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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The Protestant expression is, 'saved by grace through faith ', the New Testament will tell you apart from works. All Christian theology Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant agree that sanctification by the agency of the Holy Spirit must follow. In the context of the Reformation justification by grace through faith basically meant apart from the Catholic Priesthood, the sacraments or any human agency or practice. In Luther's day people would contribute something called indulgences, giving money to Rome in order to have family in Purgatory forgiven for their sins. When the early Anabaptists arrived on the scene they were persecuted because they practiced baptism by immersion.

    Justification by grace through faith is normal salvation as the church has always taught, going all the way back to the council of Jerusalem. The controversy surrounding justified by faith has more to do with who the agency of salvation is. For the early Protestants it was faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    No, it does not mean that. Those who believe in Jesus Christ will do the will of His Father. Those who do not, will do the will of their father, Satan, and will perish along with him.

    The "text" is a parable, so every word of it is not to be taken literally. All of Christ's other sayings do not agree with the existence of any "middle of the road" option for salvation. One must believe and repent, or not repent and so not really believe. Both what Christ states "immediately before" and "immediately after" telling these parables informs us as to what the message of the parables is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Just a small note of correction. Orthodox Christian Theology makes no distinction between "Grace" and the Holy Spirit (Life giving/sanctifying power of God, or God Himself in the form of His uncreated energies). Our understanding, then, is that "Salvation", or "justification" is by the Holy Spirit (Grace) through faith. This means that there is no separating salvation from sanctification. They are one and the same thing. Wherever sanctification (Theosis) of a person ceases, so does the existence of effective faith (faith with works). This occurs at whatever point a person ceases to repent (repentance is belief that is not separated from its fruits). For this reason, a person must struggle to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, opening the door to Him by bearing fruit befitting of repentance.
     
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I am n ot a protestant or a Roman Catholic or a Eastern Orthadox etc. I am christian, follower of Jesus

    but about some who say faith alone", we read

    "“We are saved by faith alone..." Martin Luther

    "Justification by
    faith alone, is the hinge upon which the whole of Christianity turns." (Charles Simeon)

    "I'm afraid that in the United States of America today the prevailing doctrine of justification is not justification by
    faith alone..."(R.C Sproul)


    "Justification by faith is the hinge on which all true religion turns" (John Calvin)

    so it appears that many do speak of Faith ALONE". You rarely here any say in person or on the radio that we are justified and saved by grace, or the Spirit of God as scripture says as well.
     
  5. Wordkeeper

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    Wrong. Several Scripture passages offer different options.

    The options are:

    To get eternal life, obey the commandments:

    Matthew 19:16-18
    16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

    To become a disciple, reach the ultimate goal, give up all you have to the poor, and pick up your cross, imitate Jesus:

    Matthew 19:20-22
    20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
     
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    That sounds about right, sanctification must follow justification.
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Well, nobody can "really" keep the commandments without the Holy Spirit in them. It's impossible to "Love your neighbor as yourself" unless you are become "Good". Right? And didn't Christ tell this man "No one is good but One"? (And He was referring to God here)


    The man who owned much property went away grieving because he could not obtain eternal life. One of the commandments is "You shall Love your neighbor as yourself". Even though the man had thought that he was keeping the commandments, he wasn't really doing so, because if he Loved, he would not care about his possessions. But because he cared more about keeping his possessions than caring for those in need, he cared more about himself than anyone else.

    It's impossible to keep the commandments without the Holy Spirit (Grace) and faith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  8. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    We don't distinguish different meanings of these terms. They mean the same thing, so one does not follow the other. They are just different words that mean "salvation", and salvation is just one of several words that mean "restoration of Communion with God".
     
  9. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The oft used phrase, justification starts the sanctification process. Sometimes the distinction between justification and sanctification leads to the impression they are two different thing, but the separation is purely academic.
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Wrong, the publican in the temple was "justified" in right communion with God. He tried to follow the commandments and failed. He was humble and God lifted him upThe Pharisee followed tradition, watered down versions of the commandment and succeeded, but his success was not in following God's commandments. The law humbled, killed, that's how it worked in the Old Covenant.
    Wrong. He could have asked for terms of peace. With God, all things are possible. If you asked for daily bread, the Holy Spirit, you would have known this. Instead you ask for energy, a carnal force.
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    What? I don't ask for energy, or any carnal force. I ask for the same thing the publican asked for: mercy. We all try to follow the commandments and fail. Failing is the way to be taught humility by the Holy Spirit. I might be wrong about a lot of things, but my Church isn't, nor is Scripture. These are the source of the faith that I Live.
     
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You claim the Holy Spirit is an energy that transforms your carnal impulses to spiritual ones.
     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Holy Spirit is a Person: God the Holy Spirit. He comes and abides in us, or "dwells" in us. We become His temple through our active faith (which is the same thing as repentance, which is what the publican was doing).
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    How can the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person be equated to repentance?

    Please explain the process.
     
  15. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Think I'll jump in on this one. Repentance in the New Testament to change direction, at the seat of moral reflection. In short it's your attitude, we know what people do, God knows why. This only happens under the agency of the Holy Spirit. Every aspect of your salvation is a gift from God, when you confess your sin God doesn't need to hear every cruddy little thing you did, you should be searching your heart for hidden from motives.

    Something else, when the Bible says 'justified', it's the same word translated righteousness, just another form. This isn't just God forgiving him, the Scriptures tell us Abraham believed and it was credited to him for righteousness. In other words God doesn't just forgive the debt, he deposits money in your account, so to speak.
     
  16. Wordkeeper

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    Truefiction1 <staff edited> says the Holy Spirit, the uncreated energy of God, transforms a person, overcomes his or her carnal impulses, hate, lust, pride and turns them into spiritual fruit: love, kindness, meekness. So what does the faithful action of the believer do, if the Holy Spirit does all the work?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2018
  17. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The faithful action of the believer opens the door for the grace of the Holy Spirit to rebuild the broken, fallen person who is repenting, into a temple for Him to dwell in. We must work with the Holy Spirit here. This requires acts of our own freewill which direct us towards God and away from sin.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2018
  18. Wordkeeper

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    You mean the uncreated energy of God needs help, even after baptism, when we declared our intention of wanting to be good? What's the point of baptism, then?
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    It's quite a long read, but the saint known as Seraphim of Sarov described the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation as well as it probably can be described. He did it during a conversation he'd had with one of his pupils, a man named Nicholas Motovilov. Motovilov later wrote down everything Seraphim had told him in a story. It starts like this:

    "It was Thursday. The day was gloomy. The snow lay eight inches deep on the ground; and dry, crisp snowflakes were falling thickly from the sky when Father Seraphim began his conversation with me in a field adjoining his near hermitage, opposite the River Sarovka, at the foot of the hill which slopes down to the river bank. He sat me on the stump of a tree which he had just felled, and he himself squatted opposite me.

    "The Lord has revealed to me," said the great Elder, "that in your childhood you had a great desire to know the aim of our Christian life, and that you continually asked many great spiritual persons about it." ... (READ MORE)

    Someday if you feel the need, you'd do well to read the story, and especially about the strange things that happen near the end of it.
     
  20. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Baptism is the beginning of the Life in Christ (Life in the Church) wherein we die to ourselves and rise up into a new Life in the Holy Spirit. Baptism begins a continual way of being.
     
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