the past kingdom of Rome.

    jtc: Your heart is on to something, but you might want to next time put it in a thread that is more pertinent to what you are sharing. Many will miss out on what you have to say because they're looking in the wrong place. :)
     
  8. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

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    jtc: Your heart is on to something, but you might want to next time put it in a thread that is more pertinent to what you are sharing. Many will miss out on what you have to say because they're looking in the wrong place.

    (I think that was an accident...That post was originally on another thread)
     
  9. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    jtc, it offends me when you say, Jesus" was a liar" and "Jesus was sinful flesh". I think that's blasphemy.I understand the rest of your comments, but the antichrist is not the church. I thought this thread was about the antichrist & I see a lot of catholic bashing. Never in my life have I heard anyone say that the Catholics wrote the Quran & raised Osmama BEEN LAiden. I think I've heard everything now. Some folks act like they never read the book of James. It is a legitamite book of the Bible. Catholics believe in the same Biblical Jesus we do. Their denomination has it's faults, but name one denomination that doesn't. Book of James says to leave them alone. FYI--- I am non denominational, but be advised this current Pope says we are living in the end times & he discussed the rapture. He proclaims Jesus is Lord. He is not the false prophet or Antichrist. Test the next Pope. This one passes the test. I see no scriptural evidence that the rapture occurs before the trib. It occurs at the 7th trump=Rev 11:15 verified by 1 Cor. 15:51-52 & Rev. 10:7. We may not know the day or the hour but I bet it says that because we WILL know the year. As for the Antichrist, he is assisted by the false prophet. I have heard that King Carlos of Spain( good article above ty) also holds a royalty title handed down to him from his mother's side of the family. The article didn't mention his mother. "King of Bethleham" is the title handed down to him from his mother's descendants. I cannot prove it.
     
  10. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Thank you for your long post.

    I am sure that the teachings of some churches would be wrong but it would not be fair to claim that "all churches are the antichrist".

    Your line that "Jesus was normal sinful flesh like us" is going to raise a few more eyebrows though! :) I'm not too sure whether we all will agree with that term. Because he did not come by way of the Seed of Adam but conception by the Holy Spirit.

    But yes, even though he was born in human flesh from a daughter of Eve*, Jesus was sinless- even though he was flesh he conquered SIN and the temptations of Satan!

    *In some sections of Christianity, esp the Catholics and Anglicans, some Christians regard Mary as being without sin when she conceived Jesus Christ. Let's discuss this on another thread though :)

    Cheers and welcome to the Prophecy Forum jtc,

    Regards,
    Yau-ming

     
  11. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

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    I believe the anti-Christ is someone representative of the one world government and the uniting of all religions, including Chrisianity. And the false idol god is prosperity.
    Watch the Trilateral Commission, and treaties like NAFTA.
     
  12. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    But I guess this forum is for sharing opinions as well.

    When will we get passed our personal opinions parroting what others have taught us and seek for ourselves what the truth of the matter really is.

    Everybody shares "the antichrist" is this or that.

    I will share this in hopes that you will start seeking out the truth for yourself.

    Did you know the word "antichrist" is used a grand total of:

    (Drumroll)

    4 times in the whole bible! (Ching!)

    John said, "...ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. "

    John said that they had heard antichrist shall come, but that presently already there were many antichrists, and b/c of this we know it's the last time. John said he was in the last days already. Was John deceived? Was he wrong? Is this text of the scriptures not inspired by God.

    Notice also there is no "the antichrist" here which this thread is proposing. There is a "that antichrist".

    John said, identifying antichrist, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. "

    He that denieth that Jesus is the Christ, God manifest in the flesh (I Tim. 3:16), denieth the Father and the Son. Who was doing that in John's day? He said there were already many antichrists! Answer: false prophets and false teachers - wolves in sheeps clothing - men in his day that were misleading the sheep of God.

    John said referring to "that spirit", "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

    Did everybody see that? "This is that" which we are trying to talk about in this thread.

    John is now clarifiying that "that antichrist" which he has been talking to them about is "that spirit of anitchrist" that confesses from men's mouth that Jesus Christ is not come in the flesh (I Tim. 3:16). He spoke knowing that it would come, yet, he recognized that it was presently in the world (PRESENT TENSE used by John).

    John explicitly confirms, what I have just shared, " For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

    There were decievers already in the present world of John's day that were confessing that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh (God did not manifest in the flesh) making Jesus just some person [lower than God]. But the scriptures do explicitly state that Jesus was non other than God Himself manifest in the flesh. Not some other God or some mere mortal. In the body of Jesus, dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9).

    This person (spirit) that does not acknowledge that God (Jesus) was come (manifest) in the flesh is antichrist. It was present then and is still present today.

