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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Why, you've read Scripture, and have merely succeeded in distorting its real message horribly, to your own harm. And this, unfortunately, is the truth of the matter.
     
  2. Wordkeeper

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    Would you agree drinking from the Rock is the revelation that God can and will save you if you leave all your dependency on the world system?
     
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I would say that drinking from the rock is a "type", or a metaphor pointing to that blessed Life that is dependent on having true faith in the Word of God and receiving the Holy Spirit into oneself as the Divinely natural consequence of having true faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Unless our faith introduces and grows the presence of the Kingdom of heaven inside of us, that faith is vain. This is why I have been emphasizing to you and to the others the indispensable ministry of the Holy Spirit in our salvation. When the concept of salvation merely becomes "being spared from going to hell" by an abstract formula that results in forensic justification due to adhering to the formula, then the knowledge of what it really is to be saved is lost. Knowledge of God is not obtained, because that knowledge is Personally imparted by the Holy Spirit inside of each believer. Prayer and fasting are essential in growing this relationship, or Life, in the Holy Trinity.
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the Spirit and prayer to God are not mutually exclusive. For:

    Romans 8:26 . . . the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    Also:

    1 Corinthians 14:14 . . . if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    15 ¶What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    If a Christian has received an unknown tongue (1 Corinthians 14:2,4), it is okay for him to pray and sing to God both in his natural language, with mental understanding, and in an unknown tongue, by his spirit, without mental understanding (1 Corinthians 14:14-15). For it is okay for a Christian to build up both his spirit (1 Corinthians 14:4,14) and his mind (Romans 12:2), and not just one or the other. A Christian's spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23) can know things which his mind doesn't consciously know (1 Corinthians 14:14), yet.

    *******

    Because it is both stricter and more merciful than the Old Covenant.

    That is, Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

    Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

    So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness, those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

    *******

    For people must forsake everything that they have if they are to be Jesus Christ's disciples (Luke 14:33).

    When you hear Jesus say to you: "Come and follow Me" (Luke 18:22), you must walk away from everything but the clothes on your back (Luke 18:23, Luke 9:59-62, Matthew 19:29). He may have you walk only as far as the city limits and then turn around and go back home, so long as you were willing to keep going indefinitely. Or, He may ask you to keep going, until He has separated your soul from all attachment to the temporary things of this world (1 John 2:15-17; James 4:4; 2 Timothy 4:10, John 12:25-26).
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding repenting from a sin (Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), that means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again, knowing that God has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).

    But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, Christians nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this does not mean that they had not previously repented from that sin, or that they as continued believers in Jesus Christ and His Gospel are not saved from hell. What they need to do is repent from that sin again, and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9, cf. Luke 17:4).

    Satan wants Christians to fail to continue to come to Jesus Christ, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins, which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).

    -

    Every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    *******

    It is, but not by them alone. For getting closer to God/Jesus Christ requires obedience to what He commands Christians to do (John 14:21,23, John 14:15-18, Ephesians 3:17-19; 2 Corinthians 1:22).

    Also, Christians will get closer to Jesus Christ as they serve Him in the particular spiritual work which He has given them as individuals to do (Ephesians 4:11; 1 Corinthians 12:28, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:8-11). So if they haven't already, Christians should pray, and ask God what their particular spiritual work is for Him, and do it every day (Luke 9:23, Titus 3:8, Mark 13:34, John 12:26).

    Thought processes should in no way be discounted with regard to knowing God.

    For Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must be also a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9), and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

    For example, in order for people to be saved, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).
     
  6. Wordkeeper

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    Wrong. Israel's sin was unbelief to revelation, not leaving dependency on the world system for earthly treasure, and not switching to dependency on God for heavenly treasure, being blessings to the world.

    Would you agree that Jesus told the woman at the well if she asked for baptism, access to living water, the revelation she received, proof of God's ability and willingness to make her a blessing to the world would be given, and out of her innermost being would flow springs of living water?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  7. Wordkeeper

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    Wrong. You cannot understand Scripture because you are not one of God's sheep. You haven't felt like them, been oppressed by the hard taskmaster called Egypt, and called out to God for help.

