Secession or Bloody Revolution: For America?!?!

[mont974x4]

Ahh! Got it.



...or it's about love and fairness? It's not my fault the two are entwined here in America.
tulc(no really! that's it! no more!...till next time)

Nothing is stopping them from loving eachother or providing for eachother like anyone else.

 

[tulc]

Nothing is stopping them from loving eachother or providing for eachother like anyone else.

And they're doing it. The problem (as they see it) is all a man and a woman have to do is sign a paper, stand in front of someone and repeat some words and suddenly they have all these benefits and legal standing that would take them (gays) months sometimes years and thousands of dollars to have. And they STILL aren't considered married.
tulc(legally that is, I'm aware they wont ever be married in some peoples eyes)

 

[mont974x4]

They wont ever be married in God's eyes, and His are the only ones that matter.

The question becomes, what is considered marriage and why did we go and let the government get involved in the first place? In reality, we don't need the government to act married, and for all practical purposes, to be married and there is nothing stopping gays from providing for eachother the way a husband and wife do.

 

[Morcova]

They wont ever be married in God's eyes, and His are the only ones that matter.

The question becomes, what is considered marriage and why did we go and let the government get involved in the first place? In reality, we don't need the government to act married, and for all practical purposes, to be married and there is nothing stopping gays from providing for eachother the way a husband and wife do.

In america the government first got involved after the civil war, you needed a license to get married... and who could get married? Well whites were allowed to marry whites... and blacks were allowed to marry blacks..... whites and blacks getting married?? NOOO they couldn't have that.

Afterall.... these people believe god made man to marry within his race.

Hmmm that argument sounds a bit familiar...

 

[mont974x4]

Except I'm not a racist and the Bible does clearly define homosexuality as sin, along with adultery and fornication and being a drunk.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

In america the government first got involved after the civil war, you needed a license to get married... and who could get married? Well whites were allowed to marry whites... and blacks were allowed to marry blacks..... whites and blacks getting married?? NOOO they couldn't have that.

Afterall.... these people believe god made man to marry within his race.

Hmmm that argument sounds a bit familiar...

Except that differences between races are fundamentally incomparable to differences between males and females. You're comparing apples to oranges. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it doesn't quite wash. Throughout the history of the human species, marriage has been a covenant to bind a male and female together to form a family unit (i.e., offspring). There's no justification, in biology or Scripture, to restrict marriage on the basis of race.

However, one can make the rational argument that, since a homosexual union is incapable of producing offspring, it should not qualify for marriage. One can make the Biblical argument that, since Adam and Eve were the first couple and model for marriage, that we shouldn't allow Adam and Steve, or Gwen and Eve, to marry.

Note that I'm neither endorsing nor condemning those arguments. But they are valid points of view that can be backed by logic or Scripture.

 

[dlamberth]

They wont ever be married in God's eyes, and His are the only ones that matter.

Sorry, you are in no position to make Godly judgments for God.

.

 

[mont974x4]

Actually I am, as any believer is. You know, it's the whole study the Bible and know what it says thing that it commands us to do, as it also tells us to discern what is sin and what isn't.

I know actually having firm standards is widely unpopular in an increasingly relativist society.

 

[Morcova]

Throughout the history of the human species, marriage has been a covenant to bind a male and female together to form a family unit (i.e., offspring).

Are we now pretending that homosexual marriage is a new thing?

 

[dlamberth]

Actually I am, as any believer is. You know, it's the whole study the Bible and know what it says thing that it commands us to do, as it also tells us to discern what is sin and what isn't.

No, no believer or anyone can speak for God.

Your firm standards are YOUR standards that you choose to live by. I may disagree with some of them, but I do honor them as YOUR standards. What I do not honor is when someone claims to speak for God. When ever I see that happen my reaction is that they have crossed into the land of Heretic.



.

 

[Harpuia]

Actually I am, as any believer is. You know, it's the whole study the Bible and know what it says thing that it commands us to do, as it also tells us to discern what is sin and what isn't.

I know actually having firm standards is widely unpopular in an increasingly relativist society.

Actually, it's more like, telling everyone how much better you are than everyone else is widely unpopular in a society who's just sick of hearing it.

I know it's in the Bible, but must you always try to make God's judgement for Him? That's what leads to the anger towards Christians that we're seeing on this very board.

 

[tulc]

Except I'm not a racist and the Bible does clearly define homosexuality as sin, along with adultery and fornication and being a drunk.

...as well as eating shellfish, wearing mixed cloth, working on Saturday (that one's a death penalty one), eating cheese burgers and several dozen other things that I could name. What's your point?
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[tulc]

They wont ever be married in God's eyes, and His are the only ones that matter.

Well that's between them and the Lord, what we're discussing here is more about a couple of Americans wanting to get married and someone saying their belief system trumps their rights.

