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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    None of the Scriptures you're quoting are being interpreted correctly by you. We on the other hand know that Christ did not teach His Apostles that they should stop Baptizing with water. If He had, they would have stopped. Instead, we see that they continued to Baptize with water. We don't ignore Scripture, because Scripture agrees with our understandings and practices. You do, so that you can tell such stories as have arisen from your imagination which have no Biblical and historical foundation.

    You may have spent 30 years praying and studying, but you did not directly receive instruction from the Apostles of Christ. The early Church did, and the early Church Baptized with water: the practice remains in the original Church until this day. This is the witness of both Scripture and validated historical witness.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    This is the very short answer of Scripture and Holy Tradition to the question of what it means to be saved "by grace, through faith".

    Saving "Grace" is the Holy Spirit. We are saved by this "Holy Spirit" if we continue to receive Him into ourselves through "continuance/perseverance in faith" in God's promise of Eternal Life: The promise that came to us through His Christ. This is the meaning of Salvation by Grace, through Faith.
     
  3. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Did Jesus teach his disciples that after his death animal sacrifices and circumcision and zeal for the mosaic law and old covenant should be done indefinitely?

    No. But we see them doing so all through Acts as I showed just a few verses for this of the many that could be shown.

    You base your understanding mostly on man made tradition and a misunderstanding of the new covenant and the gospel.

    And as I showed in Acts 1 Jesus said that John baptized with water ( past tense) but he shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost (future tense) let’s start with that scripture.

    I believe I have received instructions on this from the Lord I heard God soeak to me about this many times. And Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel.

    Jesus also said to then before his death

    John 8 - 26. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. “
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Jesus said

    John 16 - 12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

    John 8 - 26. I have many things to say and to judge of you:”

    There were not able to receive certain things at that time and even after Jesus death. But the Holy Spirit would gradually show them all things

    Imagine if Jesus had told them before his death that the entire religion they had lived in all their lives was going to be reformed and changed and no more temple, no more sacrifices, no more water baptism, no more circumcision etc and that they will die for their faith etc.

    A person cannot go against the knowledge they have and to have s good conscience they must have knowledge, so until then, they could not understand some things, but God was gracious in the time of reformation and transition for them and gradually they saw more and more. Paul had a major revelation of the new covenant and he revealed much.

    Imaging Peter getting up at the temple in Acts 2 and saying to the thousands there that their entire religion has changed and no more temple, the priesthood is changed, no more sacrifices, no more circumcision, no more mosaic law, no more dietary laws, or old covenant etc. He himself did not fully understand this yet so he had to speak according to his conscience and the knowledge he had. This is why they still went to the temple sacrificed circumcised followed zealously the mosaic law and customs of the Jews and Johns old covenant water baptism that was for Israel’s program under the law.

    Consider these things
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  5. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Apostles received the fullness of the Truth when they received the fullness of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Afterwards, they Baptized people into the Church using water Baptism, and did not fail to teach the Church elders whom they'd ordained to do so also. Your theory that Baptism with water is some Old Testament ordinance that was supposed to be replaced by nothing, simply just does not "hold water" (pun intended).

    But the whole point you are missing is that God has never been against religious ritual being a part of His people's lives and worship. God is both the God of the Old and the God of the New Covenant, and the observance of Holy rituals (rites) is perfectly valid in one as in the other. Hence, in the Church of the New Covenant there is a Baptismal rite that is practiced which involves the use of water, just as it was practiced by the Apostles.

    What point is there to doing away with such "visible" rites from within the gatherings of Christ's followers? There is only one real point to doing so, and that is to remove visible expressions of the inner Life of the Faith, so as to make the faith as "invisible" to the surrounding world as possible. Who is it that really stands to benefit from the "hiding" away of these visible expressions of the faith in worship of the Holy Trinity. I'm afraid that we all know full well who stands to benefit the most, and it is neither us, nor our Lord.

    There are many ways that the enemy seeks to convince us to hide our lights under bushels.

    The Council of Jerusalem (Acts) decreed that gentile Christians did not have to observe the Mosaic law of the Jews. Gentile Christians, however, were still received into their local Churches by water Baptism, and always have been. Water Baptism is a rite of the New Testament Church, among several such rites.
     
  6. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    In Acts, it's obvious that the followers of Christ practiced the "bloodless" sacrifice of the New Testament rite of Holy Communion. Going to the temple to pray and to preach was something they would have continued to do as Jews until they were prohibited by temple authorities from doing so. Eventually Jewish Christians would be forced underground, by persecution and the banning of their religion, where they practiced the New Testament rites elsewhere. Water Baptism is a New Testament rite.
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Now, I'm afraid that spending too much time posting in Christian Forums is preventing me from impacting my local neighborhood with the joy of the Truth of our impending Resurrection to Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    I'm going to have to stop here. Thanks so much to all of you for taking part in these discussions. Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us.
     
