Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Alithis]

I disagree. Hebrews, which was written to, well, Hebrews, and the writer, whom I believe to have been Paul, goes out of his way to use a word the Hebrews would understand.

Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as you see the Day approaching.

Look at that word "assembling." It is not the usual Greek word for "assembling" or "church." It is the Greek word επισυναγωγην "episunagogan." It is made up of the preposition "epi" (at) and the common word "sunagogan." It is where we get our English word "synagogue." The place where the Jews would assemble to sing, pray, hear the scriptures, receive instruction and worship. The clear meaning is that we are not to forsake that gathering for singing, praying, hearing the scriptures, receiving instruction and worshiping.

Diesnt really change anything

 

[joshua 1 9]

So now you admit the lost man is in bondage to sin and the saved man is bound to new life in Christ. Good. We are making progress.

A church I attended had almost 200 sermons on the different qualities that make up the mind of Christ. Yes there is a big difference between lost man and the saved man.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If we are in bondage to the law of sin and death how do we first surrender to His will? We are bound. We can't surrender to His will. That is what "bondage" means. You are bound and can't do what you want to do (even though the bible says the lost man doesn't want to surrender to Christ).

You seem to have overlooked the verses that talk about bondage:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

And what does Paul call himself? Romans 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God,

Other translations use the word "Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the gospel of God.

So, the bible says the unsaved person is in bondage to the law of sin and death, and the bible says the saved person is a bondservant, a servant or slave, who is in bondage to the Lord Jesus Christ.

So now you admit the lost man is in bondage to sin and the saved man is bound to new life in Christ. Good. We are making progress.

So Mr. Cassidy, you are talking in circles here. On one hand you say that when we are in bondage to sin, we are unable to surrender to Him--even though you concede the Bible says that we don't want to--which you know violates your stated belief that we can't. Then you say once God does the work, we are in bondage to Him. Yet, if what you said related to the bondage to sin (which is not as strong as God) were to be transferred to the "bondage to Him", then once God does the work, and we are in bondage to Him, we should be UNABLE to sin any more--following your stated logic. Yet, even you wouldn't agree with that. If bondage means 100% unable to do the opposite without God's help, then how do you justify God's "new creation" doing something that God states is contrary to His Word and His Will, because they give into the desires of the flesh on at least one occasion post new birth?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Hi Johnny, no I am not killing Gods omniscience I just have a different and I believe more biblical understanding of it.
Most believe that unless God knows all things from eternity past then God cannot be all knowing.

However as I pointed out with abe being tested and God only after the test saying to Abe NOW I KNOW shows that God did not know from eternity past that Abe would withhold nothing from him. The example you gave (Adam and Eve, Abel and Cain, Noah's time, Babel, etc) are some of the other examples I have used in the past, which also show this.

So as scripture shows Gods all knowing aspect is done via testing and the searching out of the hearts of men does this mean God is not all knowing? NO

What it actually shows is God is all knowing BECAUSE he searches out the inner hearts of man, thus he knows all choices a man will make BEFORE man actually makes the choice, but not before man has set his heart on a choice.

It is not a sin for a bird to land on your head, but it is a sin if you let him build a nest there.






I see us as evolving from an old man into a new man or as scripture says we are a new creature in Christ Jesus.



Yes and it is because He see, via the searching of all mens hearts that He knows who is ready to hear and who is not.



as I do not believe in limited omniscience this does not really concern me.

Thank you for taking the time to share. I still don't understand how you don't consider it "limited omniscience" though. If God doesn't know everything from before time (like He knew Jesus had to be slain before the foundation of the world for a reason, before anyone was created and breathed life into), then it necessarily means He isn't fully omniscience (from eternity), but needs to enter time and place to see things. That means when He saw me in my mother's womb, He knew the plans He had, but not necessarily whether I would fulfill them or not. How is that not limited omniscience?

Yet, all His prophesies come true in detail and I fully believe His predictions about the future will also.

 

[Bobber]

Free will = salvation by self-righteousness.

Free will = salvation by a God who is LOVE

 

[Dave L]

Free will = salvation by a God who is LOVE

Free will turns the gospel of grace into law for the self-righteous to keep in an effort to save themselves. If the will was free, Jesus did not need to save any, they could simply will their own salvation.

 

[Bobber]

Whosoever believes is unconditional = salvation by grace. Whosoever chooses to believe is conditional = salvation by works.

