Let the Wise Consider These Things

[DavidPT]

Here are the verses in Ezekiel 38.

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

In Ezekiel 39.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

What you are doing in your rationale is taking that statement in red, and reversing it to apply to individuals, in order to argue Christians are the people of God. The verses are not talking about individual persons, but a nation collectively. Gog/Magog is going to attack the nation of Israel. And God is going to defend Israel.

To add to what you submitted, the following is obviously pertaining to what you have in red per this post.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Ezekiel 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Let's take verse 23, for instance. It seems to me, maybe you agree, maybe you don't, that this part---the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity : because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies : so fell they all by the sword.

Sounds like to me, the fact the Jews are once again gathered back into their land as of just prior to the middle of the 20th century, it was then what happened per 70 AD that explains this part--- and gave them into the hand of their enemies : so fell they all by the sword. And that it is not until God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, being when Ezekiel 39:29 is initially fulfilled.

Some interpreters insist Ezekiel 39:29 fits the first century, meaning after Christ was born, yet prior to 70 AD. Except that makes nonsense out of the parts involving God executing His judgment on Gog and his multitude before Ezekiel 39:29 can be fulfilled.

No doubt in my mind, God executing His judgment on Gog and his multitude has not been fulfilled yet. Therefore, since Ezekiel 39:29 can't get fulfilled until after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first, it is then unreasonable to insist Ezekiel 39:29 has already been fulfilled.

Which then means God is still to this day hiding His face from the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 38-39, which fits with the unbelieving Jews currently occupying that region, but does not fit the NT church in any way whatsoever. To insist it does, it means one has to apply the parts regarding hiding His face, to that of the NT church, which is ludicrous. And what you highlighted in red proves, this proves that the house of Israel meant, God still views them as His ppl, even while He is hiding His face from them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Here are the verses in Ezekiel 38.

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

In Ezekiel 39.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

What you are doing in your rationale is taking that statement in red, and reversing it to apply to individuals, in order to argue Christians are the people of God. The verses are not talking about individual persons, but a nation collectively. Gog/Magog is going to attack the nation of Israel. And God is going to defend Israel.

Are you arguing that Christians are not the people of God? I sure hope not. Why do you never use the New Testament to support your claims? Do you not now that the New Testament sheds light on Old Testament prophecies? The passages from Ezekiel are not referring to the nation of Israel collectively as God's people. Notice in Ezekiel 38:16 that it refernces "my people of Israel". His people of Israel are only believers of Israel, not unbelievers. Look at how Jesus talked to unbelievers, calling them hypocrites, blind guides, a brood of vipers and saying their father is the devil. Does that sound like God's people to you? Yet, they are included among the collective that you say are God's people. Only believers are His people, so it's not referring to the nation collectively. It's referring to the believers of that nation.

Look at what Paul wrote here:

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

So what we can see here is that God's people were Israelites as proven by Paul himself who was an Israelite. However, it was not the collective nation of Israel that were His people, it was the remnant of believers who He foreknew that were His people. The rest of the people of Israel were not. That is how the passages from Ezekiel should be understood as well. Surely, no unbeliever can be included among God's people even in a collective or corporate sense. So, you are mistaken. I wonder why it is that you don't just accept what Paul taught in passages like Romans 11:1-7 and Galatians 3:26-29 which is that individuals with faith are the people of God? Nowhere does it indicate that a collective group that includes unbelievers are the people of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

To add to what you submitted, the following is obviously pertaining to what you have in red per this post.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Some interpreters insist Ezekiel 39:29 fits the first century, meaning after Christ was born, yet prior to 70 AD. Except that makes nonsense out of the parts involving God executing His judgment on Gog and his multitude before Ezekiel 39:29 can be fulfilled.

No doubt in my mind, God executing His judgment on Gog and his multitude has not been fulfilled yet. Therefore, since Ezekiel 39:29 can't get fulfilled until after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first, it is then unreasonable to insist Ezekiel 39:29 has already been fulfilled.

Which then means God is still to this day hiding His face from the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 38-39, which fits with the unbelieving Jews currently occupying that region, but does not fit the NT church in any way whatsoever. To insist it does, it means one has to apply the parts regarding hiding His face, to that of the NT church, which is ludicrous. And what you highlighted in red proves, this proves that the house of Israel meant, God still views them as His ppl, even while He is hiding His face from them.

