Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

Hazelelponi

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Jesus lived His live as an example for us to follow. He went about preaching, teaching and healing the sick. That is what we are to do. Only we reach a point like in the video where we get to the end of preaching/teaching and we begin to prepare the next generation to get out and serve God and preach the gospel to all nations and all people. We can confirm that what they hear is God speaking to them and they are doing what He is calling them to do. I have been to the ends of the world. I found an ATM machine there and I put my card in and it gave me money. So I know that God does provide for us and what we need.

I'm sorry that what you found at the end of the world was only an ATM..

I'm not sure what you want me to say.

Young men need the Spirit of God on them, not other men's ideas, but rather, God's.
 
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Pneuma3

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God may know, but we don't.

Would it be just for God to judge us based on something we never did? How about reward us in like manner?

No.. we will stand before God in judgement each man for His own actions, and/or each man His response to Christ.

That is why God allows us to live it out even though He already knows.

yet scripture tells us God tests us so that HE WILL KNOW, as I referred to in Abe's case. Plus as I pointed out if God already know why does He need to search out our inner most heart?
 
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Pneuma3

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I think it is possible that God does not know ALL the choices we will make ,but He knows that we are in closed system from which we cannot escape .A system He created to 'evolve' us ,after He created us .If we are to be fully creatures of God we must develop through many expériences to become Sons and Daughters in full .
we are close here.
 
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Pneuma3

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"For those He foreknew" and "


First, I am sorry to hear you are in pain. May God touch and heal what is causing you pain, In Jesus' mighty Name.

Second, the "chicken or egg" question is answered by God. And, so is this question. Yet, so many live in an idea that God produced a multitude of creatures (spirits and human) merely for the purpose of torturing them. I don't believe that.

It would make no sense for God to say that He desires "all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4) through Paul or that He is longsuffering because He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance" (2 Pet 3:9) through Peter if He had chosen/predetermined before the beginning of time that a multitude of people would be unable to repent and be saved or that a third of the angels would be unable to avoid making the choice to follow satan and thus be forever tortured.

I do think that is a big problem for those who think the destiny of everyone was already predetermined, before they ever had a chance to make a choice. I think it was pre-known that they would choose against Him; but not because He foreordained them to do so.

Some will cite Romans 9. But, Paul also wrote Romans 11 and Romans 8.

If we are 100% depraved, how does Noah find grace in God's sight and not be destroyed like the rest? When God throws Job in satan's face, it was before Job really knew God (according to Job's response later to God) "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6); but God was holding Job up as a "perfect and upright man, one who fears God, and eschews evil" when He said to satan: "Have you considered my servant job...."

there is no problem for those of us who believe in the salvation of all
 
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Pneuma3

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Isaiah (45:7) says: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." This goes back to the Serpent and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Something I am still trying to understand.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light , and create darkness : I make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these [things].




Bara\create at its heart is a word of separation or division; it is used in the fashion of shaping things by cutting. We read how God created the heavens and the earth and if you look at the creation process it is shaped via separation/division.

God separates the day from the night, the waters from the waters, etc even with the creation of humankind we see God separated the woman out of the man.

King David said bara/create in me a clean heart.

Now we know that this is in relation to circumcision, the separation or cutting out of the foreskin.

So then that scripture should actually read like this.

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Light does indeed cut down darkness and peace does indeed cut down evil, for blessed are the peacemakers....

God is NOT the author of evil for God is love and love thinketh no evil and love worketh no evil.

So if God does not work or even think evil how is it God created evil?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

The way I see it from scripture. Is that we certainly have a choice, in both of our actions good and bad. The bible tells us that we can be hardened by sin. When we choose sin over righteousness our hearts become slowly blinded. It is almost like God gives each person a measure of faith, and ability to know what is right. If we squander it on choosing sin, over God's will, our faith tank slowly empties, and we can become blind to the truth. Faith in the sacrifice of Christ alone is what saves us, but sin can separate us from the knowledge of that sacrifice.

2Th 2:10-12 Lost people will be fooled by his evil deeds. They could be saved, but they will refuse to love the truth and accept it. So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie. All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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You assume that the bible as it was written could not be interpreted otherwise ,when humanity had developed a bigger appreciation of Creation ,and God Himself .
This is too simplistic and prevents developement and discussion from educated
people, who want to believe ,but cannot participate in childish assumptions .

We of this house and the ones in our church which we attended today believe in the Bible as written. God has kept it intact.
M-Bob
 
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ADisciple

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This question is one that been used by atheists and others to try and prove that God can not exist, because how can such a loving God predestine some people to a wonderful eternal life in Heaven and predestine others to forever punishment in Hell.

The question needs to be asked in simple words:
Did (and does) God pick and choose which person will be save and which will be destroyed ... all before the Earth was even created?

This is just MY answer and opinion.
If you believe with all your heart, all your mind, all your body, and all your soul that God exists, that the Holy Spirit exists, and that not only does our Savior Jesus Christ exists, but that he also lived as a human, and was the ultimate sacrifice for all the world (past present and future), and was resurrected to defeat death (ie, the Gospel) ... then why ask the question in the first place?

You are to work out your own salvation. That means that it is all between you and God.
While you are to go out and declare the Gospel to the world and to help new believers to learn and be more fully rooted in the vine (ie, Jesus) so they too can spread the Gospel ... you are not to worry about another's salvation (there's a better way to express that, but I'm not finding the words, so please just roll with that).

If you believe in God ... leave it to Him.

