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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Just s quick point here.

    I hear some on the radio and in person say we are saved by “faith” and they add the words “faith alone”.

    But in scripture we read that we are saved by grace through faith

    Ephesians 2 - 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. “

    Romans 4 - 16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”

    Romans 5 - 15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.”

    Ephesians 2 - 5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)”

    Romans 3 - 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”


    So by faith we enter INTO this grace

    Romans 5 - 2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
     
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  2. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I hear some on the radio and in person say we are saved by “faith” and they add the words “faith alone”.
    But in scripture we read that we are saved by grace through faith


    That's exactly right.

    It's not "saved by grace through faith alone" -- no.

    It's "saved by grace through faith".

    There's no 'alone' in scripture, and saying 'alone' is confusing at best, and sometimes worse. Often it's said as if to suggest verse 10 isn't there -- harmfully -- quoting verse 8 and 9 without the clear continuation of verse 10.





     
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  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    In what context did Paul write it, how did the church misinterpret it, and how did Luther try to correct the church?
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    From what I have observed, there are loads of people who don't find the wording to be at all "confusing." They do believe that we are saved only by Faith--and not at all by any of our own charitable deeds or acts of religious devotion.

    (Until the Reformation, these were said by the church in the West to be meritorious in the process of salvation [in conjunction with Faith] and necessary for salvation.)
     
  5. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I’m not saying we are saved by charitable acts

    But by grace
     
  6. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    You agree with me it appears, but here in the US midwest, it's very easy to hear on the radio "faith alone" in a way that removes verse 10, and so it's not trivial here at all. Bonhoeffer called this the "cheap grace" -- the idea that there is zero for Christians to do after they have faith, as if Christ said nothing more.

    In contrast the mainstream (I hope) interpretation is still held by a majority, who easily understand that we are saved by grace through faith, not works, and because we are redeemed and the spirit comes on us, we begin to follow Him and keep His commandments. So, all Paul and James say fit together perfectly of course.
     
  7. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    God's grace works in believers as well, and the word of Hs grace is able to build us up. This is God making us perfect unto every good work to do His will through Jesus Christ. This way as we abide in Christ we can show forth our faith. God's works are always needed, we see God's work on the cross without us and His work in us at the new birth. As we abide in Christ we are able to walk in the Spirit and do all things in Christ.

    these works are like fruit from a good tree.
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Yes, for me I understood verse 10 finally when I had read John chapter 15 again, and thus about the only way to bear true fruit.
     
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes John 15 is a good chapter about abiding in Christ and how we bear fruit.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I know that. I was simply giving a summary of the issue.

    You can say that, but what you really mean is that saving Faith is ours thanks to God giving it to us freely and not in response to any good deeds we have done in order to earn it. We call this free, unmerited, gift by the term Grace.
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Faith alone saves, and you are right that the majority of reformed churches hold to it still. The fact that some churches on the evangelical fringe have twisted that into what has been called a Gospel of cheap (or easy) Grace does not make them the majority or cancel out the correct understanding. And we should not talk as though it does.
     
  12. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    as we read in scripture we are saved by "Grace", through "faith". So grace saves.

    "it is of faith, that it might be by grace;"

    God's grace is His favour unmerited that is given to us and the divine influence upon the heart that affects our new birth and reflects in our life.

    This "seed" is sown in the hearts of men and when they receive it by faith they are born again and by faith Christ dwells in the heart. The faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 1:1 KJV). This inner reality is an inner evidence and substance. This is Christ in believers the hope of glory (Col.1:27 KJV).

    This is a very deep study actually. I was just touching on the depth of it.

    The free gift that came upon all men (Rom. 5:18 KJV) is the seed, or word of God sown through the work of Jesus Christ in time. This is the true Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9 KJV). This light is the treasure in earthen vessels so that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us (2 Cor 4:6,7 KJV).

    This is Christ in you the hope of glory.