So, even though God no longer hid His face from them (figuratively speaking) and poured out His Spirit upon the house of Israel on the day of Pentecost long ago (Acts 2), it's not possible that Ezekiel 39:29 has been fulfilled or begun to be fulfilled yet? I don't believe that makes any sense.

As for your comment that God views them as His people even while He is hiding His face from them, does that mean you think Ezekiel 39:29 is saying He pours out His Spirit upon literally all people of Israel regardless of whether they believe or not? Surely, it can't mean that, right? He only pours out His Spirit on believers. It seems that there are some things that you have not taken into consideration here.

 

[Douggg]

Are you arguing that Christians are not the people of God? I sure hope not. Why do you never use the New Testament to support your claims? Do you not now that the New Testament sheds light on Old Testament prophecies? The passages from Ezekiel are not referring to the nation of Israel collectively as God's people.

Take a look at what is going on in Israel right now. Is Hamas targeting the church's there ? Even the Muslims don't consider you an Israelite or Jew.

Eschatology is the study of the end times. Ezekiel 38-39 takes place in the latter years, latter days.

The verses in Ezekiel 38-39, not only says my people of Israel, but also the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 39 is made up of two parts. Ezekiel 39:1-16 pertains to the Gog/Magog event. 7 years later, Armageddon, and Jesus's return, are in verses 17-29. During the 7 years, midway through, the Jews en-masse become Christians, saved, believers in Jesus, and the gospel of Salvation, in Revelation 12:10.

 

[keras]

The verses in Ezekiel 38-39, not only says my people of Israel, but also the land of Israel.

We are all tired of you and others desperate attempts the make the Jewish State of Israel into God's Chosen people.
This idea is quite evidently wrong and it is done in order to support an even worse theory; the rapture to heaven.

Is it impossible for rapture believers to see how unbiblical and ridiculous it is to think the people group who rejected and killed Jesus, then cursed themselves, Matthew 27:25 still remain Gods people?
It is amazing how the Jews have maintained their identity and have now re-established themselves in the holy Land. They have had supernatural help, But from whom? Remember that Jesus took the Kingdom from them and gave it to the peoples who bear the proper fruit.
Jesus also said they belonged to the Synagogue of Satan, Revelation 2:9b
Proved by their flag; the star of Rephaim, an ancient Satanic symbol.

Regarding the holy Land. All that area; from the Nile to the Euphrates, is our Christian heritage. We are Abrahams children, peoples from many nations and we will fulfil our destiny by living there. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Romans 9:24-26, +

 

[DavidPT]

So, even though God no longer hid His face from them (figuratively speaking) and poured out His Spirit upon the house of Israel on the day of Pentecost long ago (Acts 2), it's not possible that Ezekiel 39:29 has been fulfilled or begun to be fulfilled yet? I don't believe that makes any sense.

It makes sense if one factors in that verse 29 is meaning after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, rather than before He does that. The chronology of events show that God first executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, then once He does that, it eventually leads to the fulfillment of what verse 29 is involving.

The only way that verse 29 can possibly be meaning the day of Pentecost in Ezekiel 39, is if the judgment involving Gog and his multitude somehow preceded the day of Pentecost. In that case, I would be in full agreement that verse 29 is meaning the day of Pentecost in Ezekiel 39. Except that contradicts reality that the judgment involving Gog and his multitude has already been fulfilled, and that it was fulfilled before the day of Pentecost was fulfilled in the first century, on top of that.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.


Look at verse 21 above. How can the judgment that He executes not be meaning the same judgment involving Gog and his multitude?

Then take notice what all follows verse 21.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Seriously, how can verse 29 not be connected with verse 21?

As for your comment that God views them as His people even while He is hiding His face from them, does that mean you think Ezekiel 39:29 is saying He pours out His Spirit upon literally all people of Israel regardless of whether they believe or not? Surely, it can't mean that, right? He only pours out His Spirit on believers. It seems that there are some things that you have not taken into consideration here.

I'm not entirely certain what all it means. I'm sure God knows, though. All I know is, this is meaning after when verse 21 is meaning, not before verse 21 is meaning instead. And this presents a major problem if one is insisting verse 29 fits the day of Pentecost unless someone can convincingly show that verse 21 was fulfilled prior to the day of Pentecost, since verse 29 has to be meaning after verse 21 is fulfilled, not before verse 21 is fulfilled instead.

