Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[joshua 1 9]

I wholeheartedly believe that some people who have murdered, used drugs, committed adultery, etc, will be found in the Kingdom of God.

"Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (Matthew 21:31)

God can see our end from our beginning

He declares the end from the beginning "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10 "Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it"

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

You seem to think that those are the only beliefs, and mutually exclusive.

Consider the possibility that for God to foreknow is to forecause. God does not operate within our order of things, perhaps the most relevant to this subject being the fact that he is not subject to time as we are, he being the "inventor" of time for his own purposes.

But that isn't what the words God chose means. Either the word used for foreknew or the word used for predestined should bring us to see that God forecauses. But, neither does. Those words are listed at the bottom.

Where in Scripture did it say that God forecaused satan to fall or forecaused adam to sin? Did God forecause Jesus Christ to die on the cross or did He allow Jesus Christ to die. Even Jesus said that He could have called legions of angels to rescue Him, but Jesus chose "God's will be done" and allowed Himself to be tortured and murdered for a greater purpose. Did God forecause man to "repent the LORD that he had even made man" and plan to destroy man off the face of the earth, only to also forecause Noah to find grace in His sight?

What is clear that God foreknew all these things were going to occur, because if He didn't, there would have been no reason for Jesus Christ to be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

4267 proginosko
Meaning: to know beforehand
Origin: from 4253 and 1097
Usage: foreknew(2), foreknown(1), knowing beforehand(1), known previously(1).

4309 (proorizo)
Meaning: to predetermine, foreordain
Origin: from 4253 and 3724
Usage: predestined(6).

In the greek, the first word means the same as Strongs shares. However, in the greek, the second word actually means: "to decide upon beforehand, predestine"

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

"Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (Matthew 21:31)

He declares the end from the beginning "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10 "Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it"

Thank you for adding the Scriptures!

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I wholeheartedly agree with the Scriptures; so I trust you on the "according to the foreknowledge of God" rather than the "random choice" side.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Based on the Bible.
God knew me while I was in the womb.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated.

The Book of Romans states that God the potter can raise one up for good and one for bad.

Who are we but, little men to question God?

M-Bob

For the record, I don't question God. I question man's perceptions and interpretations. If God wants to make one vessel for honor and one for destruction, as the Absolute Sovereign, He certainly can do that and without question doesn't need anyone's permission or approval to do so. But, I believe He is long-suffering to endure the one who deserves to be destroyed for the sake of the one who hasn't come to Him yet, but whom God knows will.

Just like God knew you while you were in the womb, God also knew Jacob and Esau. And, just like God wasn't surprised by satan's choice or adam's choice, He wasn't surprised by Jacob or Esau's choices in the end.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I believe based on God's foreknowledge, He foreordained individuals. Though this is just coming to me as I respond, I am reminded of King David as a type/shadow of us. He was, within time, foreordained/anointed to be king before he actually became king. God told Samuel that He looks at the heart when He chose David to be the future king.

You will have to forgive me but I'm in pain so I'm going to discuss this topic in conversation format.. make it easier for me as I'm sure you know the scriptures involved.

There is a clear difference between foreknowledge and being foreordained. Those are two different words with two clearly different meanings.

God has foreknowledge of all of us, He knows all the choices we will make before He created us, He knows us.

God has foreordained some of His creation to various ends; some to kingship, others to faith etc.

But what comes first, the chicken or the egg, is the type of question you seem to be positing here and in the end, this type of question is pointless really, as the Bible says in Isaiah 45:9-12 (I think?) Who are we to question why God does what with what He created? We are but the clay in the hand of the potter.

What we know is that we are 100% depraved. Our nature on its own will never choose Christ and that God, in His Grace has chosen to save some us, not by anything we did, but because of who He is.

And that? That is good enough for me.

 

[Chris V++]

'26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. '
Deuteronomy 11 26-28.

'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ' 2 Peter 3:9

Seems like our personal choices / beliefs always have had something to do with it and that He'd prefer us to choose Him. If He is 'not willing that any should perish' how can some be predestined to perish?