    Though that seed is sown in every heart, it does not take root or sprout forth until the ground of the heart is broken up. This happens when the Light shines on their heart and reproves sin (John 3:19-21, Eph. 5:13 KJV) KJV). This is also known as the work of the law written in their hearts, (Rom. 2:14,15 KJV) and that which may be known of God manifest in them ( Rom. 1:18,19 KJV). Then as they are reproved and convicted by the Light and come to have godly sorrow and a broken spirit and a humble and contrite heart (Psalms 51:17 KJV) the ground is broken up (Hosea 10:12 KJV) and as they receive the seed God (John 1:12 KJV) looking to God's righteousness (which was witnessed in the law and revealed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21,22, Matt. 5:6 KJV). then this seed, or word, cones into their heart (Luke 8:11-15 KJV) and give them the power to be called the sons of God. This new birth is by the word of God, the incorruptible seed sown (1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18,21 KJV).

    This seed is close to all but not in all until the new birth (Hebrews 4:12,13, Luke 8:11-15).
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Faith saves. Grace is the means by which we get it.

    You could say that Grace saves, but that would be true only in the sense that the bank gets you to work every morning since it loaned the money with which you purchased your car. Most people would recognize that the car is what you drive to work, not the bank loan.
     
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  14. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I believe it is the Grace that saved and the faith is the door which we enter into it as Romans 5 says and Eph 2:8.

    Ephesians 2:5
    "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"

    The definition of what grace really is and what the word of God's grace is that builds us up is.

    We read in scripture of the manifold grace of God.

    here are some more verses to consider, this is a good study of what grace really means, and the gift of grace.

    Im off to bed now but here are some verses to consider

    Acts 20:32
    "And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."

    John 1:16
    And of his fulness have all we received,
    and grace for grace."

    Acts 13:43

    Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

    Acts 15:11
    But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

    Galatians 6:18
    Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

    Acts 20:24
    But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God."

    Romans 1:5
    By whom we have received grace and apostleship,..."

    Romans 12:3
    For I say, through the grace given unto me,..."

    Romans 12:6
    Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"

    Romans 16:24
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

    Ephesians 3:7
    Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


    1 Corinthians 3:10
    According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

    Ephesians 4:7
    But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

    Ephesians 4:29
    Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

    1 Corinthians 15:10
    But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

    1 Peter 4:10
    As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

    2 Corinthians 6:1
    We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

    Colossians 3:16
    Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

    2 Corinthians 8:6
    Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also."

    2 Corinthians 9:8
    And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:"

    Galatians 1:6
    I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"

    Galatians 2:9
    And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me..."

    Titus 2:12
    "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"












     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Everything is by grace, or else salvation would be impossible
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The word faith, grace and salvation mean different things to different people, but what is important is what it meant to the writer, because if we use the wrong meanings, we could lose out on important things. For example, if the memo says that pensioners could only collect their benefit if they were wearing white tops, imagine the fate of people mistranslating tops as caps and not being able to get their money! Similarly, we don´t want to hear the dreaded words ¨I never knew you”, be refused benefits, because of a misunderstanding of a word.

    The Context
    It has been stated that the problem facing Paul was the fact that the people he was writing to were not Jews, meeting in synagogues, but a group of people consisting of those who were considered acting against the teachings of Moses, blasphemers, and Gentiles! This was totally against the understanding that people in the Ancient Near East had about the God Israel had worshipped and His prophecies about her. It could only be understood as Godś word having failed: His chosen people were not going to be obedient Jews, but non-observant persons, cut off for mixing with Gentiles, contradicting those prophecies. Equally bad, His promise to Abraham, that his seed would be blessings to the world , an unconditional promise, meaning God would ensure Israel would be that blessing by being made righteous as a result of His presence, was false. The new people of God were being chosen because perhaps they were more righteous than Israel, without Godś presence!

    Not so, said Paul. In every church where he preached, Paul would teach that the new people of God, composed of both Jews and Gentiles, had been chosen because of grace, leniency, lowering of standards, just like Israel herself, not chosen because of her works, performance. There was no one righteous, not one nation, all people groups had failed to meet the standards, had sinned.

