Let the Wise Consider These Things

[keras]

Hosea 1:10-11 The Israelites will be as countless as the sands of the sea. The time will come when it will no longer be said of them; ‘You are not My people’, and they will be called ‘Children of the Living God’. The people of Judah and Israel will be reunited and will choose for themselves one leader, they will prosper in the Land, for great will be the Day of Jezreel. Romans 9:24-27
Choose their leader; before the Return of Jesus. Jezreel means punishment, this refers to the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, that will clear the Land for this reunion and for the Lord’s favour to His people. Isaiah 10:22, Ezekiel 35:15-27, Jeremiah 30:21

Hosea 3:4-5 The Israelites will be for a long time without a King or leader and without the Temple sacrifices, or the sacred observances. After that, they will again seek the Lord and their Davidic King. All Israel will turn with reverence to their God and seek His favour for the days to come. Isaiah 55:6-7, Psalms 105:1-5

Hosea 12:6-9 Turn back by God’s help, maintain loyalty and justice and wait continually for your God. Ephraim says; surely I have become rich, I am strong and prosperous, sin will not be found in me. The Lord says; From your days in Egypt, I am still your God, you will live in tents yet again, as you did in the Exodus.
Ephraim, the leader of the ten Northern tribes: the House of Israel, scattered among the Western nations, is strong and prosperous. They believe their kind of worship will save them. Isaiah 2:6-8, Isaiah 58:1-5

Hosea 2:13 I shall punish her [Israel] for her sins against Me, when forgetful of Me, she ran off to worship other gods. Ezekiel 4:4-6, Leviticus 26:18
Punishment by exile for a decreed time, now nearly completed.

Hosea 2:14-15 But now, I shall woo her and lead My people into a deserted place, I will encourage them and restore their Land. Then the Israelites will respond as did their ancestors when they came out of Egypt. Ezekiel 20:34-36, Deut. 30:5

Hosea 11:8-11 How can I reject you, Israel and make you like those nations that have died out? A change of heart moves Me; I am the Lord, not a mortal, I will not destroy My people. They will follow their Lord when He calls, they will come from all parts of the earth and I will settle them in houses in their own Land. This is the Word of the Lord. Psalms 107, Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30:1-40, Zechariah 8:2-8

Hosea 2:16-23 On that Day My people will call Me their ‘Husband’, for I shall betroth Myself to them forever, bestowing righteousness, justice, loyalty and love. I will remove all dangers from them, they will live without fear in a plentiful Land. The people once called ‘Not loved’, and ‘Not My people’, will inhabit their inheritance. I will say to them ‘You are My people’ and they will say; ‘You are our God’. Romans 9:24-26 This refers to every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language.

Hosea 14:4-8 I shall heal My peoples apostasy, I shall love them freely for my anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel, they will dwell in My shadow, so that they may flourish and prosper. I declare and affirm that I, the Lord am the strong tree that shelters My people, they will be famous for their prosperity.

Hosea 14:9 Let the wise consider these things and let the prudent acknowledge them. The Lord’s Laws are right and His people obey them, but sinners fall. Isaiah 1:27-28
Reference: REB, some verses abridged.

 

[Douggg]

. Romans 9:24-26 This refers to every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 calls out the house of Israel specifically, and how they had trespassed against Jesus. But are restored. Christians do not become Israelite's by virtual of believing Jesus. keras, what you are teaching is replacement theology.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 calls out the house of Israel specifically, and how they had trespassed against Jesus. But are restored. Christians do not become Israelite's by virtual of believing Jesus. keras, what you are teaching is replacement theology.

You exhibit a complete failure to understand the Message of the New Testament.
Jesus made it clear when He said: I have come to save the lost House of Israel and them only. Matthew 15:24

If the Jews are the only Israel, then Jesus was a failure. But no; because those who did not see Him and who never saw how Jesus did miracles, have believed and have accepted His atoning sacrifice. THEY - we Christians; are the true Israelites of God. Jew and Gentille, as Ephesians 2:11-18, makes quite clear. Galatians 3:26-29
Thinking anyone else is God's Chosen people, or could become His people, is wrong and unbiblical.

Realize this; Hosea the Prophet, spoke to The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes. None of his prophesies are for The House of Judah, they have a different future. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 6:11-13, +

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 calls out the house of Israel specifically, and how they had trespassed against Jesus. But are restored. Christians do not become Israelite's by virtual of believing Jesus. keras, what you are teaching is replacement theology.