Why not put down what you really believe...go all the way....."whosoever is chosen to believe = salvation by grace" which it's not for it doesn't reflect the gracious character of God. Whosoever chooses to believe is never salvation by works for the Bible never refers to a person merely making a choice as a work. It's always faith as compared to trying to be saved by the works of the law. If choosing to believe was a work of the law then whatever was the meaning that Abraham was justified merely by choosing to believe.

 

[Pneuma3]

Thank you for taking the time to share. I still don't understand how you don't consider it "limited omniscience" though. If God doesn't know everything from before time (like He knew Jesus had to be slain before the foundation of the world for a reason, before anyone was created and breathed life into), then it necessarily means He isn't fully omniscience (from eternity), but needs to enter time and place to see things. That means when He saw me in my mother's womb, He knew the plans He had, but not necessarily whether I would fulfill them or not. How is that not limited omniscience?

Yet, all His prophesies come true in detail and I fully believe His predictions about the future will also.

two things here of note Johnny. what God planned out will absolutely come to pass and man simply cannot stop it. God knew before time began exactly what He was going to do.

where man is concerned God knew before he ever created man that God was going to make humankind in his image and likeness, thus we are assured because God planned this all out it will surely come to pass.

so where is the limited omniscience in that?

Do you somehow think mans free will choices can stop God from doing that which he set out to do? Hardly, God knows the end from the beginning and the reason He knows the end from the beginning is because all comes from him and all returns to him.

However within time God deals with us as I have shown via Abe, testing and searching our hearts so he will know what path we will choose at any given time.

A God with static foreknowledge from eternity past would not even need to enter time and be apart of anything, prayer for anything would mean nothing.

For myself I want to see a God who wants me to see him as a Father, who interacts with me on a daily basis and not be a father who I cannot see or have discourse.

God created man in time and God deals with man in time.


the 2nd thing is which foundation of the world was Jesus slain before?

 

[Dave L]

Why not put down what you really believe...go all the way....."whosoever is chosen to believe = salvation by grace" which it's not for it doesn't reflect the gracious character of God. Whosoever chooses to believe is never salvation by works for the Bible never refers to a person merely making a choice as a work. It's always faith as compared to trying to be saved by the works of the law. If choosing to believe was a work of the law then whatever was the meaning that Abraham was justified merely by choosing to believe.

This is how it works:

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)

 

[Bobber]

Free will turns the gospel of grace into law for the self-righteous to keep in an effort to save themselves.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Acts 2:40

That's not one seeking to be saved by keeping the law but by choosing to put their faith in Jesus. I can't see any other way David but that you'd try to tell the Apostle Peter he was wrong by using the term "Save Yourself!" Admit it the term is offensive to you and yet the Apostle Peter used it and inspired by the Spirit to do so.

If the will was free, Jesus did not need to save any, they could simply will their own salvation.

Really? Don't you have free will to do something you could never achieve? If someone told you or I to bench press 500 Ibs I think I'm save to say neither of us could do it. Does such mean we don't have free will to try? Of course not. Calvinists seek to lock this in to always mean IF YOU HAVE FREE WILL you 'd be able to do whatever! Nonsense. There's no reason to make such a conclusion. Trying to be saved by the keeping of the law would be like lifting 500 ibs. Can't do it. Being saved by simply believing through our choice ISN'T especially with the Holy Spirit encouraging us to believe albeit not making us to do so.

 

[Dave L]

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Acts 2:40

That's not one seeking to be saved by keeping the law but by choosing to put their faith in Jesus. I can't see any other way David but that you'd try to tell the Apostle Peter he was wrong by using the term "Save Yourself!" Admit it the term is offensive to you and yet the Apostle Peter used it and inspired by the Spirit to do so.



Really? Don't you have free will to do something you could never achieve? If someone told you or I to bench press 500 Ibs I think I'm save to say neither of us could do it. Does such mean we don't have free will to try? Of course not. Calvinists seek to lock this in to always mean IF YOU HAVE FREE WILL you 'd be able to do whatever! Nonsense. There's no reason to make such a conclusion. Trying to be saved by the keeping of the law would be like lifting 500 ibs. Can't do it. Being saved by simply believing through our choice ISN'T especially with the Holy Spirit encouraging us to believe albeit not making us to do so.

