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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Wrong. The passage corrects the thinking that God had replaced the Jewish nation with Gentiles because they had become better. God now taught that His people were identified by faith, not by ethnicity. However, this was always God's intention, because He called Abraham the Father of God's People, identified by loyalty. Israel had been hardened so that the prophecy could be fulfilled.

    Romans 3:11
    There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Wrong.
    God created everything and said it was good. That means it was good for growth. As long as creation was not subdued, it was under the devil, worldly impulses. However, once men grew up, matured, could think, could choose, then they were God's children. It means the new nature was a product of men using the spiritual side of their mind, because of God's revelation. If men choose not to grow in spite of God explaining the situation to them in the hope they will grope for Him, then they remain the children of the devil, their worldly impulses.

    John 8:42-47
    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me,p for I have come here from God.q I have not come on my own;r God sent me.s 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,t and you want to carry out your father’s desires.u He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.v 45 Yet because I tell the truth,w you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.x The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    Matthew 13:37-39
    37And He said, “The one who sows them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

    Wrong. All that is required to be known about God for the purpose of salvation is revealed by Him in creation, that He is holy and requires us to be holy. Those who agree are His spiritual children, and they recognize the shepherd because he has the same values as the Father.

    Wrong. The Holy City is Rest, the final destination, a condition when man can be a blessing to the world, as Adam was meant to be.

    The Exodus never ended in rest, even when Joshua was the leader, because Adam himself never completed his journey. The Old Humanity was not only blocked in its tracks, it itself needed to be blessed because it was defiled by sin.

    The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses

    Quote
    The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  2. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    First of all every saint in the Old Trstament from the time of Adam till Christ death had the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father before the Holy Ghost baptism was given as scripture teaches.

    Secondly I am no against the saints having a live feast together and remembering the Lord in the bread and cup. But show me the expression “grace filled ordinances”

    It is you I fear that do not discern the body of Christ

    We being manybare one bread and one body and we are all partakers of that one bread.
     
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    All that this means is that they could not enter God's rest -- could not receive the Holy Spirit/Grace -- because they were faithless and perverse. Those who because of unbelief can't receive Grace/Holy Spirit don't get Christ. Christ can't be had without Having the Holy Spirit also, because the Spirit reveals/bears witness to the Son, Who reveals the Father.
     
  4. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Who said anything about grace-filled ordinances. I said that the God given Holy rituals are not ordinances at all. They are gifts from God which we are taught by His Christ to observe, through the teachings of His Apostles. To deny them is to deny Christ Himself. That you are doing so would be laughable, if it weren't so damnably evil. The New Testament is the perfect fulfillment of the Old Testament, not the other way around. So what if Baptism wasn't practiced by Old Testament Saints. It's what Christ told us to observe, through the teaching that He gave His Apostles to pass into His Church of the New Testament in His blood. He taught us to observe certain things which are good for us to observe. It is good for us to observe these God-given Holy rituals using water, or oil, or smoke of incense, or other such material things. We do it and will continue it by the grace of God because He wills for us to do these things that are for our own good to practice.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  5. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Hey good to see you again, glad to be back.
     
  6. Wordkeeper

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    What was the Spiritual drink that the unbelief was a result of? Why are you avoiding answering what the drink was which was not believed?

    What did Ananias and Sapphira not believe?

    What did Judas not believe?

    Why did God not make arrangements for water and food in the wilderness?

    Why did Jesus not immediately go to Lazarus when He heard he was sick?
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I was curious what your determinations on this might be, just on account of how spot on you were about the nature of Grace.
     
  8. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Bible states it (John 7:38-39) “'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. Whoever believes in Me, just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him. He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive."

    The spiritual drink that Israel did drink in 1 Cor 10 were the "externally" manifested proofs of the presence of God's power being among them. These "manifestations of God's power" were the work of God's Spirit. So it is the Holy Spirit Who was their spiritual drink. The Rock from which the Holy Spirit (Life giving water) flows, is Christ. Christ is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit understands the Word of the Father and accomplishes it. The Holy Spirit flows from the Father through His Word (Christ) to the fulfillment of the Father's will in this created plane where exist, and seas are parted, manna falls from heaven in the wilderness, and nomads drink from a spring of water that instantaneously begins to flow out from a dry rock the moment that Moses hits the rock with his staff. These were all external manifestations of God's Almighty power to accomplish all that He promises by His Word. Those who had witnessed or had otherwise been made aware of these manifestations of God's power should have "believed and obeyed God's Word". But they neither obeyed nor believed. Belief and obedience are two sides of one coin. If one of them is missing, so is the other, and there is no coin. This is how faith is. Faith is the two-sided coin of belief one one side and obedience on the other. If either one of these coin sides is missing, then so is the other, and what we have in this case is called "faithlessness".

