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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

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    According to you baptism is the point of receiving the Holy Spirit. According to you, the Spirit is an uncreated energy meant to transform. I don't see the point of having faith with works if the transformation is being done by the Spirit.

    We have the Holy Spirit puttering away in one corner, sweeping away all the uncleanliness of our sins and we have the believer in the opposite corner holding the dust pan? The Holy Spirit needs help? Our confession of the need to repent isn't enough?

    Romans 8:
    12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    The correct teaching is to put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit... not by the Spirit plus faith with works.

    As for Seraphim, his teaching is so riddled with error, i don't know where to start in pointing them out. It's all nonsensical and unscriptural.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Suit yourself, then. But that Scripture you just quoted basically say that You, through acts of your own free will, have to, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the body in order to live. This seems a lot like "effective" faith (i.e. faith with works).

    I have tried to help you to understand what Scripture reveals, but your lack of spiritual understanding is beyond my ability to do anything with, which is why I referred you to something better (i.e. the link I shared). If that can't help you then I suppose that only God can. I'll trust in God's mercy and let this alone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  3. truefiction1

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    Our confession of the need to repent is certainly enough. But what comes after?

    What comes after is the same thing: confession and repentance. If sin comes after, then confession and repentance have obviously ceased. It they have ceased, are we therefor still saved?

    Repentance is ongoing and continual. Try continuing in repentance without the help of the Holy Spirit, and let's see how this works out.

    I'll tell you how it will work out... you will sin in your thoughts and in your heart and in your actions. He who commits sin is a slave of sin. If you want to be free, you will henceforth repent with the help of the Holy Spirit. That's all I'm saying and it is all that Seraphim was saying. We repent, and the Holy Spirit (the Helper) helps us to remain in the state of repentance, but only if we choose to have Him. If we choose instead to commit sin in our thoughts, hearts, or bodies, He will leave us to it. He does not force obedience on us. We decide how we will be in relation to God.

    The things you say give me the sense that you don't remain in constant prayer, and so you haven't any experience in spiritual warfare. It could also just mean that you haven't had very good teachers, or that you just haven't understood them very well.
     
  4. Wordkeeper

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    The problem with your premises is that they fail when compared with real world situations. You claim that those filled with the Holy Spirit glow. This is not scriptural. It's not even realistic. I know of no one who glowed when led by the Spirit. Then you claim that the Holy Spirit transforms believers, but could not prove it was of the Spirit or of faith with works. When pressed, you changed your view, that the Spirit reveals and it is up to the believer to transform himself.

    The best way to test premises is with what we call in computer parlance, live data. In this way we will see whose view is correct.


    Let's take a Scripture passage :

    Deuteronomy 5:21
    21'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.'

    Let's assume Paul's thorn in the flesh was coveting his neighbor's donkey.

    When he saw that burro, he immediately desired it. He imagined how it would be to have it in his stable, how proud he would be when he paraded his trophy donkey in front of the world, it was a very attractive donkey to be sure, and had won several what are donkey equivalents of beauty contests, donkey show prizes. It was hard to blame Paul for coveting this particular donkey. But deep in his heart Paul knew it was wrong to covet another person's donkey.

    He prayed once to the Lord to remove this temptation from his mind and the Holy Spirit was given because Jesus said that when our earthly fathers never withheld good things from us, there was no way our Heavenly Father would deprive us of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that when the Spirit is given we glow. What IS written is that the giving of the Holy Spirit results in leading into truth. . The Holy Spirit tells Paul that coveting is idolatry. Idolatry is orientating your life to serving self, even making images to worship , even though idols are nothing. You are so focused on getting what you desire you will even stoop to superstition. The Spirit reveals that desires are natural, it is what drives creatures to live and grow. These desires are nothing to be ashamed of. They are like horses which are powerful and fast. Desires are only sin when they are not under control. Just as the horse is useful only when it is under control. So Paul's desire is good if he can use it to a productive end. If he cannot acquire the donkey, if it cannot be bought, he must see what he can do with that desire. The Spirit also tells us that we have a body, we are not A BODY. When the body has desires even though we wish it does not have those desires, we can conclude it is not we who sin, it is the fleshly body that sins.