    God made men and put them in different places and situations hoping they would seek him, grope for him. Some became God's sheep, most didn't. His sheep are the ones who were dissatisfied with man's situation, who searched for Him, hoping they would find Him. They knew that living in the world would cost them their soul, that which made human beings different from animals. From those as poor as Lazarus to those as rich as Warren Buffet, each found that being friends of the world would require them to ignore what their better nature told them was right. It was too high a price to pay, to slip into the ways of the world for fleeting returns.

    "What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his priceless soul? they cried. They admitted they were foreigners in this old man, and God was not ashamed to be called their God, and He built a new city, a holy city, a new man, a new humanity for them to rest in, at great cost. Available to those who are in the New Covenant . Because if Joshua had led Israel into rest, David would not have written there remained a rest

    To those who cried out, He gave them to Christ. Christ is metonymy, synechdoche for revelation that God is able and willing to bring us into rest. Abraham received revelation, proof that God could and would bring him into rest, make him a blessing to the world, as promised. Joshua also. As did Christ. Israel disbelieved and did not enter rest.

    But didn't Israel leave Egypt and promise to follow God, obey Him unconditionally? Israel was the tares. The wedding guest coming not to enjoy the feast (the greatest revelation of God's ability and willingness to make us blessings to the world, the death and resurrection of Christ) but to pick for crumbs like vultures, like Simon Magus, and Ananias and Sapphira.

    Why did you not experience oppression? Because you have fed your fleshly nature, not your spiritual nature. Those who live according to the spirit will live, recognize Christ’s revelation. His sheep hear His voice. It resonates with them. Deep calls to deep. Only those the Father gives come to Him. The enemy sows tares and they are revealed when the voice of God calls. They do not respond. Like Israel.

    Hebrews 4
    1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

    3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
    “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
    although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALLHIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

    7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

    8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

    14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  8. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I would agree with this regarding Saint Photini (the Samaritan woman at the well), because Christ (Who is the Word of God) dispenses the Holy Spirit in accordance with the will of the Father. The Living water springing from within her would be the grace of the Holy Spirit which Christ would give to her. The Scripture irrefutably teaches that the living water is the Holy Spirit: "'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. Whoever believes in Me, just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)

    The Holy Spirit is received, personally, into the person (body and soul) of everyone who truly believes in their heart and confesses with their tongue that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead. The Bible (see above) states that those who believed in Christ were going to receive the Holy Spirit. That means that you, if you will believe and practice that belief, will be personally filled with the Holy Spirit and His grace will both transform and flow out of you. By this grace of the Holy Spirit working in and through you, you will have God - in you - working His goodness in the world, and you will be this true "blessing to the world" that you speak of in your posts. If you don't believe this, then you deny the very power of the Gospel and of the Holy Spirit, and are believing and teaching a different gospel than the Gospel of Christ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  9. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Church certainly does not discard the need for defending sound doctrine that defines, using reason, the boundaries of truth. But it remains true that a person can be mentally retarded yet be in Communion with God in the Holy Spirit, because the sort of Knowledge of God that saves is only had by becoming by grace what God is by nature. This happens only through personal relationship by the agency of the Holy Spirit, Who illumines the Son, Who reveals the Father. It is possible to have knowledge "about" God, which becomes strictly left hemispheric, systematic abstraction (scholastic knowledge) without actually being holy, as God is holy. So I agree with your assertions. I'm just clarifying the Church's stance, as I realize that brief forum posts usually don't provide enough background.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  10. Wordkeeper

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    Actually, the woman would experience what Israel experienced. She would receive the Holy Spirit, who would reveal God's ability and willingness to lead her into rest, allow her to fulfill the purpose for her life, be a blessing.

    God deprived Israel of water, then He provided it miraculously. Ditto with food. Joshua saw this, so that when God asked Israel to fight a superior enemy, Joshua knew that God would provide victory. Not Israel, though.

    Christ also created situations where the disciples were deprived of safety, food and even life. He then provided whatever was lacking, even raising Lazarus from the grave. When the Holy Spirit explained the significance of these experiences, the disciples feared nothing, not even death, in witnessing about God's ability and willingness to lead believers into rest.

    Would you agree Joshua and Israel understood the issues like described above?


    You don't understand what the issues are or are being careful, because it is can create huge changes, and problems in your normal routine, if you change your understanding.