    From these scriptures (reminding you that these are the only 4 that mention antichrist) we see that antichrist does not describe a one world government, or one world false religion, or some person coming out of "the revived Roman empire" (which I'm still waiting for someone to show me scripturally evidence speaking to that effect), or some great and glorious religious leader bringing peace and harmony to a divided world, or even something or someone pretending to be God and imitating the Messiah.

    How is it that out of these 4 lonely verses, which are explicit in identifying antichrist, we got all this other added stuff?

    Me thinks many of us have been watching far too many apocalyptic movies, reading far too many apocalyptic fiction books and far less time digging into the good Word of God and eating of truth from it's only source.

    Maybe, you should reconsider...

    the diSpENSATIONLIST viewpoint.

    Respectfully,
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello jbenjesus,
    I really don't know what to tell you. If you can't see it, then I would suggest that you invite the Holy Spirit into your bible study. One of His jobs is to guide believers in to all truth, and I for one, would be lost without His help. And you didn't see how Rev. 3:10 relates?? I was showing you this truth, because you were saying that you thought the post-trib theory is right. I may never convince you of this. It appears that you are just reading the bible, but not fully understanding what it's saying. I don't mean that in a bad way. But you are skimming the surface, while the fish are in deeper waters. Gods Word is alive. Sometimes I can read a verse one day and get good meaning, and then the next day read it again, and find more treasure. The Spirit can take you on a journey, the bible never gets old. If you seek, you shall find, but if you're weak, you'll be blind.>>>>>>>>>>> I would be very curious to know what church you are going to??
     
  14. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Bro. rollinThunder,

    I never once said I thought the post-trib theory is right.

    Weren't you the one that was very perturbed at a moderator for publicly misquoted you?

    Please reread every single comment that I have made in this thread and show me quote me where I said that.

    As a matter of fact, I have never said anything about pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib for that matter.

    This thread is entitled, "The Antichrist", and yet not a single person has posted substantial scriptural evidence to support their interpretation of what the Bible is saying.

    This thread reminds me of the Greeks on Mars Hill wanting to share their philopophies with one another and argue with useless babblings on issues that are not founded on truth. They were founded in their vain imaginations. Paul gave them the truth and they wanted to discuss the matter like they always did based on their own puffed up knowledge. Paul realized that and left, but took with him two that did believe.

    I thought I would try to see if people could focus on using the scriptures to sharpen one another with truth. Not dull each others senses with vain repetitious imaginations. I don't have a problem when people share their thoughts, but don't you think they should be based on truth? If a person has a conviction please share with us the truth in God's word that supports that conviction. Is that too much to ask?

    Please, enlighten me on the relevance of Rev. 3:10, in regards to any comments or questions that I had for you. Maybe I simply missed it.

    You had no response to the comments I made on your difference between the church and trib saints. You had no response to Matt. 21-24 being a continual warning to the kingdom being given over to another. And rereading your posts, I realize I had another specific question for you:

    You said,
    Why do you believe the little horn is "the antichrist"? It doesn't say "the antichrist" will rise up after. How do you know this is "the antichrist"? Where did you get "this former Empire." It certainly doesn't mention any of these terms you used.

    But this is all irrelevant because you did not make one response or remark where I have shared scripture explicitly identifying who or what is antichrist?

    Not "the antichrist", but antichrist. John made it very clear what antichrist is. Did you know that antichrist is never mentioned in Daniel or Revelation?

    Is there anyone who would respond to who is antichrist that differs with the scripture that I have shared?

    As for "inviting the Holy Spirit into your bible study" comment, Jesus is the anointing that teaches men guiding them into all truth. I am one of those men, and you may be too. I can't speak for you. The Holy Spirit, I can readily testify, lives in me. I do not take him lightly, but aim to be led by Him in study and daily life.

    My church is irrevlant in this matter, but if you must know I will be transparent before you and share with you that my family (wife and 2 kids) had been attending Spring of Life Fellowship for two years until this past Thursday, when Jesus told me it's time to leave. We were prayed over by the elders and all the congregation that God would fulfill His purpose and desire for us and that we were always welcome to visit with them.

    Does that help you in any way?

    Again, respectfully,
     
  15. jtc

    jtc New Member

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    the bible says jesus had flesh on earth like me and you. romans 8:3 he did not sin because he was born of the spirit just like we have to be born of the water and spirit. john 3:5 I never said jesus was a liar i said if you say once your saved you still sin you make jesus a liar 1st john 3:6,9 john 8:34 1st john 1:9 anti christ is anyone who does not obey him it is not a single person.
     