I believe you are very ignorant of what is taught in the New Testament. Christians become spiritual Israelites by virtue of believing in Jesus. That goes for both ethnic Jews and for Gentiles. No one is saying that anyone is replaced, so your "replacement theology" accusation is bogus.

As Paul taught, there are 2 Israels. Not all who are part of physical Israel are part of spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Spiritual Israel consists of those who are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise", which are Christians.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Douggg]

You exhibit a complete failure to understand the Message of the New Testament.
Jesus made it clear when He said: I have come to save the lost House of Israel and them only. Matthew 15:24

Taken out of context as usual.

If the Jews are the only Israel, then Jesus was a failure. But no; because those who did not see Him and who never saw how Jesus did miracles, have believed and have accepted His atoning sacrifice. THEY - we Christians; are the true Israelites of God. Jew and Gentille, as Ephesians 2:11-18, makes quite clear. Galatians 3:26-29
Thinking anyone else is God's Chosen people, or could become His people, is wrong and unbiblical.

Read Ezekiel 39:21-29 again, It is not talking about the church, but the house of Israel.

The church does not match the description of having trespassed against Jesus, and thus went into captivity and Jesus hiding His face from them, in Ezekiel 39:23.

 

[Douggg]

I believe you are very ignorant of what is taught in the New Testament. Christians become spiritual Israelites by virtue of believing in Jesus. That goes for both ethnic Jews and for Gentiles. No one is saying that anyone is replaced, so your "replacement theology" accusation is bogus.

Who is the house of Israel in verse 23 ? The church or the house of Israel ?

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Who is the house of Israel in verse 23 ? The church or the house of Israel ?

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

That isn't referring to the church, obviously. The church never trespassed against him to the point where He hid His face from them. But, what does this have to do with the points I made with the scriptures I referenced? There is physical Israel and then there is spiritual Israel. I don't believe you properly differentiate between the two. This "replacement theology" nonsense has nothing to do with the points being made in this thread.

Now, can you please address what I said in post #4?

 

[Douggg]

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Spiritual Israel consists of those who are "the children of God" and "the children of the promise", which are Christians.

I think you misunderstood that verse. Paul, imo, is saying the Jews benefited by the promise made to their forefather Issac. But that alone does not make them the children of God.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul is not saying persons become Israelite's, nor Jews, by virtue of becoming Christians. Abraham sowed seeds of faith, that likewise, we by faith, not works, in the Lord Jesus Christ, receive the promise of the Spirit - the Comforter that Jesus promised, who will abide in us forever.

Galations 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Perhaps your screen-name should be "Spiritual new creation in Christ" ? What do you think? I don't know that it can be changed or not, perhaps the moderators can.

The main message of Paul is to be a child of God a person must believe in Jesus for remissions of their sins and for life eternal in closeness to God. Which by the Holy Spirit living in us, we have spiritual closeness to God. Rejoice and be thankful in praise to God. Joy that no man can rob you of.

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Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[keras]

Taken out of context as usual.

Not out of context at all. Jesus was saying to the Canaaite woman that anyone with a true faith can be saved.

Read Ezekiel 39:21-29 again, It is not talking about the church, but the house of Israel.

The church does not match the description of having trespassed against Jesus, and thus went into captivity and Jesus hiding His face from them, in Ezekiel 39:23.

The House of Israel, who went into exile in 715 BC, ARE now represented by the Church. God's amazing Plan, to send Jesus to teach the Gospel to His disciples and for them to evangelize the lost tribes, as we know Paul did and as James 1:1 says: Greetings to the 12 tribes dispersed throughout the world.

That isn't referring to the church, obviously. The church never trespassed against him to the point where He hid His face from them

Our ancestors did worship other gods and many people today still do. But the majority of the Christian peoples must have Israelite ancestry, so God's Promises to the Patriarchs can be fulfilled.
Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells us those who revolt and rebel against God will not receive His Blessings.

 

[Douggg]

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Douggg]

The House of Israel, who went into exile in 715 BC, ARE now represented by the Church. God's amazing Plan, to send Jesus to teach the Gospel to His disciples and for them to evangelize the lost tribes, as we know Paul did and as James 1:1 says: Greetings to the 12 tribes dispersed throughout the world.

keras, Ezekiel 39:21-29 is not speaking about the church, but the house of Israel, the past and the future.

 

[keras]

keras, Ezekiel 39:21-29 is not speaking about the church, but the house of Israel, the past and the future.

The Church IS the House of Israel. WE are the ones saved by Jesus.
Your beliefs and paradigm on Prophecy, is error and confusion.