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    You are very wrong in your understanding and you run after carnal things

    2 Corinthians 4 - 18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.”
     
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    These things are more important for you to learn first before you go and try to teach others

    You need to come out of the Eastern Orthodox and learn the true saving gospel before you try to bring other people into your bondage

    Sorry I had to be s bit more bold towards you but I see you as very confused and bound up under traditions of men
     
  10. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    And yet the Jewish believers went into the temple all through Acts and still practiced animal sacrifice of blood as scripture clearly shows . You need to study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.

    “ Acts 21 - 26. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purifcation, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.”
     
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    So your claim that the Kingdom of God is IN a person is wrong.

    In Post#612 truefiction1 wrote :
    Quote
    The Holy Spirit is He Who brings God and His Heavenly Kingdom to Live inside of us. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot participate in this Heavenly Life. If you deny this powerfully Biblical and Spiritual Truth, then you deny the very power of the Gospel.


    The Kingdom of God was not even IN Christ.

    The Kingdom of God is a situation, a change from the rule of the prince of this world to the primacy of God, manifested in signs and wonders, showing God has begun to directly involve Himself in the world, initiated not by religious observation, meat and drink observations, fasting and prayer, but by righteousness, peace and joy from revelations of the Holy Spirit, cleansing by the word.

    In this we see the faults of the Orthodox view, the frequent translation errors they make. Just as eating bread and wine are external cognitive acknowledgments of the stricture on believers to follow Christ, be of one mind with him, con-fess, with-speak with Him, agree, that we must do as He did, pick up our crosses daily, instead of being means of "grace".
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That brought to mind:

    Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God . . .

    This means that as Christians choose to continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23), they continue to have access to God's grace (Hebrews 4:16). At the same time, other verses show that it is only by God's grace that the elect (the chosen) (Ephesians 1:4-11, Romans 9:11-24, Acts 13:48b) are given God's miraculous gift of faith in Jesus Christ in the first place (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2).

    *******

    Note that there are at least eight Biblical reasons to read the 1,000 years (the Millennium) of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus Christ's (still unfulfilled) Second Coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

    First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

    Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the Tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur right after the seventh-and-last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and He will rapture and marry the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then He will completely defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

    -

    Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 are when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal Bottomless Pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' Second Coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan will not be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

    Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his False Prophet, and the unsaved armies of the world, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts. So Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil on the earth will be defeated at Jesus' Second Coming.

    Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus Christ and the bodily resurrected Church reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His Second Coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth (of Revelation 21:1-3), because Zechariah 14:8-21 refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the New Earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth, because it refers to surviving non-Christians from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the New Earth, all non-Christians from the present earth will have been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

    Sixth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the Church will occur at the Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

    Seventh, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety only to physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all of the non-Church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the Church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

    Eighth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the Church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection cannot have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' Second Coming, when He will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).
     
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    In Acts 1:5, Jesus Christ was simply bringing up the concept of "baptism" in order to apply it to Holy Spirit baptism. He was not denying that Christians should both be water baptized in His name and be Holy Spirit baptized. For note what even the apostle Paul did later:

    Acts 19:1 ¶And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit.
    3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye [water] baptized? And they said, Unto John's [water] baptism.
    4 Then said Paul, John verily [water] baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    5 When they heard this, they were [water] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    Here, the apostle Paul's question in Acts 19:2 relates to how Christians are to be water baptized:

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, [water] baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son [the Lord Jesus Christ], and of the Holy Spirit...

    That is, if the people whom the apostle Paul was speaking to in Acts 19:1-6 had been Christian water-baptized, they would have heard of the Holy Spirit. But they said that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Therefore, they needed to be Christian water-baptized, as in Acts 19:5.

    Also, note two other things in Acts 19:1-6.

    First, people do not automatically receive Holy Spirit baptism after they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul asks his question in Acts 19:2.

    Second, Christian water-baptism does not automatically impart Holy Spirit baptism. That is why the apostle Paul had to lay his hands on the people in Acts 19:6 in order for them to receive Holy Spirit baptism, even after they had been Christian water-baptized in Acts 19:5.

    Note that this was also the case in Acts 8:15-17. That is, the Samaritan Christians got Christian water-baptized first. And then sometime later they got Holy Spirit baptized, through the laying on of hands.
     
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