Judgement was about to fall on that generation. The worst tribulation the world ever saw or would ever see. Peter is warning them about impending doom.

If you have a free will, you don't need Christ to save you. Just save yourself by being good and tweaking your act from time to time.

 

[Bobber]

This is how it works:

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)

It didn't say anything there about being foreordained but merely ordained. When the Apostles ordained elders among certain groups did they find out who was ordained from before the foundation of the world? Or did they rather look at the present circumstances of who were showing strength in their relationships with God? Those who were ordained or directed into eternal life were the ones who were acting positively towards the word being preached in the same verse and the one before. The word "believed" is the last word of Acts13:48 for it reveals the characteristics of those who were ordained. They had chosen to believe.

 

[Dave L]

It didn't say anything there about being foreordained but merely ordained. When the Apostles ordained elders among certain groups did they find out who was ordained from before the foundation of the world? Or did they rather look at the present circumstances of who were showing strength in their relationships with God? Those who were ordained or directed into eternal life were the ones who were acting positively towards the word being preached in the same verse and the one before. The word "believed" is the last word of Acts13:48 for it reveals the characteristics of those who were ordained. They had chosen to believe.

All believers were ordained to believe before the creation of the world. Please note:

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Free will turns the gospel of grace into law for the self-righteous to keep in an effort to save themselves. If the will was free, Jesus did not need to save any, they could simply will their own salvation.

That just isn't true. You are confusing free will with lack of necessary work on the part of God. Man doesn't have the free will to do something for Himself that only God can do. But, God chose to have man choose as a necessary (but not sufficient) requirement. We cannot save ourselves! God saves us; But that doesn't mean He doesn't require us to make a choice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

God sent His Son so the world may be saved because He loved the world. John 3:16. God wants everyone to repent and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Free will = salvation by self-righteousness.

God’s election = God did not love the world, Jesus was not sent so that the world may be saved, God does not want everyone to repent and be saved. (2 Peter 3:9 1 Timothy 2:3-4) God is responsible for all who reject Him, God is responsible for all who will burn in the lake of fire never having a chance for salvation, God is not just,

Free will =salvation by acceptance not self righteousness

 

[Dave L]

That just isn't true. You are confusing free will with lack of necessary work on the part of God. Man doesn't have the free will to do something for Himself that only God can do. But, God chose to have man choose as a necessary (but not sufficient) requirement. We cannot save ourselves! God saves us; But that doesn't mean He doesn't require us to make a choice.

Free will needs something to react to. So people take the announcement "whosoever believes" and turn it into law saying instead "whosoever chooses to believe".

If you hear the gospel and believe it, just like you believe the chair you are sitting in is real, it needs no act of the will.

But here is where many become confused. If you choose to believe, it is because you already believe, or you would not choose to believe. So God already saved them before they chose to believe. Whosoever believes has eternal life.

 

[Bobber]

Judgement was about to fall on that generation. The worst tribulation the world ever saw or would ever see. Peter is warning them about impending doom.

Now that's a real, real, real big stretch! You're talking about the period of 70 AD which wasn't going to take place for another 40 years! Acts 2 was all about receiving salvation in the here and now of their present moment. Thus THE SAME VERSE says they responded and repented. You'll resist this of course for it devastates your Calvinistic thinking BUT to any readers I'd encourage you to look at the text. Do you truly think Peter saying "save yourself" really means something which will won't take place until another whole generation ahead? Not only that those of his audience WERE NOT even from the Jerusalem area necessarily. Read from where they came.

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Acts 2:5-12

If you have a free will, you don't need Christ to save you. Just save yourself by being good and tweaking your act from time to time.

Sorry Dave but please consider you need to tweak your theology. Once can't with free will achieve whatever they want. Doesn't mean they don't have free will. You're wanting to tie FREEDOM with the absolute ability to do anything. Such is nonsense. I can't run a mile in two minutes but my will is free to try.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Free will turns the gospel of grace into law for the self-righteous to keep in an effort to save themselves. If the will was free, Jesus did not need to save any, they could simply will their own salvation.

Free will in no way equates to a lack of or atonement of sin. Everyone who possesses free will is still in need of atonement. Your statements pertaining to free will are extremely obtuse as if you are purposely devising the most obscure situations you can possibly imagine.

 

[Dave L]

God sent His Son so the world may be saved because He loved the world. John 3:16. God wants everyone to repent and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)