    This informative function of the Holy Spirit helps Paul in dealing with undesirable impulses.

    Paul again prays for help in getting rid of this impulse. THE Holy Spirit teaches Paul that God CAN take away the impulse, but has allowed it to remain to keep him from becoming proud. That's such an interesting thought. By becoming free from all impure thoughts (remember, Jesus said that even to think impure thoughts was sin) Paul would become proud. Of what? Of his performance! All his praying was so good, he had a perfect success rate! God didn't want that to happen, for Paul to be proud of his praying.

    However there was another problem. Weren't believer supposed to put to death all the deeds of the body, live according to the spirit and not according to the flesh.? How could he continue to harbour impure thoughts and not pray for them to be taken away?

    The solution to this is to know what Paul was writing about. If you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Here the Spirit has revealed to Paul that living is a not the after life. Eternal life is a TYPE of life.

    When you put to death the deeds of the body you will be in union with God. Eternal life is to know God, the way Joseph knew Mary. That is why Jesus prayed that the disciple would have unity with the Father, the way He had unity with the Father. Why is it important to have unity with the Father. So that believers could be a blessing to the world, the promise given to Abraham, just as Adam could bless the world because he had been walking with God, before the Fall.

    http://www.egrc.net/images/WFTR/Puzzling Passages/chayei_olam.gif

    This is Eternal Life
    by Lois Tverberg

    "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:2

    [The theme of this new Water from the Rock series is "Hebraic Insights on Puzzling Passages". We will look at some phrases and stories from the Bible that make us scratch our heads, and then shed new light on them using insights from culture and language.]

    When we read the line above from Jesus, it makes us stop and pause. It seems odd that Jesus would define eternal life as knowing him and his Father. Isn't eternal life living forever after we die?

    An interesting insight comes from how the term "eternal life", hayei olam (Hi-YAY Oh-LAHM) can be understood in a Jewish context.1 While it sometimes has our traditional understanding of life after death, hayei olam sometimes used in a different way, when it was contrasted with "hayei sha'a" (fleeting life). Hayei sha'a, fleeting life, is living a life that is only concerned about the short term needs of today - working, making money, eating, etc. Hayei olam, "lasting life" or "a life of eternity" refers to living a life focused on matters of eternal importance.

    Traditionally, Jewish people have considered the study of the Bible truly living out one's "eternal life." A story is told about a rabbi who spent years in study of the Scriptures, and then walked past farmers tilling their land. He remarked, "they have abandoned lasting life and involve themselves instead with fleeting life."2


    How can we be in unity with the Father if we have a thorn in the flesh, impurity in our life? Isn't it true that only the pure can see God? How can we be blessings to the world if we AREN'T in unity with God?

    The Holy Spirit told Paul that God's grace was sufficient, being in God's favour, His good books, was sufficient. How can we be in God's good books? By believing in His Son, being loyal to Him. Drinking from the Rock. Agreeing it was living water. Unlike Israel, which rejected the teaching that man did not live on bread alone, but by every command that came forth from the mouth of the Lord. Unlike Abraham, unlike Joshua, unlike Christ.

    Paul understood this as accepting all God's plans, instructions, commands. THIS WAS SUFFICIENT TO BE IN GOD'S GOOD BOOKS WHICH WAS SUFFICIENT TO BE A BLESSING TO THE WORLD.

    When we are loyal to Christ, are one with Him, have His commands in us, His blood hides our sins from view. A good idea would be to learn what kaporeth and hilasterion mean. Covering not imputation.

    The next post will deal with asking for terms of peace, which is also taught as sufficient.