 

[Bobber]

This false "replacement theology" accusation needs to stop. Who is saying that the church has become Israel? No one. National Israel is still national Israel and no one is saying national Israel has been replaced. What some of us say, rather, is that the church is spiritual Israel, which is a separate entity from national Israel. So, we believe there are two Israels and not just one, just as Paul indicates in Romans 9:6-8. No one is replaced.

And spiritual Israel is made up of Jews and Gentiles alike. I think a lot of the labelling people with a replacement theolog tag almost seems like an accusation of being anti-Semitic and most certainly if that's what one's are trying to imply they should stop. Everyone who believes the Jews and Gentiles have become one new body want and long for as many Jews who are willing to receive Christ to do so. We long to see their salvation as much as we long to see anyone's elses salvation.

 

[Douggg]

We are all tired of you and others desperate attempts the make the Jewish State of Israel into God's Chosen people.
This idea is quite evidently wrong and it is done in order to support an even worse theory; the rapture to heaven.

Is it impossible for rapture believers to see how unbiblical and ridiculous it is to think the people group who rejected and killed Jesus, then cursed themselves, Matthew 27:25 still remain Gods people?
It is amazing how the Jews have maintained their identity and have now re-established themselves in the holy Land. They have had supernatural help, But from whom? Remember that Jesus took the Kingdom from them and gave it to the peoples who bear the proper fruit.
Jesus also said they belonged to the Synagogue of Satan, Revelation 2:9b
Proved by their flag; the star of Rephaim, an ancient Satanic symbol.

Regarding the holy Land. All that area; from the Nile to the Euphrates, is our Christian heritage. We are Abrahams children, peoples from many nations and we will fulfil our destiny by living there. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Romans 9:24-26, +

Ezekiel 38-39 is the lead-in event to the Antichrist. To become the Antichrist, the person must anointed the King of Israel coming in his own name. Jesus was the rightful King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord, but influenced by the religious leaders of His time was rejected by his own people, the Jews. The end times generation of Jews will eventually embrace Jesus in the middle of the 7 years following the Gog/Magog event.

John 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

And spiritual Israel is made up of Jews and Gentiles alike. I think a lot of the labelling people with a replacement theolog tag almost seems like an accusation of being anti-Semitic and most certainly if that's what one's are trying to imply they should stop. Everyone who believes the Jews and Gentiles have become one new body want and long for as many Jews who are willing to receive Christ to do so. We long to see their salvation as much as we long to see anyone's elses salvation.

Christians, each are a new creature in Christ, whereby we have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit, who resides in each Christian forever.

Our souls have been redeemed, born again. We await the redemption of our bodies, no longer of this flesh, just as Paul stated of Jesus was no longer known in his flesh (verse 16), but now is in His glorified body.

Whereby Christians are not made into "Spiritual Jews" nor "Israelite's", but a new creature in Christ, to be glorified like the angels of heaven, at the time of the rapture/resurrection, the redemption of our bodies. We walk this earth in a camouflaged body until the day of Christ comes.

2Corinthians:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Why seek to be a "Spiritual Jew" or "Israelite" ? Instead, follow what Paul wrote in Colossians 3:1-2.

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Believe God, Love God, Trust God.

 

[Bobber]

Christians, each are a new creature in Christ, whereby we have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit, who resides in each Christian forever.

I agree with that.

Our souls have been redeemed, born again. We await the redemption of our bodies, no longer of this flesh, just as Paul stated of Jesus was no longer known in his flesh (verse 16), but now is in His glorified body.

Yes. Sure!

Whereby Christians are not made into "Spiritual Jews" nor "Israelite's", but a new creature in Christ, .....

Nope....hold on now. We are Israel after the Spirit. Rom 11 speaks of this.

.17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Very true and it's good you take seriously what the Bible says we are In Christ. But don't stop there! What else did the Bible say we are, that is those who are in Christ....Let's look, Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29

Abraham's seed is that which is Israel.

Why seek to be a "Spiritual Jew" or "Israelite" ? Instead, follow what Paul wrote in Colossians 3:1-2.

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

That doesn't mean we're not the seed of Abraham. Gal 3: 29 clearly states that we are.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

And Doug how does one set their affection on things above? When we understand God's word is that which came down from ABOVE when ones comes into agreement with that they have set their affection on the things above. A part of the ABOVE knowledge is you which are Christ's are Abraham's seed.....Gal 3:29

 

[Douggg]

And Doug how does one set their affection on things above? When we understand God's word is that which came down from ABOVE when ones comes into agreement with that they have set their affection on the things above. A part of the ABOVE knowledge is you which are Christ's are Abraham's seed.....Gal 3:29

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

1Corinthians2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

2Corinthians5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Live a life focused on doing the cause of Christ, which to love God with all your heart and soul, and treating others as you would yourself.