'There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.' 1Cor 10:13

More choices here in Cor. We can submit to sin or find the way God provided for escape.

 

[marineimaging]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

I am saved by my acceptance of Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, by my testimony that He is my Lord, by my confession, repentance, and baptism. By the promises of God which will never whither nor fall way. By the confirmation of Jesus on earth, and the Holy Trinity of Father, Son, And Holy Spirit in heaven and on earth. No other deed, no other reason.

 

[TCassidy]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

Neither one. God's foreknowledge of what? Did He look ahead and learn that I would one day be saved? If so He learned something and if there was something He didn't already know He was not Omniscient and if not Omniscient He was not God.

And who says God's election was random? God does not roll dice.

 

[eleos1954]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

All choose Jesus or not, God knows what the choices will be. Foreknowledge

God's random choice/selection - No

If "based" is used in relation to our choice ok, if "based" is used in relation to Gods foreknowledge then no.

God Bless.

 

[mark kennedy]

But that isn't what the words God chose means. Either the word used for foreknew or the word used for predestined should bring us to see that God forecauses. But, neither does. Those words are listed at the bottom.

Where in Scripture did it say that God forecaused satan to fall or forecaused adam to sin? Did God forecause Jesus Christ to die on the cross or did He allow Jesus Christ to die. Even Jesus said that He could have called legions of angels to rescue Him, but Jesus chose "God's will be done" and allowed Himself to be tortured and murdered for a greater purpose. Did God forecause man to "repent the LORD that he had even made man" and plan to destroy man off the face of the earth, only to also forecause Noah to find grace in His sight?

What is clear that God foreknew all these things were going to occur, because if He didn't, there would have been no reason for Jesus Christ to be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

4267 proginosko
Meaning: to know beforehand
Origin: from 4253 and 1097
Usage: foreknew(2), foreknown(1), knowing beforehand(1), known previously(1).

4309 (proorizo)
Meaning: to predetermine, foreordain
Origin: from 4253 and 3724
Usage: predestined(6).

In the greek, the first word means the same as Strongs shares. However, in the greek, the second word actually means: "to decide upon beforehand, predestine"

Its not a foreknowledge that is mutually exclusive with free will. God always knew how we would be saved because its based on his divine attributes, the communicable attributes of God. Salvation is to be born again of imperishable seed 1 Peter 1:23, It is permenantly opposed to sin, Romans 7:22.

God knew before the foundation of the world because he knew how.

 

[Pneuma3]

Not at all. Foreknowledge of what we will do/choose is not the same as choosing for us what we will do.

I wholeheartedly believe that some people who have murdered, used drugs, committed adultery, etc, will be found in the Kingdom of God. By Jesus' definitions, I have been guilty of all three (and probably all 10 of the 10 commandments in my lifetime). God didn't foreordain them (or me) to make those choices to violate His commands; but God knew that by their (our) end here on earth, those individuals (and me) when confronted with a choice to make about Him would, repent and come to Him in spirit and in truth and that we would remain in His love. God looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7), and God can see our end from our beginning or middle.

we are in close agreement here, so will look at where we part in understanding.

I would venture to say there are others who have gotten the same grace and the same opportunities that I have gotten. Some may have chosen to come to Him earlier. Some later. And for some, all the opportunities will never drive them into the Word, never drive them to diligently seek God, never drive them to repent. It may actually have the opposite effect to harden them. But, that won't be God's fault, because somehow He foreordained them to reject Him. He will have known they were going to reject Him in the end, so He didn't choose to foreknow them or foreordain them, and in essence simply allowed them, by their ultimate choice, to be vessels fitted for destruction. God knew what Judas was going to do. He even foretold it; but He didn't make Judas make that choice. satan did and God allowed it. When Peter was sifted like wheat, God didn't make Peter reject Jesus. Jesus simply told Him what was going to happen--that satan was going to sift him and that he would reject Jesus. When Jesus blots a name out of the Book of Life (like discussed in Rev 3:5), He will respond to them "I never knew you" (Matt 7:21-27, Matt 25:12). But, for them to be in the Book of Life, He must have known them at some point. God thinks differently than we do. His thoughts and His ways are much higher than ours and His Word never returns void! (Isa 55)

This is where we part in our understanding, specially the part I highlighted.