    Those Israelites saw God's power but still weren't saved. The same thing can happen to any of us. So the writer of Hebrews is warning us, lest we should end up like those faithless, dead Israelites.

    They did not believe God's promise that they would receive Eternal Life (enter into God's promised rest). They fell into the spiritually dead state of being called "faithlessness". "Faithlessness" = "unfaithfulness".

    Israel cheated on her Husband (God), got lost while wandering in the wilderness of sin without her husband to provide her with spiritual food and drink, and so she died out there in her self imposed exile into that dry and barren land. Same thing can befall any one of us, if we do not persevere in the Life of Faith.

    Now, since Christ became glorified, the modus operandi of the Holy Spirit in our world is not quite the same as it was in the Old Testament. Whereas in the Old Testament revelations, we mostly see the Holy Spirit in the form of "externalized" manifestations and revelations of God's power and presence. Don't get us wrong here. The Holy Spirit continues to operate in the way still. However, from the time of Pentecost on, the Holy Spirit is become more internally abundant inside of the faithful, because of what Christ did and on account of His glorification through all that He does for us. The New Testament Scripture and Holy Tradition of the Apostles bear witness to this Truth.
     
  9. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    1 Kings 19
    11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.

    13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

    14 And he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”

    15 Then the Lord said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria. 16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. 17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
     
  10. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The spiritual drink was the holy spirit. The rock that the spiritual drink flowed out of is the Word of God (Christ).

    Ananias and Sapphira were "faithless", so they neither believed nor obeyed.

    Judas did not believe and obey God's Word or God's Spirit, even after having seen the Power of Both. Judas was "faithless". Judas Betrayed His Husband and so died, just as the Iraelites died in the wilderness without their Husband to provide Life to them.

    Because the Israelites rejected God and could not take the great blessing of Life that He wanted to give them. It was their choice to believe and obey, or else disbelieve and don't obey. They chose the latter, and so can we all. And, we are never deprived of this choice until our death or until His return, whichever comes first.

    He did this so that the Almighty power of God would be made manifest to those who were witnesses and heard testimony of the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead. This was done by the Power of the Holy Spirit obeying the Word of God (Christ) so that many would come to believe in God's promise of the resurrection of all at the end of the ages. This promise came through the Word of God (Christ), and the Holy Spirit is our "Helper" and our "Comforter" Who helps us to believe and obey. The Holy Spirit doesn't "make" or "force" us to believe and obey. He can only "help" us to do these things insofar as we choose to. He also comforts us so that we can succeed in persevering in faith. He can either do this by external manifestations of God's power and presence, or by doing things "internally" (inside) of us.
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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  12. Wordkeeper

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    Wrong. The spiritual drink was the revelation that God was able and willing to bring Israel into rest, be complete, be blessings to the world.

    Wrong. They disbelieved the specific external revelations, the finger of God, the kingdom of God in their midst, that God was able and willing to bring them into rest, be complete, be blessings to the world, right there, right then.

    Wrong. He disbelieved the specific external revelation that God was able and willing to bring His followers into rest, be complete, be blessings to the world.

    Wrong. God intentionally created problems and solved them, to show He was able and willing to bring His followers into rest, be complete, be blessings to the world.

    Wrong. God intentionally created external problems only and solved them, to show He was able and willing to bring His followers into rest, be complete, be blessings to the world, today.

    None of them repented, not even Jerusalem. If the wonders that Jesus performed had been seen in Sidon or Tyre, they would have repented, stopped believing in the world system as a way of life, and believed God was able and willing to give them a more meaningful Way, be blessings to the world for permanent rewards.

    Your traditions have been weighed and found lacking.

    Jeremiah 23:28-32
    28“The prophet who has a dream may relate hisdream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lorddeclares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.
     
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    All Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

    In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

    Romans 11:28 means that some non-Christians are the genetic descendants of Abraham (John 8:37, Acts 13:26, Romans 11:1, Acts 7:2, Acts 3:25). And some of these non-Christians are elect, and are beloved in part because of their genetic descent (Romans 11:28-29).

    All the still-living, elect, non-Christian genetic Israelites who don't become Christians before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will become Christians (and so will become members of the Church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at His Second Coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect genetic Israelites will eventually become Christians and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, whether Jews or Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

    That's right.