    Why would the church have thought that Israel had been abandoned? It was because of all the curses falling on her:

    6. Romans: Introduction, Argument, and Outline

    Quote
    All of the above explain why Paul wrote what he wrote to whom he wrote—except for chapters 9–11. Baur suggested that this was the heart of the epistle, while most today do not know what to do with it. Recently, Paul B. Fowler, formerly of Reformed Seminary, argued that “Paul’s primary purpose in writing Romans was to dispel anti-Semitism”5 He based his argument on (1) many internal clues (11:13ff., etc., where Gentile pride has cropped up; cf. the whole thrust of chs. 9–11); (2) one main external clue (the expulsion of the Jews from Rome by Claudius a few years earlier—which would certainly continue to have rippling effects, even within the church); and (3) a chiastic pattern unfolding some of the structure of the book (viz., in chapter 3 Paul asks five questions which are unfolded in reverse order throughout chapters 3–11). What is intriguing is that, concerning this last point (the chiastic structure), although Paul answers in brief the question of 3:1 (“What advantage has the Jew?”) in the next verse, he really expands on it in chapters 9–11. Although Fowler goes too far in seeing a response to anti-Semitism as the primary purpose of Romans, I think he is right that this forms part of the purpose. Perhaps, in fact, it may be precisely because Paul’s treatment of Israel’s future occupies his mind so much in this letter that he leaves out other eschatological issues found in his other Hauptbriefe.


    In other words, Paul wrote to the Gentiles that they had been included (saved?) by leniency (grace?) and not by performance (works?) JUST LIKE ISRAEL. Israelś cutting off was temporary, and the bad things happening to her were also temporary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    but God's grace only comes through faith to the believer. By faith we enter into they grace. No man can merit grace by works of any kind, espescially by doing a certain sacrament to merit grace for salvation. Also, no man needs to go to another man to perform a rite or sacrament to merit grace. God's grace is His free gift to all through Jesus Christ who come unto Him and believe in Him. Then as they come in their hearts to him and believe in their hearts on him ,they eat his flesh and drink his blood and have life in them. This eating and drinking is "spiritual". We, as well as the Old Testament saints eat the same "spiritual meat" and drink the same "spiritual drink" ( 1 Cor 10). Christ wants to come into believers hearts and "sup" with them. This inner supper is the life and how we eat and drink.

    "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart:". Feed yourself with the milk of the word. The word of His grace is able to build you up. Jesus said that the flesh profiteth nothing the words that he spoke they are spirit and they are life (John 6:63 KJV)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  18. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The grace of God brings salvation. But to come into that grace is only through faith.

    But some act as if we simply have "faith alone" for salvation. It is as if they are saying when you just believe you are saved without any new birth or real change in your being. It is as if they are saying nothing happens inwardly at salvation and you do not need to abide in Christ in you and walk in the Spirit to be saved or actually be a new creation to be saved. But this is not accurate and scripture says differently.

    Jesus said "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"(John 3:3 KJV). And Paul said "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"(Rom. 8:9 KJV). Unless Jesus Christ is in any believer their faith is vain and they are reprobate. (2 Cor 13:5 KJV). Only by having Jesus Christ actually in us are we "in the faith".

    So, this grace is Christ working in us by Gods favour unmerited to us, through our faith. It is as if faith opens the door for us to allow God to work in us and give us life. He creates in us a new heart and our spirit is born again.

    When Jesus said a man must believe and be baptized to be saved. I see this similar to faith and grace. The believe part is the faith, and the baptism part is the grace.

    believe = faith

    baptism (into Christ) = grace



    "By whom also we have access by
    faith into this grace(Rom. 5:2 KJV)

    "By
    grace are ye saved through faith" Eph 2:8 KJV)

    "For by one Spirit are we
    all baptized into one body,..."(1 Cor 12"13 KJV)

    "That
    Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..."(Eph 3:17 KJV)

    "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Galatians 3:27 KJV) I am not talking about WATER baptism here. But the saving baptism into Christ at new birth, this is the grace that saves through faith and as we abide in him through faith.