    However you are very loyal to your group. And you learn the doctrine well. These are going to be very helpful when you understand what the real issues are, what the meanings you receive are within the actual context.

    What are we saved from? What is the good news? How will it change my outlook, cause me to change my mind about things, repent.

    All these will mean different when the issues are different.

    I will pray you read more of Scripture directly. I pray you fellowship with other believers who read directly from Scripture so that they can be a check and balance for what you will receive. Because that's how it was done and that's how it is taught to be done. In those very Scriptures.

    Sometimes one person picks up the cross. And another is resurrected.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  11. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Consider faith and grace in this manner....that we are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone, according to the Scriptures alone. This is more of less the slogan of the Protestant Reformation, they came to be formulated and known as the "Five Solas", the Latin words are "Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Christo, Sola Deo Gloria, and Sola Scriptura".
     
  12. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    It’s the “alones” that cause some confusion.

    And we are saved by grace. But to have that grace band to enter INTO it is only through faith
     
  13. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Faith of the saving kind, is a free gift, and that by grace alone. At least one of the reasons behind "faith alone" or the expression Sola Fide came out of the controversies and debates over the relationship between faith and works especially, even as it relates to practices and rituals within ecclesiology. The Reformer Martin Luther championed Sola Fide, it is a point of emphasis in his theology, of course the doctrine did not originate with him. So the Reformation brought these doctrines out of darkness and shed Gospel light on them, giving them attention, creating awareness of their importance, and attention to their centrality in the faith.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Okay. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Sola Scriptura. We are saved by Faith alone, which we receive thanks to Grace Alone, and we know this from the highest authority, Scripture Alone.

    :)
     
  15. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I agree with many of the reformation points against meritous grace or sacraments or works of the law or if the flesh for salvation

    But still to say faith alone when we are saved by grace is confusing
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I would say nine of those are alone they work in harmony each in its place

    But it is by grace we are saved as scripture says in many places

    If a man says he has faith alone and does not have the new birth by God’s grace is he saved?
     
  17. Albion

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    Faith is not a matter of "saying" you have Faith. Rebutting that error was the message of James's epistle. But a genuine Faith does save, as we read in Romans..."The Just shall live by Faith."

    The issue you seem to me to be hung up on concerns the meaning of "by" in any of these terms. We are saved by Faith but we get it only by Grace. So are we to say that we are saved by Grace? No, we are saved by Faith although we cannot get it on our own.

    It's like asking what causes our cars to move. Is it the engine or the gasoline? It's the engine, but it operates only because someone has provided it with fuel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  18. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I think it helps to consider an order, the order of salvation...that is the logical order, the God ordained order, as it relates to eternity past, present, and future.
     
  19. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    and yet Paul said

    2 Timothy 4:7
    I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"

    I think you misunderstand me here. i was referring to any who would say they are in the faith or have faith and yet do not have God working in them at the new birth which is by the grace of God.

    Some today say we are saved by "faith alone". But this is not scriptural. This is my point. And yes we cannot enter into the grace by which we are saved unless our hearts receive the word by faith. This is said to be "our faith" because our heart believes and receives the seed inwardly. This union with the seed in our heart and our newborn spirit in Christ, is the saving faith. This word in our heart is the life and this is the word of faith, or the word by which our faith is saving faith.

    And yes I would have disagreed rightly so with many of the reformers on many points. With Luther Calvin, Zwingli, Huss etc. But I would have sided with them again the Roman Church in many points as well.

    The reformers didn't go far enough in their reforms. They should have chopped off much more of the sacramental religion, the church order and forms that bind the saints. The New birth and spiritual gifts should have been more understood. The body ministry and true elders roles etc should have ben revealed etc etc. In many things they looked to much like their mother. The Mother they came out of has many daughters and we see the similarity in many today.

    and yet scripture says,

    Ephesians 2:5
    Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"

    Titus 2:11
    "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"


    I think the deep inward spiritual life in Gods grace at the new birth and the inward seed planted in the heart is not understood by many, since the reformation (although I have read some that did see these things way back even in the 1500's or so).
     
  20. Albion

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    I agree that those people misunderstand.

    Yes, it is. Nothing of ourselves contributes to our chances of salvation but only Faith in the shed blood of Christ.
     
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