According to scripture in the END, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. The reason being is because this is what God has predestined from eternity past, it is all Gods doing, and will surely come to pass.

However like I pointed out with Abe God does NOT know what choice man will make until man has been tried or God searches out the inner part of our heart.

If God knows what choices all men will make from eternity passed why does He test us and why does He have to search our hearts? Surely if God already knew from eternity passed what choice we would make then God would not have to do these things.

 

[Pneuma3]

For the record, I don't question God. I question man's perceptions and interpretations. If God wants to make one vessel for honor and one for destruction, as the Absolute Sovereign, He certainly can do that and without question doesn't need anyone's permission or approval to do so. But, I believe He is long-suffering to endure the one who deserves to be destroyed for the sake of the one who hasn't come to Him yet, but whom God knows will.

Just like God knew you while you were in the womb, God also knew Jacob and Esau. And, just like God wasn't surprised by satan's choice or adam's choice, He wasn't surprised by Jacob or Esau's choices in the end.

try looking at the two vessels another way.
The old man is the vessel fitted to destruction and the new man is the vessel of honor.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

God knows the choices we will make, But We don't know the choices we will make.

There in lies the free will.

/ Thread

 

[Yarddog]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

I have already been saved and surrender to God's Holy Spirit in hopes of salvation. I don't assume what God knows but try to let God's will be done without questioning.

 

[fat wee robin]

I agree! So, when He chose us, do you believe He did it randomly or consistent with His foreknowledge? He also made Jesus Christ the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world meaning that He already knew what was going to happen before the foundation of the world and had already made a way for man to still know Him and the One that He sent (John 17:3).

So, I am asking if you believe that same foreknowledge was applied to the rest of us OR was God's choice of who would be or could be saved based on His completely random selection?

There is a huge misunderstanding in interpreting this quote as the knowledge of so much about time and God's creativity was limited to people who knew very little about either .
All this quote means is that God in a general had a plan to save us from the time of Creation as He knew we are incapable of evolving to perfection by ourselves ,that we would make mistakes , mainly through ignorance ,but later through rebellion, and that at some time, in order that we would not totally destroy ourselves ,and our Community He would have give us a way back to life,At THE APPROPRIATE TIME , to prevent our redescent into hell .
Christians have had false ideas about cosmology ,time ,creation and much more ,and this is another one that we dont' have to do anything to be saved .

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not a Calvinist but I believe this is a false dilemma.

My understanding of the Calvinist position isn't that election is random, but that God keeps his own counsel and that it is a secret or mystery.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am actually surprised how similar traditional Reformed churches are with Lutherans on election. There are some differences in emphasis but generally the European Reformed traditions has emphasized that if you are baptized and you believe, you have reasonable assurance you are among the elect.

It is only in the more American/British Calvinist and Baptist churches that insist that election is so mysterious that we can't make reasonable assumptions based on the ordinary means of grace.

 

[fat wee robin]

Based on the Bible.
God knew me while I was in the womb.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated.

The Book of Romans states that God the potter can raise one up for good and one for bad.

Who are we but, little men to question God?

M-Bob

You assume that the bible as it was written could not be interpreted otherwise ,when humanity had developed a bigger appreciation of Creation ,and God Himself .
This is too simplistic and prevents developement and discussion from educated
people, who want to believe ,but cannot participate in childish assumptions .

 

[Hazelelponi]

However like I pointed out with Abe God does NOT know what choice man will make until man has been tried or God searches out the inner part of our heart.

If God knows what choices all men will make from eternity passed why does He test us and why does He have to search our hearts? Surely if God already knew from eternity passed what choice we would make then God would not have to do these things.

God may know, but we don't.

Would it be just for God to judge us based on something we never did? How about reward us in like manner?

No.. we will stand before God in judgement each man for His own actions, and/or each man His response to Christ.

That is why God allows us to live it out even though He already knows.