    "Abide
    in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


    When we believe or have faith, we are trusting, not in our own works but in God's work on the cross for us, and when we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ we are immersed INTO Jesus Christ and he in us. This is the grace part, for Paul says by faith we enter INTO this grace. Paul also said "By one Spirit are we all baptized INTO one body" (1 Cor 12:13 KJV). This immersion into the body of Christ is the new birth and where the new man is created anew. The God works in us to make us perfect unto every god work, working in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13;20,21 KJV).

    These works of God on the cross and in us are how we are saved. So when James says how "faith without works is dead". Yes, this is true, for unless God is woking in us we are dead, and it is only by Christ that we (the new man in Christ) can do all things, without Christ in us our faith alone or empty, without such work of God we are vain and empty.

    It is as a man who is alive has the spirit in him if he is dead we see no spirit. So a believer without God's spirit in him is dead also. In this way, (by having God's Spirit in) us and living in the new creation we can show forth our faith. The works are not merits works of our old man or works that we do of ourself. But God working in us at the new birth and making us perfect as we abide in Him through faith. Such works flow from God in us as fruit from a tree. The tree must first be planted and growing to be alive and this life is only in Christ. This is the grace of God that bright salvation IN us and this grace is only entered into and remained in by faith.

    So the by faith we enter into the grace. And by grace are ye saved and by continual faith we continue in the grace. "persuaded them to continue in the grace of God." (Acts 13:43).

    The confusion comes, because we must live by faith and by faith we overcome the world. We cannot deny the faith or cast off our faith. Yes, we must always live daily by faith and believe the gospel to continue in the grace of God. Only through our daily faith can we walk in the Spirit, for Christ dwells in our heart by faith. Then when we are in Christ and he in us we can do all things. The old man is crucified with Christ buried with Him and risen with him. This new life of ours is walking in that newness of life in Christ. This is the daily grace we live in where the divine influence of Christ light, seed word, truth and power work in us and we are given the Holy Spirit as well to empower us in this walk and guide us.

    Jesus said to the disciples at one time,

    Luke 8:25
    And he said unto them, Where is your faith?..."

    Without such faith God is not working in the heart and life by His grace. I pray that we can all say with Paul,

    1 Corinthians 15:10
    But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  19. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    If this problem is pretty absent where you live, that's very good, and I'm glad to hear it's less widespread then. It's not absent or only a few where I live. Of course someone able to help is not to ignore when a misunderstanding that actually matters for salvation happens though, so here we have to help complete the picture. I'm sure where you live there are other issues, but this is a big one over here.

    Just the same, here's one of the songs I enjoy, popular in this area on the radio (if one listens to Christian music radio while commuting, they've heard this one at least dozens of times in the last year or 3), and even though it doesn't complete the picture, it does give that crucial first step of how this grace is so amazing. There's nothing at all wrong with giving only a first step -- that our works aren't the thing at all, but His Grace, the Amazing! -- and nothing more in a song I think. After all, a song won't finish all the gospel. But it may help communicate our attitude -- we are only rescued from ourselves by the Amazing Grace from above.



    So you see, we have that really well here, and it's the confusions that happen about following Him, a large part of what a church is to be about of course, that we all work on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  20. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    a few more scriptures to consider about this

    Romans 5:8-10 KJV
    "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
    Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

    Ephesians 2:5 KJV
    "Even when we were dead in sins, hath
    quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"

    Romans 4:25
    "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

    For if a man says he has faith and is not born again can faith save him? Is he saved?

    But if a man is born again and is a new creation can we say he is saved? Yes.

    And if they are in Christ having access to this grace by faith and continue to abide in Him by faith, can we say they are now saved? Yes.

    So, by faith we believe, are justified and reconciled, by grace we are saved and born again and also justified.

    Titus 3:7
    That being justified by his grace,..."

    Romans 3:24
    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    The doctrine of justification is a large one as well, for another post perhaps. But consider scripture says we are justified by,

    1. grace
    2. faith
    3. the blood
    4. the Spirit of God
    5. works, (God's works)
    6. Jesus resurrection
    7. by our words
    8. by Christ.

    But we are not justified by the works of the law or our own dead works of the flesh.
     
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