    For Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 foretold that Jesus Christ's Gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile Christians (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile Christians by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

    Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus Christ's first coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23), and His sending forth of His apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

    Not for salvation. But people can simply know that God exists by seeing everything else that exists (Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-4). For the universe couldn't have created itself from nothing by physics, because of the 1st law of thermodynamics. So something outside of physics had to have created the universe. The term spirit is used to refer to something which exists outside of physics. So what created the universe was a spirit (John 4:24, John 1:3). And this has to be an uncreated spirit, because nothing, not even a spirit, can create itself from nothing. For in order to create itself, it would have to already exist. So just by being able to see the universe, people have no excuse for denying the existence of an uncreated spirit, who is known as God (Romans 1:20, John 4:24, Psalms 19:1-4). And God must have eternal power (Romans 1:20), for the 1st law of thermodynamics requires that even the energy in the universe is eternal.

    Because knowing that God exists is the only reasonable response to seeing the existence of the universe (Romans 1:20), when educated and intelligent people refuse to admit that God exists, this is only because they are intentionally choosing to be unreasonable (2 Thessalonians 3:2), choosing to be foolish, regarding God's existence, because of their human pride, their unthankfulness to God, and their desire to continue in sinful actions (Romans 1:21-22, Psalms 14:1). But there is no salvation in simply believing that God exists (James 2:19). Believing in Jesus Christ, the human/divine Son of God, and His suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day, is the only way for people to have their sins forgiven, so that they won't have to go down into hell when they die (John 3:16,36, Romans 3:25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
     
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    We indeed need to persevere.

    For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy, would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy, would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution, he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

    This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist, instead of worshipping him in order to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).
     
  15. truefiction1

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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  16. truefiction1

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    The Word of God (Scripture) says that the Living water is the Holy Spirit, Whom those who believe in Christ are to receive because of Christ's glorification, and you say, "Wrong", the Living water is just "revelations".

    I don't think there's anymore point to continuing this discussion, because unless the Holy Spirit comes and abides in you, and gives you ears to hear and eyes to see what the Word is telling and showing you, then you can't possibly agree with anything being said or revealed right here.

    So, carry on then, I guess.
     
  17. Wordkeeper

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    Show in Scripture where Israel drank the Holy Spirit.

    Psalms 106:6-15
    6We have sinned like our fathers,
    We have committed iniquity, we have behaved wickedly.

    7Our fathers in Egypt did not understand Your wonders;
    They did not remember Your abundant kindnesses,
    But rebelled by the sea, at the Red Sea.

    8Nevertheless He saved them for the sake of His name,
    That He might make His power known.

    9Thus He rebuked the Red Sea and it dried up,
    And He led them through the deeps, as through the wilderness.

    10So He saved them from the hand of the one who hated them,
    And redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.

    11The waters covered their adversaries;
    Not one of them was left.

    12Then they believed His words;
    They sang His praise.

    13They quickly forgot His works;
    They did not wait for His counsel,

    14But craved intensely in the wilderness,
    And tempted God in the desert.

    15So He gave them their request,
    But sent a wasting disease among them.

    John 6:31
    Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"

    1 Corinthians 10:3
    They all ate the same spiritual food 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    Hebrews 4:2-8
    2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
    3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
    “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
    although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GODRESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTERMY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

    7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

    8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

    John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14
    14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 5:47
    47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48“I am the bread of life. 49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

    52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

    1 John 2:24
    As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

    1 John 3:24
    Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

    The sin of Israel was unbelief, so they had disbelieved God. They forgot the great works He had done in Egypt, with His outstretched arm. Just as Jerusalem disbelieved the WORKS, done by the finger of God.

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  18. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Yes, we are very well acquainted with this Scriptural passage telling of the Lord being this "still small voice". This is because the Orthodox Church has had to defend its longstanding practice of "hesychasm" which is from the Greek word "hesychia", meaning stillness, rest, quiet, silence. By "keeping prayerful stillness", we are able to be taught directly by the "still small voice" of God, Who can't otherwise be heard very well.

    On the other hand, however, isn't it true that in His Divine Providence, God has many times involved crude, earthly materials in demonstrations of His Divine power? Has He not allowed and caused the crude materials to become conduits through which His power flows, or radiates? Not, per-say, out of necessity, but perhaps out of His perfect knowledge of what is most beneficial for all in the long run?
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I already did show and explain all with Scripture. You won't accept what Scripture reveals. There's nothing more I can do through discussion. God's outstretched arm is His Holy Spirit. God's finger is the Holy Spirit. They didn't believe and obey and so couldn't be saved by the Holy Spirit, even though God wanted them to receive His Holy Spirit and be saved in this way. If you're not receiving the Holy Spirit/Grace, through faith in and obedience to Christ, then you are neither saved nor being saved.
     
  20. Wordkeeper

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    Actually, one is saved by believing Jesus's words, eating Jesus's flesh, drinking His blood, giving up hope in the world system, and placing hope in God:

    Deuteronomy 8:3
    "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

    Matthew 4:4
    4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

    Luke 19:8-9
    8Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.” 9And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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