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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I never said it is anything of our works that save us. I keep saying it is by grace we are saved.

    I am also against this type of things in many churches, where they say a person must be water baptized to be saved, or some sacrament they do. This would be something they do added to the gospel to be saved (1 Cor 15:1-4 is the gospel)

    Do you add works to the faith or to the gospel of salvation, such as sacraments of water baptism or the Lord's supper?
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Obviously, I have not been able to make you appreciate that it is Faith that saves, nothing else...and having that Faith we owe to having been given a free, unearned, gift from God. We call it Grace.

    You can word it so that it seems like Grace, not Faith, saves; but Grace doesn't save by itself; it imparts Faith and that is what saves.

    Those are acts that were instituted by Christ for our benefit and commanded of us. They are not "works." In the Christian religion, "works" are acts of mercy or charity or devotion
    which people perform and then think that they are earning merit with God.

    What you are referring to--the sacraments--were created by Christ, not us, and we merely receive them, just like the believer receives the gift of Grace that we have been speaking about.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Holy Spirit "explained"? You seem to be teaching that the only point of contact that the Holy Spirit has with believers is in the written "Word of God", in Scripture. Whereas the Church knows that the Holy Spirit comes and abides inside of each faithful person. What exactly are you teaching here about the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Can a person with faith be filled with the Holy Spirit or not?

    Another problem I'm recognizing with your approach to Scripture is an overemphasis on Old Testament readings and an under-emphasis on the New Testament. The Old Testament must be interpreted by the Light of the New, because the New is the perfect fulfillment of the Old.

    From experience in spiritual combat, the saints have discovered that one of the ways that the demons tempt and draw a Christian away from the narrow path that leads to salvation is to convince them to stop praying and to read more Scripture instead. Once the Christian has given into this temptation, the demons convince them to spend all of their time reading from the Old Testament and to neglect the Gospels. What this lack of effective prayer and obsession with Old Testament stories does, is to create certain kind of non-salvific spirituality which is void of the grace of the Holy Spirit. In other words, it robs the person of the Holy Spirit, Who comes because of the work of Christ as revealed in the New Testament. Also, having been prevented, by the demon's suggestions, from praying, then they begin developing faulty ideas about the way to salvation based upon reading Scripture without the understanding that only the grace of the Holy Spirit can provide.

    From what I can see, this pretty much sums up your present predicament. You don't even acknowledge the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person. You even seem to be rejecting the very idea of it. This is not the Gospel of Christ if you're doing this. This is a different Gospel and a differently defined Christ. We who have been believing the same Gospel and the same Christ for over 2000 years are not interested in it.
     
  4. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Huss wasn't a reformer. Huss was, in essence, an Orthodox Christian priest trapped in the world of Roman Catholicism because of his geographical location. He is informally honored as a martyr saint by Orthodox Christians who reside in the country where he served. His theology is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic and not Protestant.

    The reformers went much farther than needed in their reforms. The more radical the reforms the more useless and harmful the new religions that were produced became, even becoming extremely dualistic to the point of implicitly denying the coming of God in the flesh, which manifests itself in the rejection of meaningful use of any sort of physical matter as means for Communion with God. This is the spirit of antichrist at work, attempting to dissolve the true power of the Gospel of Christ until it is eventually removed to such an extent that the Anti-Christ can come into power. False teachers, false prophets, imposter messiahs, heresy and schism, corruption of Christian pastors and others... countless reformed denominations and countless differing beliefs... all these things have eaten and torn away at the fabric of Christianity throughout the centuries, introducing stronger, more irresistible, and even overpowering, Godless philosophies and ideologies in the social cultures of mankind. The evil and atrocities of the last two centuries which are unprecedented in the whole of human history show us how evil we are becoming. Only the Church, as the body of Christ, prevents evil from reigning supreme over all of mankind. Your reforms, which you are so proud and assured of, only contribute to Satan's plan to wipe the Church from the face of the earth. While you may indeed be saved by Grace, through faith, because of God's unending mercy, your heresies will never survive the fire of Truth in the Holy Spirit. They will be burned up.

    Jesus Christ, the Word of God, commanded Israel to observe Holy rituals of worship, and these rituals were physical and spiritual by design, because we (humans) are both physical and spiritual by God's design. For this reason, our Holy rituals must be both physical and spiritual. Jesus Himself practiced these holy rituals. He taught His disciples to practice them also, and they passed His teachings into the Church. The rituals are Holy, which means they are a means through which God gives grace (the Holy Spirit) to those who believe. These rituals are not the "only" means through which the Holy Spirit can come into believers. Prayer and fasting are indispensable means by which a believer can acquire the Holy Spirit (saving Grace). Alms-giving can also serve as a means by which the Holy Spirit will come to reside more fully within a person (the whole person - body and soul). But only if the gift is given for Christ's sake, rather than for one's own sake. Any time that we move toward God with our attention and seeking, it opens the door for the Holy Spirit (Life giving Grace, aka the "Living Water") to enter into us. The Holy Spirit does not just sanctify the soul, but the body also. Otherwise Scripture would not explicitly state that we can "by the Holy Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh". Our bodies and our souls (both corrupted by sin) are subdued and cleansed by the healing and saving Grace, which is the Holy Spirit: the Life giving water that washes and makes pure, and the Divine Fire Who purifies the believer, body and soul, thereby rebuilding it from a ruined residence and house of all sin and corruption into a golden temple of the Living God and a member of the Body of Christ.

