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Featured Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
    Based on God's random choice/selection?

    What do you based that on?
     
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  2. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Absolutely nothing works if we do not have free will. WE have many choices that God requires us to make. We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity. Everyone of God's promises for us is a choice because we have to do our part and then we can be sure God will do His part of the covenant.

    God can not have a covenant with someone that does not have choice. He does write every page of the book of our life before we are born. The Angels and the Holy Spirit helps us to follow that book and God's plan for us. Some people choose not to follow God and they use their gifts, talents and abilities to serve themselves or to server the serpent.

    Random really does not exist. Everything in the natural world follows the fibonacci sequence (3 5 8 13) For example sea shells follow this sequence to deal with the forces of gravity. Plants follow this sequence to make best use of the energy from light.
     
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  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Free will = salvation by self-righteousness.
     
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  4. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    I may be saved based on the choices I make. I have chosen to follow Him, but I could have decided not to. This is a decision that everyone must make several times a day, because you cease to follow Him with every sin, only turning back upon repentance.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You save yourself through obedience?
     
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  6. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    You don't save yourself, you only do what leads to salvation.
     
  7. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    I don't believe in randomness as a real thing. It is merely a word that simple humans use to describe things so complex that they become unpredictable and seemingly without cause. I believe that it is an insult to call God random.

    I will be saved because of Christ and my choice to make him my savior.

    I make that choice because it is in my nature to do so. My nature causes my choice; therefore my choice cannot cause my nature, or my reasoning would be circular (it can be self-reinforcing, but not a direct cause).

    It is my nature to do so, because God has made my nature that way. If not for God, my nature would be depraved.

    I believe that God changed my nature because he wanted to.

    I believe that God wanted to change me because that was his nature.

    What caused God's nature? Nothing. God is self-existent. It's not "random." It's just unfathomable.
     
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  8. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

    Ephesians 1:3-6
     
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  9. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree! So, when He chose us, do you believe He did it randomly or consistent with His foreknowledge? He also made Jesus Christ the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world meaning that He already knew what was going to happen before the foundation of the world and had already made a way for man to still know Him and the One that He sent (John 17:3).

    So, I am asking if you believe that same foreknowledge was applied to the rest of us OR was God's choice of who would be or could be saved based on His completely random selection?
     
  10. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So when you said "God made my nature that way" and you said "God changed my nature", do you believe He selected you over others without reason (which I called "random") or do you believe He selected you--to make/change your nature--because of His foreknowledge of you?
     
  11. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for sharing. So how do you deal with the verses that seem to state otherwise, like:

    "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves." Ephesians 1:3-6
     
  12. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, if I understand you correctly, you have said that God randomly chooses by eliminating free will as "salvation by self-righteousness". Is that correct or did I misunderstand you?

    If that is the case, then you must also be saying that the "whosoever believes" in John 3:16 only believes because God decided they would. And those who don't, God decided they wouldn't be able to believe before the foundation of the world. Is that correct?

    Just to make sure I understand correctly, you believe God randomly chose who would be able to be saved--without using His foreknowledge of choices we would make--like He did with making Jesus Christ the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Am I understanding you correctly, Dave?
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whosoever believes is a characteristic of those whom God saves. It does not say whosoever chooses to believe out of the goodness of their heart God will save.
     
  14. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, if I understand you correctly, you believe in the necessity of choice. But, if God writes every page of the book of our life before we are born, how do we truly have choice?

    And how would you respond to the verses Hazelelponi shared, which seem to suggest the opposite of free will:

    "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves." Ephesians 1:3-6
     
  15. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can certainly add and twist the verse, but couldn't someone else do the same thing and say that it also doesn't say: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever He created with the characteristic of belief in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are adding to "whosoever believes" when you say "whosoever chooses to believe".
     
  17. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But again, you are failing to understand that if you can interpret it one way, there is no reason why another can't interpret it another way. Either way is adding to what He says based on the bigger viewpoint a person is coming with. The Word simply says "Whosoever believes." It doesn't say "chooses to", but it also doesn't say "as a passive characteristic that God gave them." That was my only point and not one I want to continue to argue about.
     
  18. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe Gods foreknowledge of an event means that event is predestined to come to pass?

    Did God predestinate the individual of His body or did God predestinate the body?
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whosoever believes is unconditional = salvation by grace. Whosoever chooses to believe is conditional = salvation by works.
     
  20. S.O.J.I.A.

    S.O.J.I.A. Dynamic UNO

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    study your bible and find out.
     
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