Reason to believe

[Upisoft]

These are very deep questions, and I'm not sure we're really given solid answers. In general, studying deomonology has been known to have drastically negative effects! Small doses is the way to go ...

Well, if I'm going to hell it is better to know as much as I can. And if I'm going to believe, it will not happen fast and without reason, just because I think it is a nice idea.

I have heard it taught that satan fell in the 5th creative day. Not sure that's correct, but what we do know is he was here already when mankind was put in the garden via Adam and Eve.

I respect your decision to believe in things you are not sure about. I only want the same respect for my decision to believe in things I'm sure about. God, Satan, Adam and Eve were all in the Garden of Eden, that's what the Bible says. I believe that the Bible says it. Do I believe in the Bible? No, I don't and that's the point of this thread.

He is still here, to be trampled under our feet. To the Glory of G-d. Seriously, if you're looking for meaning to life and all that, look no further, but do understand this one concept REALLY well! And antz referred to Revelation 12, which speaks to this. (Which is not to say it doesn't also have some future relevance)

So the question of why satan fell, and that there is no redemption for him, I hold to be somber warnings for us ... he was no more perfect than the other 2 archangels, but he was overcome with pride.

I have meaning in my life. I'm not doing this out of desperation.

Do you say that archangels were not perfect? And what it means "more perfect"? If something is perfect it can't be made "more perfect".

So the question is if Satan was tempted to sin and who was the tempter? Or did Satan created sin? Or sin was created by inanimate and unintelligent force (pride, or what you want to call it).

One last question: Can God sin if He's omnipotent?

God cannot sin by definition, as what He do is by His will and His will is the law. Simple and logical.

Ok blind post, risking to repeat things said here already. My ultimate prove of the existence of The God of The Bible would be this. The prophecies. About 25% of The Bible is prophetic, most have come true, only the ones regarding end times are still forming upto fulfillment.

You can say the same thing about Nostradamus. You will not be able to convince me he was a prophet either. The problem with prophecies is that people can make them happen, if the prophecies are comprehensible enough. If they are not, you can pick any events that vaguely resemble them. The fact is that the end of the world was predicted many times and said that the Bible say so. The world is still here.

Other evidences include, hygienic laws, food laws, the dimensions of Noah's arc, the curcimcision laws(which has to be done on the 8th day no matter what, which just so happens to be the perfect day for wounds to heal as the blood cloths extremely fast on that day, and the fact that it completely prevents peniscancer), Archeological evidence, Miracles that are still happening today in His Holy Name, unseen knowledge of the waters of Earth for that time(oceanic currents, mountains of the depths of the sea, the forming of rain), the fact The Bible states the earth is round and floats in space, intimate knowledge of Orions belt and Pleiades, the amounth of stars long thought by science to be about a thousand, The Bible has always says innumerous amounts of stars, etc. So yeah plenty of evidence that supports The God of The Bible.

I see nothing mystical in the fact that people write down the common knowledge, so it can be preserved for the future generations. For other things I'll need evidence. Especially about Noah's arc.

 

[andreha]

As to the OP's request

You could do what I did many years ago - pray to God and ask Him to strengthen your faith.

 

[Mess]

You can say the same thing about Nostradamus. You will not be able to convince me he was a prophet either. The problem with prophecies is that people can make them happen, if the prophecies are comprehensible enough. If they are not, you can pick any events that vaguely resemble them. The fact is that the end of the world was predicted many times and said that the Bible say so. The world is still here.


I see nothing mystical in the fact that people write down the common knowledge, so it can be preserved for the future generations. For other things I'll need evidence. Especially about Noah's arc.

Ok just to dive into these two points. Ok you say you can easily let these prophecies happen, and yes some you might be able to, but let's just look at these for example. Just going to name a view, you decide what you think of them. No one will force you to believe them, I can only advise it.
Ok a few simple prophecies about Jesus:
Born in Bethlehem(Micah 5:2) written 720years before it happened
Jesus betrayed for 30silver coins(Zachariah 11:12-13) this would be pretty hard to make sure it happened, since the people that payed the silver coins didn't acknowledge his divine status, written 520 years before it happened.
The throwing of these coins into the Temple(Zachariah 11:13) 520BC
Money for pottery(Zachariah 11:13) 520BC
The piercing of the feet and hands of the Messiah(Psalm 22) a prophecy written 800years before crucifixion was instated as a punishment
Born from a virgin(Isaiah 7:14) written 730years before Christ
Children massacre after His birth, because of His birth(Jeremiah 31:15) Again instated by someone other than Jesus so impossible for Him or his entourage to control, written 600years before Christ
Fled to Egypt(Hosea11:1) written 730years before His birth.
John in the desert preparing the way for the Messiah(Isaiah 40:3) written 710 years before Christ. Interestingly John wasn't even sure Jesus was who He is.
Someone to prepare the way for Jesus (Malachi 3:1) written 430 years BC
Rode a donkey into Jerusalem(Zachariah 9:9) written 520BC
Cast away(Psalm 118:22) 1000years BC
Spat on, and beaten(Isaiah 50:6) 710BC
Giving Him Vinegar to drink on the Cross(Psalm 69:21) 1000BC
Exact year of His death(Daniel 9:25,26) 550BC
Gambling for His clothes(Psalm 22:18) 1000BC
Legs didn't get broken, which was custom for crucifixion(Numeri 9:12) 1440BC
Pierced(isaiah 53:5-9) 710BC
Burried with the Rich(Isaiah 53:9) 710 BC