    Removing the use of actual water from the Holy ritual known as Baptism is not a good thing, because as human beings we are Divinely designed to Commune with God using physical materials that are mystically united to heavenly and spiritual realities. The water used in Baptism is meant by our Lord and His disciples as a physical ritual that brings about Communion with God in the Holy Spirit.

    Point is, the rituals are important for our kind. God gave them to us, through His prophets and through His Christ. Now the dualists who disdain the use of physical matter as means for mystical Communion with God, which is by Grace through faith, do their best to rob themselves and others of as many of these Grace filled physical means of Communion in the Holy Spirit as they can. Most of the world has now abandoned the Holy ways, having become "spiritual but not religious". But Jesus Christ is religious, and will never be otherwise because He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. All those who truly know Him are religious also, so we practice the Holy rituals together in the Communion of the saints, throughout all the ages.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hus did affirm number of the (heretical) beliefs later asserted by the Protestant Reformers, however. Luther was impressed by the similarities when he became aware of them.
     
  6. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Those aren't "works" added to the faith. They're works "produced" from within the faith. There's a difference.
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    He didn't affirm any heretical beliefs of the reformers (that we know of). He merely cut out all the theological and ecclesiological developments that took place in Romanism, which distinguished it from Orthodoxy. Lutherans were also of the belief that they would find an ally in the Orthodox Church in supporting their reforms. But their reforms had gone far too far, so that they had become outright heresies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    no either way you look at it a false sacramental religion that has works of righteousness that you do to be saved is not the true and saving gospel of 1 Cor 15:1-4.

    It is not by ordinances either.

    carnal ordinances were imposed upon them until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9). Yet some add other ordinances for salvation and in doing so make another gospel.
     
  9. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    LoveofTruth, it is so good to see you posting again. We missed you.

    The meaning of "grace" is the problem. It is much easier to understand the gospel when "grace" is interpreted the way the apostles meant it. If Luther had understood the true meaning of grace, he wouldn't have started the heresy of "make your sins strong, but make your faith in Christ stronger! Nor would he have said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." Luther's understanding is what Paul spoke against - "sin so unmerited favor may abound."

    Grace interpreted as "unmerited favor" is what happened when Christ died for our sins while we were yet sinners. However, when we repented and we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gift of grace became the power of God.

    Acts 4:33 shows the Semitic style of writing of the apostles. This is an example of parallelism. Saying the same thing in two different ways. One explains the other. In this case, grace is power. "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

    Now go back and re-read the scriptures you posted, and substitute power for the word grace to clarify the true meaning of the Word.

    This power of God is why we are dead to sin - Romans 6:2
    It is why we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit - Romans 8:9
    It is why a Christian cannot commit willful sin. 1 John 3:9

    We have the power of the living God residing in us.
     
  10. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Holy rituals have never been false and never will be. Neither are they "carnal ordinances". These precious gifts are given to us who believe by God Himself, through His holy prophets and then finally, by His Christ. They are all means by which the Holy Spirit can enter into us, although not the only means. I wrote more about this in my other post.
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Yes. I agree with this as written. I have to ask, however, do you believe that this "Grace" (a.k.a. the power of God, or the Holy Spirit) is ever found to be residing, inhabiting, and/or passing through physical, material substances, such as human bodies, parts of human bodies, water, oil, smoke, food, dirt, clothing, or any other such stuff? Why so or why not?
     
  12. Wordkeeper

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    You are ignoring the fact that Israel was rejected for unbelief, of the revelations of the Holy Spirit. There was no Scripture in the Exodus, the Holy Spirit taught through situations.

    1 Corinthians 10:1-7
    1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”

    Hebrews 3:14-19
    14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

    15while it is said,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”

    16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
    .......


    You are also avoiding building your views with precious material, Scripture and using hay and straw, traditions, which have not stood the test of fire. is not God's word like fire, a hammer that breaks even rocks?

    Jeremiah 23:28-32
    28“The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lorddeclares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Christ dwells in believers hearts by faith. That dwelling in the hearts of believers is the grace that saves.

    This has nothing to do with outward ordinances for salvation.