For someday, when we leave this earth to appear before the judgment seat of Christ, we receive according to those things we have done while in this body.

 

[keras]

2 Timothy 3:1-17 Remember, the final age of this world is to be a time of turmoil! People will love nothing but self and money, they will be boastful, arrogant and abusive. Disobedient to parents, devoid of gratitude, piety and natural affection. They will be uncontrolled in their violence, hating all goodness, perfidious, foolhardy and self important. They will love their pleasures more than their God.

While preserving the outward form of religion, actually, they deny its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Persecution will indeed come to everyone who wants to lead a godly life as a follower of Christ Jesus, while evil doers and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

But for your part, stand by the truths you have learned and are assured of, because you are familiar with the Holy scriptures which have the power to make you wise and lead you into salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth, refuting error and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be capable and equipped for good works of every kind.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearing and Millennial reign – to proclaim the gospel, press it home, in season and out of season, use argument, reproof and encouragement with all the patience that teaching requires.

For the time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will follow his own ideas and will gather crowds to hear whatever they fancy. They will stop their ears to the truth and turn aside to myths. Prime example: the ‘rapture’.

But, you must keep your head whatever happens; put up with hardship, work to spread the gospel and discharge all the duties of your calling.



Isaiah 29:10-24 The prophetic vision has become as a sealed book for you.

Because this people worship Me with empty words, while their hearts are far from Me, therefore I shall shock this people again. Wisdom will vanish.

In a very short time, the Land will be regenerated. On that day the deaf will hear and the blind will see. The humble will rejoice in the Lord, but the cruel and arrogant will cease to exist.

The Lord says; This is not the time for Jacob to be concerned, for his descendants will honour My name when they see what I have done in their midst. The confused will gain understanding and the obstinate, accept instruction.



Jeremiah 9:23-24 These are the words of the Lord; Let not the wise boast of their wisdom, nor the brave of their bravery. Let not the wealthy boast of their wealth, but if anyone must boast, let them boast of this – that they understand and acknowledge Me. For I am the Lord God, I show unfailing love. I do justice and right on the earth. In this I take pleasure.

Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Take a look at what is going on in Israel right now. Is Hamas targeting the church's there ?

This is irrelevant as it relates to our discussion here.

Even the Muslims don't consider you an Israelite or Jew.

And that is supposed to mean something to me? It means nothing. I would not expect them to have any concept or understanding of biblical, spiritual concepts like what we're talking about.

Eschatology is the study of the end times.

It is? Really? Wow, I guess I'm in the wrong forum. I thought it was about the start times.

Ezekiel 38-39 takes place in the latter years, latter days.

In your opinion. But, you can't reconcile that understanding with other scripture. It's quite noticeable that you have no New Testament scripture that you can use to support your doctrine. It's all based on taking Old Testament scriptures out of context while not allowing the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you.

The verses in Ezekiel 38-39, not only says my people of Israel, but also the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 39 is made up of two parts. Ezekiel 39:1-16 pertains to the Gog/Magog event. 7 years later, Armageddon, and Jesus's return, are in verses 17-29. During the 7 years, midway through, the Jews en-masse become Christians, saved, believers in Jesus, and the gospel of Salvation, in Revelation 12:10.

None of what you're saying (note: I'm talking about what you say, not what scripture says, which you misinterpret) lines up with anything taught in the New Testament. That should concern you, but for whatever reason it doesn't. Please start reading the New Testament and ask God for wisdom in understanding it (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It makes sense if one factors in that verse 29 is meaning after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, rather than before He does that. The chronology of events show that God first executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, then once He does that, it eventually leads to the fulfillment of what verse 29 is involving.

I agree, but I also know that you and everyone else, including me, don't really know what Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are about. Why not base your doctrine on more clear scripture than highly debatable scripture like this? If those passages have a future fulfillment, then tell me who Gog is now and what is the land of Magog? As far as I can tell they don't exist anymore. The only time they are referenced in the New Testament is figuratively to described all the unbelievers in the world who oppose Christ and His church (Rev 20:7-9).

The only way that verse 29 can possibly be meaning the day of Pentecost in Ezekiel 39, is if the judgment involving Gog and his multitude somehow preceded the day of Pentecost.

