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Featured Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The proof of salvation is in living a saved lifestyle. But faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a work of the flesh. Before the new birth, the flesh is all we have to work with. So any belief rooted in the flesh is not biblical faith, but merely mental assent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  2. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    This is true although I have never met anyone trying to earn salvation except the JWs and Catholics. I have met lots who refuse the claim that God demands they love Him and love others as they love themselves. The call it "the law" and claim they are freed from all laws including those two although so far not one of them puts it that way. When asked if the law to love GOd and love man is binding on them, they refuse to admit it is but quote something like it binding on all christians. Reminds me of Jesus asking his disciples who they say he is and they tell him what everyone else says, except Peter, who had the moral courage to say what he believed that bound him to that truth. The others ran from it.
     
  3. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Since nothing that God does is random, it is based on God foreknowledge and His purposes according to His sovereign will.

    Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
     
  4. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Bible verse?

    Bible verse?
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But at the same time, faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not a work of the flesh.
     
  6. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am interested in your line of thinking here. Obviously, you are killing omniscience (all-knowing), as a characteristic of God. I certainly don't like the word "evolve," because I don't believe in the pseudo-scientific mythology of one species becoming another and those mythologists use that word, too. But, I can certainly see how He hones us--like a Potter. I also don't know that I can consider this world to be a closed system that we cannot escape from. People commit suicide. People commit abortion. People commit all variants of murder. I believe God has to allow any of these things to happen; but it certainly questions the closed-system "evolving" idea.

    Based on Scripture, He doesn't wait until our end to see our heart, thoughts, and choices, if ever. He clearly sees people of other religions who He knows have a heart for Him if He exposes them to the truth, because there are plenty of stories of Him appearing to a muslim with no Christian testimony around. I can accept this as a possibility, because of many times in the Scripture where God seems to respond as if He is surprised (Adam and Eve, Abel and Cain, Noah's time, Babel, etc).

    So, if you move into limited omniscience:

    (1) When and how does God notice a choice, thought, or heart?
    (2) How do you maintain that God isn't caught off guard by something another does before He knows about it?
    (3) If God is caught off guard, then how do you know that He can keep His promises to you?
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no opportunity to be saved. If there so, we didn't need Christ to save us.
     
  8. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    If You dont obey.(which is the action of faith).you have have no faithfulness.
    For to be disobedient is completly Unfaithful.

    Lets concentrate more on Doing what Jesus says
    And less on excusing ourselves for Not doing what he says.
     
  9. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2Peter3:9

    "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" Deut 30:19

    Jeremiah 21:8
    You are also to say to this people, 'This is what the LORD says: Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death.
     
  10. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    The lord Jesus became that oppurtunity.
    Its what the father sent him to do.
    Now that he succeeded we must obey him to avail ourselves of His salvation that HE has made available through the cross.
    For there is greater punishment for those that do not Obey the gospel.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Opportunity = self-salvation for the self-righteous. Real salvation is for any who cannot save themselves but trust in Christ instead.
     
  12. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Your not reading what i posted.

    We could not save ourselves.
    We were without hope

    God sent Jesus and he obeyed the father and he made a way of salvation available to us.
    Thus salvation is BY grace. (God graciously did that for us.)
    Through faith (the action taken when one believes Jesus.

    Its both grace and faith.
    Its never been one without the other.
    And never will be.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But........ you decide to be saved or not? In my case, I didn't want to be saved but God saved me anyway through the new birth and faith in Christ. Jesus said: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)
     
  14. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

    We are ultimately saved.....When this becomes a reality to one, is the ultimate choice of the one on whom the choice is given.
     
  15. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    God is not a man to be so concerned with having more or less glory. He is not a worker on a job who gets happy when receiving credit for their good works and gets sad if the credit is given to to another.

    These sentiments are what robs God of His glory.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, people who are good enough to save themselves by meeting conditions, rob God of his glory in salvation.
     
  17. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that everyone will be saved and they need do nothing to realize this salvation?
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Active Member

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    Uh, actually, that is not what it means. Paul is saying that when we were saved we were declared to be positionally righteous. In other words, the salvation God placed within us was perfect. So now we are told to "work out" that salvation. That is, externalize it, so that it is not just something hidden within us, but is now being externalized so that others can see the change in us and can begin to see what God is doing in our life.

    "Externalize that perfect salvation I put within you. Don't allow it to be hidden inside where nobody can see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven."
     
  19. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    There is a third option that I have heard, that God foreknowing, which means knew before, is saying, that in times past, the people that God knew (had a relationship with) he determined to bring to completion in Glory. In other words, it's not a statement about us at all. It's just saying that what God did for the saints in the OT, he can do for us. So, it is a promise, not a statement of God simply arranging events a certain way, which is how most people read "predestination." Most see it as some kind of fatalism. I don't think Paul meant it that way at all.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Active Member

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    No "free will" there.

    No "free will" there either.

    Still no "free will."

    You see, "free will" has nothing to do with making choices. We all make choices every day.

    "Free will" is a denial of what Paul says in Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death."

    The lost man's will is not free, it is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

    And the saved man's will is not free, it is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

    The will is not free. It is in bondage either to the law of sin and death or to the law of New Life in Christ.

    Again, as Paul says, in Romans 7:18-23 "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good.
    19 For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice.
    20 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
    21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.
    22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward man,
    23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

    He then asks that heart-felt question in Romans 7:24 "What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?"

    Then he answers his own question in Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, sin’s law." :)
     
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