  16. jtc

    jtc New Member

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    the beast had two horns like a lamb and spake as a dragon. jesus is referred to as the lamb of god. it is talking about all these religions over 2500 different ones that appear to be a lamb that is from god but speak as a dragon. that is what all these false religions do. they say that once your saved you still sin. i explain this in a little paper i put togeather real quick call will the truth set you free or will you always be a slave to sin. churches have to go through the government the other beast it talks about to be established and the image to the beast is the tv. it gave the image life that it could speak and brings fire down ffrom heaven. electricity.
     
  17. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    To jtc:

    You said, "anti christ is anyone who does not obey him..."

    Sorry jtc :( . This is not who or what the scriptures identify as the antichrist. You have added to the scriptures which is not a wise thing to do.

    Antichrist is not "anyone who does not obey him". This implication is simply not explicitly stated, as such, in the scriptures. But you are correct that "it is not a single person." ;) They are described as "decievers" and "a deceiver and an antichrist." As if to say it is not one single individual.

    He is anyone who denies Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son. Anyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ (God) is come (manifest) in the flesh.

     
  18. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Hmmmm, let's see if I can make my thinking into words. Actually scripture suggests MOST of us are correct, we are wording it differently & putting two & two together, without explaining how we arrived at our conclusions. SCripture was already quoted which states he is antichrist who denies Jesus. We all agree so far. The REASON we (futurists) refer to the end time "Beast" mentioned in Rev. as being the antichrist, is because this particular beast will deny Jesus & magnify himself. (Dan.11:37) So whether we refer to him as "the little horn", "beast", or "antichrist", we are referring to the same person of end time prophecy= The worst antichrist of all time.
    Rev.13:2-18:
    This beast's power, seat, & authority come straight from satan.
    He is miraculously healed from a head wound.
    He blasphemies God & Jesus & those in heaven, defiles His temple, is world leader for 42 months, the world worships him.
    666 is the number of his name.
    Dan. 11:37= Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god:for he shall magnify himself above all.(he's gay). Dan.8-he causes sacrifices to cease in temple. Dan.11-he's vile & comes in peace & flattery. 10 horns in his head, 3 kings before him fell. He is the 4th beast of the 4th kingdom upon earth. 10 kings rise before him & he rises after them & he is different from the first. ANd he shall subdue 3 kings. He changes the times & laws.(Dan.7 or 11).

    I'm not a typist sorry. The beast is THE antichrist we are referring to. Yes we know there have been & is the spirit of antichrist among us. BUt the original question was referring to the worst antchrist which is the beast.

    As to the other question discussed briefly about post-trib, there is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more scripture to back that up, than pre trib. Pre trib just isn't in the scripture in my opinion, but it isnt wise to teach it because then people might say,"Oh well, I have at least 7 years before I have to straighten my life out". When in actuality, any of us could be gone tomorrow, so I think the truth is what I prefer.
     
  19. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Thank you Debbie for putting your thinking into words. My point is in this thread no one is explaining how they arrived at their conclusions. However, I do have bones to pick with you too. ;) It should make for healthy discussion of our thoughts, though. :)

    You referenced Daniel 11:37 saying that the, ""Beast" mentioned in Rev. as being the antichrist, is because this particular beast will deny Jesus & magnify himself."

    This is Daniel 11:37, "Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all."

    Uhhhh, this says nothing about antichrist. Nothing about denying the Father and the Son. Nothing about confessing that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh. That is simply stretching text to fit a preconceived paradigm that we have already made up in our mind. We try to find any verses of scripture to take out of its context to apply it to something we have already expected will happen. In essence, we are not searching out to find truth. We are merely trying to find scripture to support our own idea of "the truth." Very dangerous. This kind of study and teaching leads many astray from the truth b/c we are relying on our own understanding and not revelation from Him.

    The "he", in this verse simply says, will deny the "God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all." How you get all the other additions and connections to the "beast", the "little horn", or "antichrist" is beyond me and respectfully speaking, is beyond the scriptures. Not to say that these terms are not found in scripture, but their relation to each other as being the same isn't.

    The beast in scripture is never referred to as "the antichrist". All the scriptures stating who or what is antichrist I have listed and its very clear what John was talking about.

    Daniel 11:37 and Daniel 8 are talking about two different people. If anyone is interested, I can e-mail you a study identifying who is this "king" of Daniel 1136,37. The vile person (Antiochus Epiphanes IV - look it up in your history books) of 11:21 is a different person from the "king" of verses 36,37.

    Firstly the difference is that verse 21 refers to him as a vile person and never as a king. When they introduce the king in verses 36,37 the subject/person has changed. However, the vile person (Antiochus Ephiphanes IV) is the popular person spoken of in Daniel 8.
     
  20. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Notice the "God" of his fathers is capitalized, (meaning Jesus' father), wheras, "nor regard any god" is not capitalized. I agree that Daniel may be talking about 2 different people here. BUt what are you views as to the beast of end time prophecy?
     
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