It may have for all we know. Are you willing to acknowledge that the text in Ezekiel 39 is difficult to understand? There used to be a Gog and Magog long ago, but not anymore. What does that tell you? I don't use passages like that as part of the foundation of my doctrine. That makes no sense. It's interesting to try to determine what it means, but it's one of the most difficult passages in the entire Bible to interpret.

In that case, I would be in full agreement that verse 29 is meaning the day of Pentecost in Ezekiel 39. Except that contradicts reality that the judgment involving Gog and his multitude has already been fulfilled, and that it was fulfilled before the day of Pentecost was fulfilled in the first century, on top of that.

If it hasn't been fulfilled then tell me exactly how it will be fulfilled and please start with telling me who Gog is now and where the land of Magog is now. I'm looking on a map and I don't see Magog anywhere.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.


Look at verse 21 above. How can the judgment that He executes not be meaning the same judgment involving Gog and his multitude?

You wasted your time with all this. When did I say otherwise from what you're saying here? I didn't.

Then take notice what all follows verse 21.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Seriously, how can verse 29 not be connected with verse 21?

When did I say it wasn't? I don't recall that.

I'm not entirely certain what all it means.

No one is. Trust me. Some think they know. They don't. Any unbiased, honest person will acknowledge that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are among the most difficult passages in all of scripture to interpret in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture and lines up with the rest of scripture. So, we can talk about it. But, using that as part of the foundation of one's doctrine? I don't understand that at all.

I'm sure God knows, though.

Of course. He inspired that text to be written. But, apparently, it was not His desire to it to be straightforward and easy to discern. And that's okay. We have other scripture that is easier to discern that we can use as the foundation for our doctrines.

All I know is, this is meaning after when verse 21 is meaning, not before verse 21 is meaning instead.

I agree and never said otherwise. Can you acknowledge that any reference to God pouring out His Spirit brings to mind the day of Pentecost as well as the New Testament time period in general when God has done that? It sure does to me.

And this presents a major problem if one is insisting verse 29 fits the day of Pentecost unless someone can convincingly show that verse 21 was fulfilled prior to the day of Pentecost, since verse 29 has to be meaning after verse 21 is fulfilled, not before verse 21 is fulfilled instead.

Guess what? No one can convincingly do that just as no one can convincingly prove that it will be fulfilled in the future.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is a Prophecy about how the Lord will Bless His faithful Christian peoples, as they gather and live in all of the holy land. ALL of them are descendants of Abraham and Jacob, Spiritually and by ancestry.

Zion, the Promised Land, all of the area given to Abraham. Genesis 15:18

Isaiah 49:14-23 Zion says: The Lord has forsaken me. The Lord says: Can a woman forget her child? I shall never forget you. I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands. Your dwellings are always before My eyes.

Your people will hasten back, while your enemies depart. Look around, your children gather and come to you. They will be as ornaments in the Land.
Once the Land was desolate. Your enemies are now far away. The children born while the Land was occupied by foreigners will now say: This place is too small for us. Zion will say; who bore these children, when I was deserted, where did they come from?

The Lord says; I shall signal to the nations, they will carefully transport My people to their Promised Land. Kings will be your sponsors and great people will serve and honour you. You will know that I am the Lord, none who trust in Me will be disappointed.

Zion: The holy Land, forsaken and desolate, Jeremiah 22:6-7, Hosea 4:3, that is how it will be after the next prophesied event: The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an explosion of the sun, directed at the Middle East that will clear and cleanse the entire area. Deuteronomy 32:43
Currently most of the holy Land is occupied by atheists or false religion worshippers. The Jews will be judged, Zechariah 13:7-9, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7

‘the enemies depart, they are now far away’: Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11 tell us how the surrounding nations and entities all hate Israel and want to ‘wipe them off the map’. Those attackers will all be killed, some by their own weapons; Psalms 7:12-16, and the rest of the inhabitants will flee. Jeremiah 49:4-5 & 35-37

‘Your people will hasten back’: A part of Judah has returned, but very few are true believers and Judah now faces judgement. Only a remnant will survive in Jerusalem after the Lord cleanses all of the holy Land of every wicked and ungodly person. Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 66:15-17, Romans 9:27 All true Christians are the Lord’s people, His elect: Romans 9:24-26, Psalms 24:3-5, Malachi 3:16-17

‘The Lord’s people, all those who put their trust in Him’: Christians from every race, nation and language, will be gathered and transported to all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Isaiah 66:18b-20, Psalms 107, Jer. 23:3-4, Zechariah 9:16 On that Day their God will save them, they will sparkle like jewels in the Land.