    Acts 5:4
    4“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  5. truefiction1

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    It is Scriptural, because the face of Moses glowed, and Christ glowed. His three disciples saw Him do it and were amazed and bore witness. You know of no one who glowed because you've not received the gift of grace of the Holy Spirit to have ever seen it yourself. This doesn't mean its not real, and it's definitely Scriptural. I also have had no problem demonstrating that the Spirit transforms believers and that this takes place because of their repentance, which is faith with works. I even demonstrated that repentance is faith with works using Scriptural proofs. As a matter of fact, I've substantiated everything I've explained using Scripture, as did Seraphim of Sarov. I was never pressed by you, only questioned, and when questioned I never changed views. The problem isn't me. The problem is your own inability to grasp things that are being said.

    The problem is that you're so bothered by what you think I'm saying that you're not hearing the half of it.

    Christ "Glowed" when He was transfigured on Mount Tabor. His three disciples saw it and bore witness. "God is Light" and those who have God residing in them have that Light too. (Matthew 5:14) (2 Corinthians 4:6) (1 Thessalonians 5:5)

    The Way to the Father is through the Son, and the Way to know the Son is "in the Holy Spirit". "Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you." (John 16:15)

    The Holy Spirit is sent into the world for a reason.

    Also, the Spirit does not teach us that we "have a body". It is the spirit of antichrist that teaches this sort of dualism. It's true that there are desires of "the flesh", but those desires are not limited just to the body, because they afflict the whole human person: body and soul. Evil spirits, like Satan, are guilty of such "passions" too. Pride is Satan's chief passion. Yet, does Satan have "a body"?

    The body is not bad. The body is the creation of God and is one with the soul of a person. The soul does not reside inside of the body like a sailor in a ship. The soul and the body are one until death, by which the two are separated.

    Nobody knows for certain what Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was, because he never said. It could have been a badly infected ingrown toenail for all we know, yet you are claiming that it was some persistent passionate temptation. Even so, Paul didn't act on it. Instead he struggled to pray about it, so it didn't effect his purity of heart. He could still therefore see God.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  6. truefiction1

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    Paul believed differently. Paul never said that God's grace was "words". The Word of God and "Grace" are not the same thing. The Word saves, but only those who have the ears to hear. Visible revelations save, but only those who have eyes to see. Grace abiding within a person is the power that gives hearing and sight. You are conflating two distinct and separate Lights. The Word and the Spirit are two separate Persons, and Their ministries in our creation and salvation are uniquely distinguished.

    There is nothing hidden from God's view. Sins are forgiven, not hidden. But only those who can forgive can receive forgiveness, because they are the only ones who know what forgiveness really is. The ability to forgive from the heart is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is only by the power of God (Grace) that we can Love others as we Love ourselves.

    It's easy to see where you're going with this, but I'll tell you flat out right now that it's a false concept. The Scripture is clear: peace is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It's a gift and we don't negotiate for it. If we sin, we reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:4 does not support this false doctrine either. The problem with what Ananias did was that he "held back" something of himself by not giving what was determined that he could indeed give. That is death, because it deprives him of the Holy Spirit. What you're about to propose is that one can choose not to give everything to God, just so long as one has not yet agreed to give all of oneself to Him. This may be true of material possessions, but it is in no way true of ones heart, soul, body, and mind. Of these, nothing can be held back. To do so is to repeat the sin of Ananias and to imitate Lot's wife.

    "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" (Luke 10:27)
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    When the apostle Paul said: "it is no more I that do it" (Romans 7:17,20), by "I" he meant only his "inward" self (Romans 7:22), his spiritual mind (Romans 7:25,23, Ephesians 4:23). He wasn't denying that it was another, carnal part of himself doing it. For he admitted: "I am carnal" (Romans 7:14), and referred to the sinfulness of "my flesh" (Romans 7:18), and "my members" (Romans 7:23). And so he referred repeatedly to the sin which "I do" (Romans 7:15-16,19).

    It is the same with everyone. For everyone sins only after being enticed by his "own" lust (James 1:14-15). So in Romans 7:17,20, Paul didn't mean that Christians aren't responsible when they commit a sin. They still have to repent after they commit a sin (2 Corinthians 12:21; 2 Corinthians 7:9, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:19, Revelation 3:3), or they will ultimately lose their salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Paul's thorn in the flesh was not a sin, but a physical infirmity, possibly having to so with his eyes: compare Galatians 4:13-15. In Galatians 4:14, the original Greek word (G3986) translated as "temptation" does not have to mean temptation to sin, but can simply refer to when something comes to "try" (1 Peter 4:12) a person, in the sense of any "trial" or suffering of any kind (James 1:2-3; compare the idea of Romans 5:3). For while God never tempts people to commit sin (James 1:13-14), he can still try them in other ways (e.g. Genesis 22:1-19).
     