The question becomes, what is considered marriage and why did we go and let the government get involved in the first place? In reality, we don't need the government to act married, and for all practical purposes, to be married and there is nothing stopping gays from providing for eachother the way a husband and wife do.

hmmm have you been involved with families who have loved ones dying in hospice? Mrs.tulc and I have and we came across a rather disturbing problem, sometimes the people we were dealing with were dying from AIDs now this was back in the late 80s, early 90s and most of them were gay (although not all) and we would help the patients and their partners with what ever we could, now a couple of them had families who would come in, and demand that "That pervert (the partner) be removed!" and in some of the places they would have to comply with the loud families wishes, even though the partner was the one who loved and cared for the sick dying patient, why? because the family had the power and the partner (not being recognized as a spouse) had none. I saw it happen several times. A partner dies and unless there's a VERY strong will, their partner gets kicked out of the house they bought together. Why? because they don't have any standing before a court as a spouse. Standing YOU got by simply signing a paper, standing before someone, and repeating some words. There's more things you get by being married then a tax break. You don't want to recognize their marriage? Fine, that's your right. But they should be recognized by the law, simply because that's the right and the fair thing to do. (IMHO)
tulc(gah! did it again didn't I?)

 

[Shadowfax503]

The issue is that once government gets involved in anything that deals with our personal lives it has to be fair. Our Constitution protects us from government favoring one thing over another. Since Marriage is sanction by the government it is really no different than saying you can only marry someone that is of the same race or political view points or is within 5 years of your age.
Is a homosexual marriage allowed according to the Bible? NOPE! Is it allowed in some other religions? Buddhism has no restriction on same sex marriage. Unitarian Universalism sanction same-sex marriage. A large percentage of Quakers are in favor of same-sex marriages. And I am sure there are others.
So if the government is going to give certain rights and privileges to one group but deny another group those same rights and privileges to me that is unconstitutional.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

No, no believer or anyone can speak for God.

Your firm standards are YOUR standards that you choose to live by. I may disagree with some of them, but I do honor them as YOUR standards. What I do not honor is when someone claims to speak for God. When ever I see that happen my reaction is that they have crossed into the land of Heretic.



.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints-- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. --Eph. 6[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at* His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. --2 Tim 4[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Sorry, YES I can speak for GOD. I am to be an ambassador and PREACH THE WORD!!![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I am to tell the world that abortion and homosexuality are vile and extremely evil. I am to tell the world that if you want to spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire; just keep doing what you are doing. But if you want to live forever in Heaven; then you need to BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL AND REPENT![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA GRATIA.
[/FONT]

 

[mont974x4]

No, no believer or anyone can speak for God.

Your firm standards are YOUR standards that you choose to live by. I may disagree with some of them, but I do honor them as YOUR standards. What I do not honor is when someone claims to speak for God. When ever I see that happen my reaction is that they have crossed into the land of Heretic.



.

I'd gladly have you call me a heretic than be disobedient to God and His Word.

No one can speak for God? Then why did He send Moses? Isaiah? The apostles? Why did He give the Great Commision? Why did He call us amabassadors and give us the ministry of reconciliation? It is a clear biblical fact that His people are here to speak for Him.

 

[mont974x4]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints-- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. --Eph. 6[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at* His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. --2 Tim 4[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Sorry, YES I can speak for GOD. I am to be an ambassador and PREACH THE WORD!!![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I am to tell the world that abortion and homosexuality are vile and extremely evil. I am to tell the world that if you want to spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire; just keep doing what you are doing. But if you want to live forever in Heaven; then you need to BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL AND REPENT![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA GRATIA.[/FONT]

yep, but we need to treat all sin with the same standard. When I was a fornicator and a drunk I was just as guilty as the homosexuals, or anyone else intent on living a sinful lifestyle.

 

[mont974x4]

...as well as eating shellfish, wearing mixed cloth, working on Saturday (that one's a death penalty one), eating cheese burgers and several dozen other things that I could name. What's your point?
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

False comparison, brother. As a gentile believer in the NT Church I am not bound by OT law. The sins I mentioned are addressed in the NT to the NT Church.


Should we not call sin sin?

 

[Shadowfax503]

False comparison, brother. As a gentile believer in the NT Church I am not bound by OT law. The sins I mentioned are addressed in the NT to the NT Church.


Should we not call sin sin?

But are we really Gentile's? Have we not been grafted into the branch of Israel? We worship The God of Israel who chose the Israeli people as his conduit to redeem all man kind and bring us back to himself.
We may not be bound by the Law, as Grace has set us free, but we still should honor the Law.

To my way of thinking the NT writings can never be true if the OT writings are NOT true.

 

[mont974x4]

But are we really Gentile's? Have we not been grafted into the branch of Israel? We worship The God of Israel who chose the Israeli people as his conduit to redeem all man kind and bring us back to himself.
We may not be bound by the Law, as Grace has set us free, but we still should honor the Law.

To my way of thinking the NT writings can never be true if the OT writings are NOT true.

Yes we are grafted in. And I would agree that all Scripture is God breathed and important.

We must be careful to understand what still applies and what does not when it comes to commands. Those OT Laws and restrictions do not apply whereas homosexuality, fornication and others are clearly still sin.

NASB
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

1Ti 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Ti 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Ti 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Ti 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.