    Read 1 Cor 15:1-4 again and see that no ordinacnces or sacraments or Mosaic law, or Sabbaths, r eating or drinking , or water baptism etc are added to it. To do so is to make another gospel, pain and simple as we read of in the holy scriptures..
     
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Nobody denies that grace (the Holy Spirit) comes into a person by faith. But Jesus practiced and taught Holy rituals to be observed in His Church and so did His Apostles. Your teachings, springing forth from your dualism afflicted psyche, are definitely at odds with His and with the Apostles. The Holy rituals are not ordinances. They are precious gifts from God, given by His Christ through the preaching and teaching of His Apostles. Yet you would be well pleased to rob God's little ones of them, and merely because your mud covered eyes can only see well enough to spot various displays of sinfulness and corruption that has come about due to the faithlessness and apostasy of those who use the institution of the Church for selfish gain, but you have no real power of discernment to be aware of the presence of God's grace (i.e. the Holy Spirit) at work in the mystical body of Christ, which is the Orthodox Church. Only those who have the Holy Spirit residing in them can recognize the Holy Spirit's presence in other believers and in the practice of the Holy rituals. You claim to have the Holy Spirit residing in your heart through your faith, yet you don't recognize His work in the hearts and minds of those who observe the grace-filled Holy rituals practiced within the Communion of saints in the Holy Church that Christ built up by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

    Neh.
     
  15. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    They Holy Spirit is a person, and He comes and Lives inside of you when you practice your faith with unceasing repentance. He teaches you directly through intimate contact with your own spirit. By His teaching you can gradually learn the Holy mysteries of God as they are present in the Word of God -- Christ. These mysteries exceed what the rational mind can comprehend. This is Orthodox Christianity: the Faith of the Apostles who established it upon the very Truth that Christ revealed to them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them. If your version of the faith denies this, then it is a dead faith.
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
    28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    Note that the desire to seek the omnipresent God is not in anyone before they become a Christian (Romans 3:11). And nonelect people are not considered by God to be His children, but the children of the devil (John 8:42-47, Matthew 13:38b-39), even though they can only exist because God exists, just as even the devil himself can only exist because God exists.

    John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    This means that those who are Jesus Christ's sheep (elect people) will hear His voice in His Word (the Bible), and will eventually believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), while those who are not His sheep (nonelect people) cannot ever hear (accept) His Word and believe in Him (John 8:42-47). Elect people come to Jesus and get saved only because they had previously been given to Jesus by God the Father (John 6:37). And they come to Jesus only by God the Father drawing them to Jesus (John 6:44). Faith is a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). Elect people believe and are initially saved by God's choice, not their choice (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 15:16). But the ultimate salvation of elect people will depend on their choices subsequent to their initial salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30). For salvation does not take away free will.

    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

    Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Revelation 21:9 ¶And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    Note that this refers to Israel's twelve tribes in its description of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:9. And the bride of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:30-32; 2 Corinthians 11:2).

    Revelation 21 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem in heaven is a picture of the Church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else. For example, in Matthew 21:19 the fig tree was literal, and at the same time its being without fruit pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

    Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the Church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's twelve tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the Church consists of Israel's twelve tribes.

    New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus Christ left to prepare a place for the Church (John 14:2). All those in the Church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the Church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant suffering and death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    The Church looks for Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and His setting up of the physical aspect of His Kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), a time period commonly called the Millennium. New Jerusalem will not descend from the third heaven to the earth until after the future, New Earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The Church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).
     
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    But note that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in its widest sense, includes much more. That is why the first four books of the New Testament are called "the Gospels", and why the Gospel of Mark can say that the Gospel begins with Mark 1:1. And so the Gospel can include everything in the Gospels, including their eschatological teachings (e.g. Mark 13). And if the Gospel can include New Testament eschatological teachings, then it can include the eschatological book of Revelation, and all of the apostle Paul's eschatological teachings, as well as his soteriological teachings, which he rightly claims are based on Old Testament prophecies (Acts 26:22-23). This is why Christians hold to the entire Bible as being vital to Christian faith (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4).
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Daniel 12:7b shows that at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will come to a Church which will have been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed by God to make war against the Church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all of the physical power of the Church that the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), of all times. And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all of the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God will not share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

    -

    Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades would not prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the Church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the Church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

    That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades would not prevail against Jesus Christ (Psalms 107:16), when, after His physical resurrection, He went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament believers from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You state that the living waters is the Holy Spirit.

    What spiritual drink did Israel drink in 1 Cor 10?

    1 Corinthians 10:1-7
    1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”

    What claim from God did they disbelieve in Hebrews 3?

    Hebrews 3:14-19
    14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

    15while it is said,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”

    16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19Sowe see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
     
  20. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I never thought about it. Why do you ask?
     
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