‘The Promised Land’: will be regenerated and become fruitful. Joel 2:21-24, Psalms 126:1-5

Ezekiel 36:8-12 You, mountains of Israel, put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of your people is near. Isaiah 51:3

Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the desert be glad, let it flower and rejoice!...Be strong, My people, fear not: your God comes to save you with His vengeance and retribution. Then; understanding will be given to all who couldn’t see or comprehend the Prophetic Word.
A highway will appear and by that road, the Lord’s redeemed people will travel into their heritage. His holy people, set free will enter Zion with shouts of praise for their Redeemer. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will be gone.

Psalms 48:11-14 The hills of Zion rejoice, Judah’s cities are glad. Walk about the holy Land, count the towers. Note the fortifications and buildings, so that you can tell about them to the coming generations. For this God is our God, our guide and protector, now and forever.

Psalms 69:35-36 For God will deliver Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His Name will dwell there.

Isaiah 55:11-13 You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace....the Land will rejoice at your coming.
Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

That all this happens before the Return of Jesus in His glory, is made clear by Isaiah 49:23, ‘you will know that I am the Lord’’. First, His people will gather and settle in all of the holy Land. Those who serve the Lord will inherit the Land. Psalms 126:1-5

All this is prophesied to happen as all the faithful Christians prepare for the eventual Millennial reign of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is a Prophecy about how the Lord will Bless His faithful Christian peoples, as they gather and live in all of the holy land. ALL of them are descendants of Abraham and Jacob, Spiritually and by ancestry.

Which specific verse(s) of Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

 

[keras]

Which specific verse(s) of Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

Ezekiel 39:27-29, quite obviously does not apply to Jewish Israel.
Who else but the Christian peoples......When I gather them from the lands of their enemies, I shall make them show My holiness for the nations to see and they will know I am their God......

During the 7 years, midway through, the Jews en-masse become Christians, saved, believers in Jesus, and the gospel of Salvation, Rev 12:10

This is unscriptural and plainly wrong. Even Zechariah 12 says the few Jews who do mourn for Jesus, will do so when He Returns.
A Jewish en-masse event is their punishment, as prophesied in over 20 Prophesies and only a Christian remnant will survive.

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 39:27-29, quite obviously does not apply to Jewish Israel.
Who else but the Christian peoples......When I gather them from the lands of their enemies, I shall make them show My holiness for the nations to see and they will know I am their God......

Those verses pertain to the house of Israel. In Ezekiel 39:27, 39:25, it says "again". So it is not referring to gentile Christian people.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

The whole house of Israel is referring to all twelve tribes. Them descended from the ten tribes of the northern kingdom and them descended from the two tribes of the southern kingdom. Together, they make up Jacob, i.e. Israel.

"again" because God brought the two tribes that went into Babylonian captivity already once before, to rebuild the temple, city, and wall. And prepare for the arrival of the messiah - Jesus.

Because when the messiah arrived and they rejected Jesus, trespassing against him as Jesus was crucified, the Jews then were taken into captivity among the nations. Until they partially returned, so that in May 14, 1948 became a nation back in the land.

Ezekiel 39:28 is about the completion of the regathering, so not one descendant of the house of Israel will be left in the nations.

 

[Douggg]

This is unscriptural and plainly wrong. Even Zechariah 12 says the few Jews who do mourn for Jesus, will do so when He Returns.
A Jewish en-masse event is their punishment, as prophesied in over 20 Prophesies and only a Christian remnant will survive.

keras, in Matthew 24:15-21, which those verses are about the great tribulation beginning when the abomination of desolation is standing in the temple location, Jesus said...

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Now why would Jesus have said neither on the sabbath day, if it were a Christian nation called Beulah present instead of the current Jewish nation of Israel ?

Travel, in Judaism, is limited on the sabbath day.

 

[keras]

keras, in Matthew 24:15-21, which those verses are about the great tribulation beginning when the abomination of desolation is standing in the temple location

Jesus did warn people to get out of the holy Land before the Great Trib commences.
But as we see in Revelation 12, half will get to safety and the rest will remain.

Travel, in Judaism, is limited on the sabbath day.

Judaism is soon to be no more. The Sixth Seal disaster will destroy the Jewish House of Judah.