It doesn't matter if we humans figure out this topic or not. It doesn't change what is the facts:
- God exists.
- He choose us before we existed.
- Humans were created to worship God.
- And we won't fully understand the "why" until we are in His presence and can ask and learn.
Why beat our heads over something no human can definitely answer? This is how division within the Church occurs.

If you believe in God ... get down on your knees and with all your heart, mind, body, and soul praise the One who gives you everlasting life with Him!
 
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joshua 1 9

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So if God does not work or even think evil how is it God created evil?
In the passage we are talking about, God allows us to suffer the consequences for our sin. If we go back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil it is difficult to understand why evil exists in the first place. Although the usual answer people have is because God wants to test us.

God is a God of absolute Justice. Yet He is able to cause all things to work together for good. Because His Grace is so amazingly powerful.
 
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Alithis

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Free will = salvation by self-righteousness.
rubbish.
free will does not make the oppurtunity to be saved available.
but now that its been made available (though we were dead in sin and none of us born when the Lord Jesus obeyed the father and did what was required to make it available )we are clearly given precise instructions on HOW to enter in to what has been graciously made available.how to abide there in hiw to walk in it and live in it and endure in it until the end.

to ignore Gods instructions is to remain in rebellion and an enemy of God.
 
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Alithis

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Before christ we had free will to choose to be more or less kind -and die and be judged
or evil and unkind -and die and be judged.

we were without hope in the world.

"free will", had no "other option" to choose.
Bst now the lord jesus has come and through no effort of ours has made a door to a narrow path of salvation available (thats extremly gracious of God to do that for us ,for by grace are you saved- But ONLY if you enter into that WAY he has made available (which excludes church membership or adherance,he never lists that in his directive instructive commands.) which is done as per GODS instructions.
to obey Jesus,
repent
be baptised
recieve the holy spirit and walk in increasing holiness having been freed from the power of sin .

sin is disobeying God
salvation brings us back to an obedient state.
to even slightly insinuate that Obedience plays no part in salvation and the new Covenant (a Covenant always has agreed condition of action undertaken by TWO parties never One.) is to lead people astray with the same subtle deception as the Serpant in the garden .
 
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FatalHeart

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Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

I don't think God looked into the future and was like, "This one is will do such and such." But the Bible says,

"It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

And it definitely doesn't sound like God was playing dice. I think He specifically made certain people to live and certain people to die, and that the scripture is very correct in pointing out that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
 
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Alithis

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I don't think God looked into the future and was like, "This one is will do such and such." But the Bible says,

"It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

And it definitely doesn't sound like God was playing dice. I think He specifically made certain people to live and certain people to die, and that the scripture is very correct in pointing out that we should "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
of course i can not definitivly say this, but i believe there is a misconception/misunderstanding
for God is just and merciful both.Always.

in pharoahs case it is of interest to me that God said i will harden pharoahs heart...
how is that Just OR merciful?
it was a question that perplexed me untill i saw his justice AND his mercy in it.
the answer (i believe) lays in HOW God hardend pharoahs heart.
he did by giving pharoah repeated oppurtunities to obey repeated amazing signs repeteaded oppurtunities to repent.
that- is how pharoahs heart grew so hard that he insanly persued israel into the red sea on the crossing to the land of midian in Arabia.And perished.
 
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HatGuy

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Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?
Neither. I'm saved by Christ, his death and resurrection.

knowing that gives me assurance
 
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Pneuma3

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In the passage we are talking about, God allows us to suffer the consequences for our sin. If we go back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil it is difficult to understand why evil exists in the first place. Although the usual answer people have is because God wants to test us.

God is a God of absolute Justice. Yet He is able to cause all things to work together for good. Because His Grace is so amazingly powerful.

nothing is said of suffer the consequences of sin in those scriptures. and if we go back to the tree of knowledge of good and evil I believe is in relation to the law, it even start out the same way. Thou shalt not eat...

we agree on you last comment
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?
Jesus prayed for Peter and that was the reason he repented after falling away. It was neither based on God's foreknowledge nor God's random selection but based on someone praying for Peter.

Jesus talked about what happens in different people when they hear the Gospel. None of the choices was because of what God did at all. For some, the enemy takes away the seed right away. For some, they hear and rejoice, are saved, and start to grow. But the cares and pleasures of this life choke out the Word of God in them and they fall away and are lost. For some, they hear the Word and believe and rejoice for a while in their salvation, but the troubles of this life choke out the Word and they fall away and are lost.

This is how Jesus explained what happens regarding the Word of God, the Gospel, and how different people respond and what happens. (There is the good earth but we all know about that one and it is not controversal except there was something in the earth that made a difference, not the choices God makes.)
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Whosoever believes is unconditional = salvation by grace. Whosoever chooses to believe is conditional = salvation by works.
If all a person decides to do is find a theology that promises Heaven (salvation) no matter what they do to other people and requires no loving GOd or their fellow man, this is it. Whether God agrees that getting people into Heaven was the whole goal or not is another matter.

CS Lewis wrote that focusing on salvation or escape from Hell cannot but eventually corrupt the whole faith and that is true. The faith becomes one of me and my salvation and that is it. A narcisstic faith that cares only for the self and that self going to a place of ease and comfort....no loving God or man required. That is an optional extra if one feels like it, I guess.
 
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Alithis

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Whosoever believes is unconditional = salvation by grace. Whosoever chooses to believe is conditional = salvation by works.
Believe is a verb integral with what you do
Just as faith is an action you take .
 
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