The Wisdom of the Wise will Vanish. Isaiah 29:14, 1 Cor. 1:19-21
That this prophecy is true today, is proved by the almost total lack of understanding of God’s plans for our future by Christians and by the proliferation of theories, ideas and pure fiction about end times events. Also, as is prophesied in Isaiah 29:9, those who believe false teachings will become locked into them and be unable to discern or comprehend the truth of what will happen. 2 Thess. 2:11
The Lord says: I frustrate false prophets and make fools of diviners. I reverse what wise men say and make nonsense of their wisdom. Isaiah 44:25, Romans 1:22
Jesus says: I thank You Father for hiding these truths from the learned and wise and revealing them to the simple. Matthew 11:25-26, 1 John 4:4-5
Daniel is told: Keep these words secret and seal them up until the time of the end…only a few wise leaders will understand. Jeremiah 23:20

From the above Bible quotes, we see that there are two types of ‘wise’ people. Those who promote theories, ideas and doctrines that are not fully supported by scripture and those few who search all the prophesies and discern the truth of the end time events.
Here are some of the theories, ideas and fanciful notions that abound today:
1/ The Return of Jesus is the next event. This is totally refuted by 2 Thess. 2:1-4

2/ The wrath of God all happens at the Return. To move the Sixth Seal – stated to be the wrath of God and the Lamb, means shuffling the given sequence of Revelation. The Wrath of God, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, His coming IN the clouds, Psalm 18:7-15, Hab. 3:4 is described quite differently and happens years before the Return ON the clouds. Matthew 24:30, Rev 19:11

3/ The ‘rapture’. A removal of Christians to heaven before the Day of Wrath. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that at any time, alive or dead, will any humans go to live in heaven. John 3:13 We are earth creatures and as believers in God and Jesus, we have work to do on earth, our destiny is to be ‘a light to the nations’. Isaiah 42:6

4/ The Jews are Gods chosen people. To say this not only abrogates the redemptive work of Jesus for all mankind, but also ignores God’s promises to the Patriarchs and His plan for all the Israelites, whom He watches and cares for. Jer. 16:17, Amos 9:9

5/ There will be a World War 3. Or an economic meltdown, or some other man caused problem will trigger the end time events. It is prophesied over 70 times that the Lord will send a judgement/punishment of fire to destroy His enemies. Matthew 3:12

6/ Preterism. The belief that all the prophesies are fulfilled or abrogated by Christ. They deny the historical facts, refute Nahum 1:2 and all the yet to be fulfilled prophesies. Psalm 110:5-6, Matthew 3:12, Revelation 1:1

7/ Revival must come first. Actually this is correct, but that revival will be instigated by the 144,000, Rev 14:1-7. They will go out from New Israel in pairs, as the precedent in Luke 10:1-10
.
8/ The lack of teaching on the Prophetic Word. Preachers shy away from any mention of prophecy and judgement, so the people have no real knowledge of end time events.

9/ The need to avoid the ‘mark of the beast’. Rev 13:16-17 But Rev. 7 tells us God’s servants are marked with ‘the seal of God’. God’s people, ‘from every tribe, nation and language’ are gathered in the holy Land, the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

10/ Apathy. The sheer carelessness and laziness of not attempting or trying to understand what a large proportion of the Bible is informing us. Deut. 32:28-29, 2 Peter 1:19

For now, as we are in the Church age, Ezekiel 14:1-10 applies. This passage says if the Israelites, that is: the Lord’s people, ‘set their hearts on sinful things, then the Lord will allow them to believe falsehoods, as they desire.

So anyone who wishes to avoid God’s wrath by ‘going to heaven’, or want to think nothing much is yet to happen, then the Lord will lock them into those false theories and fables. It will make an understanding of the truth difficult for them. Jeremiah 6:10

Only after things happen, will understanding comer to them. Isaiah 35:4-5

 

[Douggg]

The Church IS the House of Israel. WE are the ones saved by Jesus.

The house of Israel will embrace Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.

 

[keras]

The house of Israel will embrace Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.

If you can read this into Rev 12:10, you can believe practically anything.
Wow! You DO believe the Lord is going to rapture you to heaven, before any Judgment! Beats Starwars and Captain Kirk would be envious.

 

[Douggg]

If you can read this into Rev 12:10, you can believe practically anything.
Wow! You DO believe the Lord is going to rapture you to heaven, before any Judgment! Beats Starwars and Captain Kirk would be envious.