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right. And the false dualism is found in Gnosticism.

    Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is purely spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be purely spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven, called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap, humanity fell into the material universe, and became trapped within fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering within fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

    Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early Church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the Church during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 12:9).

    --

    Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

    1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

    2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

    3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

    4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, while they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

    The Bible contradicts each of the four points above:

    1. The material realm is real, and was created by YHWH God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God Himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39), and He remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

    2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) into an immortal human body of flesh and bones like the immortal human body of flesh and bones which Jesus Christ obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which He will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and at His Second Coming, He will show the scars of the Crucifixion on His body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a New Earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

    4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).
     
  9. Wordkeeper

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    You say the proof of the ministry of the Holy Spirit was a ¨glowing¨ in believers. You claimed to have exhibited this transformation. Because of this claim, many are being misled, will be chasing physical experiences, carnal sensations. Scripture says the proof of the ministry of the Spirit is leaving worldly things and being concerned about spiritual things. Spiritual things are what the spirit of Christ is also concerned about, Romans 8:9 and parallels:

    Romans 8:9
    You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of theSpirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
    Never said there was no reason. I did say the purpose that the Spirit is in you is not to make you feel sensations.
    Scripture says we have a body of death. Paul prayed to God to subdue his body:

    Romans 7:14-24
    14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
    Scripture is not concerned about the temporal. Paul prayed for his impulses to be subdued. See above. This also proves that the Spirit does not transform, else why should it be a matter of boasting by Paul? Prayer to God transforms.
     
  10. Wordkeeper

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    I said God´s grace was His favour. The Holy Spirit tells us to be loyal to God, just like it told Israel. They did not believe, unlike Abraham, Joshua and Christ. Because they drank, believed, they were in God´s good books. They could be blessings to the world.

    The revelation was of no benefit to Israel because they did not eat the flesh, drink the blood of Christ. Believe. ¨Christ¨ is metonymy for believing God, being loyal to God. They scoffed:

    Psalms 78:19
    19Then they spoke against God; They said, "Can God prepare a table in the wilderness?

    Can God give me definitive proof that if I leave the world system He will definitely give me heavenly treasure, with earthly needs added to it?

    The answer was that even if someone came back from the dead, they would still not believe, and obey, because they loved the world, safety, darkness.

    Acts 5:3
    3But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

    A thief robs your store. The police arrest him and put him in jail. This is covering, propitiation, letting you ignore your loss and continue with your business.

    You are paid back for your loss. This is removing the sin, expiation. You can continue doing business.

    To have full confidence in continuing with normal life, both propitiation and expiation should occur.

    Question
    Why is the New Covenant a superior covenant?

    Wrong. If you do not have the resources to finish the task, turn away completely from the world and follow Christ, you should ask for terms of peace, an alternative that can turn away the wrath of God:

    Luke 16:3-9
    3“The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. 4‘I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the management people will welcome me into their homes.’ 5“And he summoned each one of his master’s debtors, and he began saying to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ 6“And he said, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ And he said to him, ‘Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.’ 7“Then he said to another, ‘And how much do you owe?’ And he said, ‘A hundred measures of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill, and write eighty.’ 8“And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. 9“And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal shelters.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  11. Wordkeeper

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    How can this be dualism if the aim is to put to death THE DEEDS of the body?

    We don´t want the body dead, we want the deeds dead dude.
     