And these are just a few of the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies about the Life of Christ Jesus. All written long before His birth. But let's look at a few other prophecies while we are on this subject. This time we'll look at Prophecies regarding the Jewish people.

Scattered over all the gentile nations(Deuteronomy 28:64-66) 1400BC
Persecutions off the Jews among the gentile nations(Jermiah 24:9-10) 600BC
An object of ridicule among the people(Deuteronomy 28:37) 1400BC
Having to go an extremely long time without a king, or a temple(Hosea3:4,5) 730BC
The barren state of Israel before the return of the Jews(Isaiah 6:11-13) 730BC interestingly people have tried to live in Israel for two thousand years, but failed to make something of it till the return of the Jews, more Prophecies speak on this.
The return of the Jews (Isaiah 11:11-12) 730BC Normally a group of people have 200 maybe 300 years before they go up in a different group of people, yet the Jews still exist as an independent group of people today, and are returning to Israel thousands at a time.
The rebirth of the Nation of Israel in a day(Isaiah 66:8) 700BC, unprecedented in world History yet the nation of Israel was born in one day, to survive thanks to a miracle when they were attacked the next day.
Keeping faith in God(Zachariah 10:9-10) 520BC again, it is nearly impossible to keep your religion and identity for two thousand years of persecutions, yet the Jews still have their religion and identity.
There are more, but this should be enough.

Daniel 11 accurately describes events regarding Persian kings(including Darius and Xerxes), Alexander the Great(his conquering and the dividing of his empire), Egyptian Pharao's, Syrian Kings, and an indepth prophecy regarding the battles they fought. Interestingly a few hundred years before it happened. Such indepth prophecies can only come from God. We could also discuss the prophecies that are being fulfilled in these days.

Ok now regarding the writing up off knowledge for later generations. You would be right, would it not be for the fact that the knowledge they had was knowledge we could only find through modern science. Think about it, how would they have known of Mountains on the bottom of the seas, or oceanic currents, or an intimate knowledge of parasites in foods, or the fact that some animals purify water? Or how should they have known the amount of stars when back then all scientists(and there were some great scientists) agreed that there were a few thousand stars, and only 9000can be seen. How could they know about the forming of rain? All those old testament rules, are so perfect that we can only improve them with modern technologies. And just think about it, if you were able to get that knowledge without God, every nation would have them. Again the Egyptians for example were brilliant people, yet only the Jews had such knowledge. For example the use of blood in ancient cultures was rampant, only the Jews had the knowledge not to use it. Or the blood clothing, it is interesting to see how that perfectly falls on the 8th day, as the law suggests, again such intimate knowledge can only come from God, or modern science. Only one source was available at that time(the blood clothing is due to a high level of usable pro-trombine). If you don't see that I'm sorry but then you are in serious denial.
As for Noah's ark, the perfect dimensions of an unpropelled ship are 6:1 exactly the dimensions of the Ark. And interestingly there are 300flood stories in the world, the only plausible one is the Biblical one. And the only seaworthy vessel is the Biblical one. But ok, the choice is yours, feel free to choose what you want.

 

[oi_antz]

Still thinking of you after a few quieter days, one thing we haven't mentioned yet about your inability to regard the Bible as God's word, quite often this can be caused by a disagreement with what it says. For instance, many people instantly get turned off when they read the verses concerning homosexuality, essentially because it doesn't tell them that this world is all for their taking and if we want to follow God perfectly we have to be prepared to listen to Him. I think if this is something like what you are experiencing there wouldn't be much confusion about it, you'd be quite sure about the exact verses you disagree with, so anyway it's a thought for you to consider because I know from experience my heart became quite hard to God because of it. Also, I agree with Ray to some extent, but I also agree with you. You can learn about the spirit world that God has created if you choose to, but be sure not to let anything convince you that you should worship an angel, because it is very clear that those who are loyal to God will never allow you to do that, we must always worship God Himself, and if you ever find yourself sympathizing with a fallen angel, you're effectively agreeing that the angel was right and God was wrong, that won't be very beneficial.

 

[Upisoft]

Prophecy for Mess: I'll finish my next post with "Hello".