Ezekiel 38-39, Daniel 12, Revelation 12, Romans 11 all prove your replacement theology wrong. The Church has not become Israel.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 38-39, Daniel 12, Revelation 12, Romans 11 all prove your replacement theology wrong. The Church has not become Israel.

What really proves the truth of Christians being the Israelites of God, Galatians 6:14-16, literally the Overcomers for God, is the many Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel, Prophesies such as Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18 and Zephaniah 1:1-18, +

It is, of course; the false 'rapture to heaven' theory, which forces you to have Jewish Israel on earth, undergoing tribulation, while you sit up in heaven. Doing what?
A straight out unbiblical error that will not happen.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think you misunderstood that verse. Paul, imo, is saying the Jews benefited by the promise made to their forefather Issac. But that alone does not make them the children of God.

Their nationality does not make them the children of God at all. Why do you act as if that is part of what makes them the children of God, but not the only thing? That isn't what Paul said. You are the one misunderstanding Romans 9:6-8. It couldn't be more clear that the children of God are those who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, as Paul taught here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So, keep this passage in mind while reading this again:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Keeping in mind that people are the children of God only through faith and not because of ethnicity or nationality, as Paul taught in Galatians 3:26-29, you should see that what he was saying in Romans 9:6-8 is that people are not the children of God by physical descent at all. One's ethnicity or nationality has NOTHING to do with whether they are a child of God or not. It is about whether someone has faith like Abraham had or not. Paul taught here that nationality has nothing to do with being part of spiritual Israel, but rather it's only those who are the children of God and children of the promise who are part of spiritual Israel and considered to be Abraham's spiritual seed/offspring.

You place a significance on one's nationality that scripture does not. You need to read the New Testament more instead of only reading the Old Testament all the time. You are very ignorant of what is taught in the New Testament.

Paul is not saying persons become Israelite's, nor Jews, by virtue of becoming Christians.

He very clearly indicated that because he said it has nothing to do with where someone physically descends from but rather has to do with being a child of God and of the promise. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can clearly see that being a child of God and of the promise has nothing to do with one's physical nationality but rather has to do with whether someone has faith like Abraham did or not.

Abraham sowed seeds of faith, that likewise, we by faith, not works, in the Lord Jesus Christ, receive the promise of the Spirit - the Comforter that Jesus promised, who will abide in us forever.

Galations 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Perhaps your screen-name should be "Spiritual new creation in Christ" ? What do you think?

I think you are completely wrong, of course. I am a spiritual Jew and spiritual Israelite and so are you. It's sad that you don't recognize that.

I don't know that it can be changed or not, perhaps the moderators can.

LOL! Are you kidding me here? That will never happen. According to Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6-8, all Christians are spiritual Jews and spiritual Isrealites because we all meet the requirements for how Paul described what makes someone a spiritual Jew and a spiritual Israelite.

The main message of Paul is to be a child of God a person must believe in Jesus for remissions of their sins and for life eternal in closeness to God. Which by the Holy Spirit living in us, we have spiritual closeness to God. Rejoice and be thankful in praise to God. Joy that no man can rob you of.

Why do you make it as though he said being a part of the Israel of which not all Israel are part has anything do with one's nationality? You need to ask God for wisdom to show you how to properly interpret Romans 9:6-8 and other New Testament passages that you currently have no understanding of at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The house of Israel will embrace Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.

In no way, shape or form is that taught in Revelation 12:10. Not even close. You are making things up.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Ezekiel 38-39, Daniel 12, Revelation 12, Romans 11 all prove your replacement theology wrong. The Church has not become Israel.

This false "replacement theology" accusation needs to stop. Who is saying that the church has become Israel? No one. National Israel is still national Israel and no one is saying national Israel has been replaced. What some of us say, rather, is that the church is spiritual Israel, which is a separate entity from national Israel. So, we believe there are two Israels and not just one, just as Paul indicates in Romans 9:6-8. No one is replaced.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

keras, Ezekiel 39:21-29 is not speaking about the church, but the house of Israel, the past and the future.

That passage speaks about what God would do for the people of Israel. Like Joel 2:28-32, it is a reference to the day of Pentecost and to all the days following when God would pour out His Spirit on any of them who put their faith in Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Peter references Joel 2:28-32 specifically here, but this can be seen as the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:21-29 as well:

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

The Ezekiel prophecy talks about a time when God would pour out His Spirit on the people of Israel. That started happening long ago on the day of Pentecost, so why would anyone think that prophecy only applies to the future? It has had an ongoing fulfillment for almost 2,000 years now.