  12. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    If we don't have the resources to be perfect, then we continue to ask for mercy and continue to receive those resources from God. Those resources are called "Grace", and they are the gift of the Holy Spirit. Grace is more than "favor". Grace is the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the peace we ask for. It is the peace of which Christ speaks when He says "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives." (John 14:27)

    The parable you quoted of the wise steward is Christ's own teaching about how alms-giving brings the grace of the Holy Spirit when it is done in humility. The wise steward knew he was in a place of weakness and dependency, being a failure and helpless, so he did as much as was in his power to do. This is all that God wants of us. God wants us to be as the publican, not the pharisee. He wants us to be like poor Seraphim, who became full of the Holy Spirit through his deep and prolonged repentance.

    So, really, I don't deny what you're getting at here. But what you are not admitting (and you need to) is that what the wise steward is actually doing is repenting to the best of his ability. That "repentance" is the opening of the door of our hearts to receive the Holy Spirit into them. The parable of the wise steward is about repentance and how giving to those in need is an indispensable part of repentance.
     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Well, if the "passions" become dead, because we have put them to death by the Holy Spirit, then hasn't the body (and the soul also), having had the passions burned out by the fire of the Holy Spirit, been "transformed" into a temple for the Holy Spirit? (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    You're merely misjudging things you don't know, having never known them for yourself. You're also misrepresenting what I've said. I never said that the proof of the ministry of the Holy Spirit was the glowing of believers. I see in much of what you say about what I've written as "proof" that you don't have any accurate interpretation of what I'm saying.

    Spirituality is not conceptual. It is spiritual, and is come to be known only through true repentance. God is known through "experiencing His presence within oneself", not by the mere hearing of words "about" God's ways. Even a mentally retarded person can be in communion with God. It isn't about what we know in our minds. It is about Who we know due to His residence in our hearts. That is why we cannot be saved except that the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the very definition of Heaven. It's what Heaven is. It is what Eternal Life is. It is "being in the Holy Spirit" that is salvation.

    Forensic justification is not salvation. Life in restored Communion with God is salvation. This is by "repentance". What is repentance? Repentance is the cultivation of faith that is not without works. Repentance is how we "abide in Christ".
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  15. Wordkeeper

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    That statement is wrong. You did state that glowing was indication of a person who was filled with the fullness of the Spirit.

    Truefiction1 wrote:

    Quote
    Only if I am in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, and the only ones who will see this is those to whom it is also given to be in the fullness of the Holy Spirit also at such times. But yes indeed. The faces of those who are in the Holy Spirit do shine with such brightness that cannot be described. When our Lord's disciples saw Him transfigured, they were without any meaningful words. Only Peter babbled on, something about building a tabernacle at that place, because what they were experiencing was so Holy, so Heavenly, that:

    "'No eye has seen,

    no ear has heard,

    no heart has imagined,

    what God has prepared for those who love Him.'

    But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit." (1 Corinthians 2:9-10)


    Saved by Faith or grace?


    Apparently Peter was also filled with the fullness of the Spirit. Although he couldn't drive out demons. Because the fullness of the Spirit hadn't been given. Pentecost had not happened. And he didn't have enough battery to glow himself. Although he was filled with the fullness of the Spirit. Else he wouldn't have seen any glowing. All very coherent.
     
  16. Wordkeeper

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    The Spirit leads me into truth. I don't beat myself up about my natural impulses. God created them and said they were good. Because of the Cross, God's grace, His favor is on me. He does not see my sins. They are covered by the blood of Christ. I can approach Him and ask Him to take away wrong manifestations of the natural impulses. This is how God would have worked with Adam in subduing Creation. The Spirit gives knowledge of good and evil. God subdues what we ask Him to subdue, take away.

    The temple is the pool of knowledge which forms in the Assembly of Believers. Every church has the doctrines of the Apostles and the Prophets as the foundation, of which Christ is the chief cornerstone. Every member must build on the doctrines of the master builders, with precious material, Scripture. If some one uses tradition, straw and hay, God will destroy him, because he has weakened the building which houses the Revealer, the Holy Spirit. He will survive, but as through fire.
     
  17. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The parable, which we can use all parts of, teaches us to be shrewd and be caring for the future eventualities, which is the demand which will be made, even to Abraham, Joshua and Christ, to abandon trust in the world system, and put all trust in God.

    NO ONE CAN ESCAPE THE CALL.

    EVERYONE MUST ACCEPT.

    HOWEVER, YOU MUST ALSO ASSESS IF YOU CAN FOLLOW THROUGH ON YOUR ACCEPTANCE. ELSE YOU WILL BE RIDICULED; THIS MAN PROMISED HE COULD BUILD AND WAS NOT ABLE TO DO IT.

    IF YOU CANNOT COMPLETE THE TASK, YOU CAN ASK FOR TERMS OF PEACE, LESSER REQUIREMENTS OR MORE TIME OR HELP. WHAT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR MAN IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD.

    THE SHREWD MANAGER COULDN'T FOLLOW THROUGH. HE COULDN'T DO MANUAL WORK. HE DIDNT KNOW HOW TO BEG. HE DECIDED TO USE UNRIGHTEOUS MAMMON TO MAKE FRIENDS SO THAT HE WOULD BE SHELTERED.

    THIS WAS ACCEPTABLE. PETER SAID THERE WAS NO PRESSURE. ALL ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA HAD TO DO WAS TO BE HONEST. THEY COULD HAVE USED A PART OF THEIR RESOURCES TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH THOSE IN MINISTRY AND HAVE A PART OF CHRIST. THEY TRIED TO HAVE MINISTRY AND EARN HEAVENLY TREASURE WITHOUT LEAVING THE WORLD SYSTEM.


    John 13:5-8
    5Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” 7Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” 8Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
    9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then washnot only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” 10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

    Matthew 10:37-42
    37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

    40“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41“He who receives a prophet in thename of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42“And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  18. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    It was given to Peter and the other two disciples, at that moment of Christ's Transfiguration, to be in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. The fullness is given if and when God chooses. You read in Motovilov's "conversation with Seraphim" how he saw Seraphim transfigured, and that it happened momentarily because it was determined by God to be so. You also read how in the Scriptures that sometimes the Apostles had the Spirit with them, but not at other times. We also read in Revelations how the Apostle John says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day", which suggests that he is not always in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. There's a reason for the coming and going of the Spirit: we can only bear so much of His brightness due to the frailty of our fallen nature. We grow in grace and can bear more and more as we progress in our deification.

    I can see you're having great difficulty understanding. I think I know why. You seem to think very concretely about these things, and having constructed a "religious system" (as opposed to this "world system" you've mentioned at least twice), you aren't able to reconcile various non-abstract facets of Truth within the very abstract and concrete structure of this house you've labored to build in your thoughts. Knowing God, is Eternal Life (for the Bible tells us so). Knowing God is not done through thought processes. Knowing God is the gift of the Holy Spirit, Who reveals Christ, Who shows us the Father. This is a profound mystery. It is in the Holy Spirit that we receive the eyes to see and the ears to hear the Son of God.
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    What? The Kingdom of Heaven is not just a "future eventuality". The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand -- now. It becomes present reality in those who repent and receive the Holy Spirit. What do you mean that Christ will be required to abandon trust in the world system and put all His trust in God? Jesus Christ IS God, so how could He not put all trust in God? Have you just misworded this, or are you really this far off the rails of Truth? What sort of group is this that you've become entangled with that manufactures such ideas? Is there a name for it? Or is this belief system a product your own individual fabrication?
     
  20. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The eventuality is that God will ask you to put all your dependency on Him, and not on the world. You seem to have missed a big chunk of Scripture. That's why I said you have never been called.

    Did He do it with Abraham? Yes. First He demonstrated to Abraham that he did not need to act, to lie, to save his life. Then when Abraham understood God was always able and willing to save, he did not flinch when God called. He heard Gods voice and obeyed, unlike Israel, of which it is written, because of their unbelief (in Gods' ability and willingness to save) they would never enter rest, be perfect, reach the ultimate destination, be blessings to the world.

    Did God do it with Christ? Yes He did. For the sake of righteousness. Like Christ needed baptism, for the sake of rigteousness.

    You better read Scripture instead of all the pap your teachers are spoonfeeding you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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