As to the OP's request

You could do what I did many years ago - pray to God and ask Him to strengthen your faith.

Will you consider praying to Ra asking him to strengthen your belief? If not, you know exactly why I can't do what you are asking from me.

Still thinking of you after a few quieter days, one thing we haven't mentioned yet about your inability to regard the Bible as God's word, quite often this can be caused by a disagreement with what it says.

To regard the Bible as God's word I must believe that God exists and the Bible is written by Him. And to believe I need a reason. Otherwise the Bible is like any other book. I may agree, disagree or remain neutral to any part of any book. It is actually very hard to find a book that I agree completely with everything said in it. Even if I myself write a book now I may disagree with parts of it later.

and if you ever find yourself sympathizing with a fallen angel, you're effectively agreeing that the angel was right and God was wrong, that won't be very beneficial.

It wouldn't be beneficial to you to not love your enemy or not praying for him either. (Matthew 5:44)

In short sympathizing and loving does not necessary mean "agreement".

 

[Mess]

Totally ridiculous point, and completely besides the point. I pointed out fulfilled prophecies that were completely uncontrollable to be fulfilled by anyone except for God, and you come up with that? How about this, you come back when you have an open mind.

 

[Upisoft]

Born in Bethlehem(Micah 5:2) written 720years before it happened

This and most of following "prophecies" are self fulfilling prophecies.
Example:
Person "A wrote that "X" will happen. Person "B", living 100 years after a event "Y" believes in what person "A" said. "B" wants to write about event "Y", but he does not know everything about the event. So, he consults what person "A" wrote and as he believes it is the Truth he decides that the event "Y" was actually the event "X". Result: self-fulfilling "prophecy".

It's the simplest method actually and it disregards there is a society. More probable is that person "B" will hear a rumor about it, because it is easy that someone will assume that "X" happened. Not all people study history and keep records for 100 years, but the Old Testament was quite widespread.

Daniel 11 accurately describes events

My history book also accurately describes some events happened in the past. There is no evidence the book of Daniel wasn't written or changed after the events.

how would they have known of Mountains on the bottom of the seas

Legend of Atlantis? It does not need to be true, you need to have imagination.

or oceanic currents

Yeah, right. Where is the chapter on oceanology?

As for Noah's ark, the perfect dimensions of an unpropelled ship are 6:1 exactly the dimensions of the Ark. And interestingly there are 300flood stories in the world, the only plausible one is the Biblical one.

They did make ships and boats in the past, right? They had experience. If such thing as "perfect dimensions" exists they could know it easily. I find every flood story "plausible" as floods happen very often. For people living in a small area, big flood could look like "whole Earth covered in water".

Hello

 

[Upisoft]

Totally ridiculous point, and completely besides the point. I pointed out fulfilled prophecies that were completely uncontrollable to be fulfilled by anyone except for God, and you come up with that? How about this, you come back when you have an open mind.

No, you pointed out "prophecies" you believe to be fulfilled. There are so many ways to make a prophecy and then fulfill it. If "open mind" means "blindly believe" then it will not happen.

 

[Mcygee]

I don't think it does take blind faith.

What other explanation is there for us other than a divine creator? I have not yet found one. Also there are very few religions you have to research to decide what is legitimate and what is not. Just throw out the ones that worship things we know to be simply parts of our physical universe (planets, animals, etc.) Throw out the ones that were created recently for obvious reasons. Throw out ones that were created by the testimony of one individual. Throw out the ones that history and their own teachings show us was used to benefit a specific individual or small group. I'm sure there are other obvious reasons you could quickly disregard a religion.

You don't have a lot left after that. If any that I'm aware of, though I'm still in my own process of studying.

The only other option you have is belief that God wanted no interaction with us at all. That he just lets us do whatever as he watches. I don't see how you could believe this, but if you did there isn't much anybody could do to prove it since it's hard to prove no interaction.

One thing I know for sure is God exists, that part is obvious except to those who choose to ignore it. Not trying to sound stuck up. Not at all, it is just how I feel. The evidence is so obvious to me that I just don't see any other reason people would ignore it other than maybe not knowing the facts.

 

[oi_antz]

To regard the Bible as God's word I must believe that God exists and the Bible is written by Him. And to believe I need a reason. Otherwise the Bible is like any other book. I may agree, disagree or remain neutral to any part of any book. It is actually very hard to find a book that I agree completely with everything said in it. Even if I myself write a book now I may disagree with parts of it later.

Well it's good progress to identify that you don't agree with it. You just admitted the same thing we all know, that humans are fickle, their beliefs change constantly. So if there's any person at all who can be used as a reliable constant, would you presume that to be yourself or God?

It wouldn't be beneficial to you to not love your enemy or not praying for him either. (Matthew 5:44)

In short sympathizing and loving does not necessary mean "agreement".

I think it does actually, I agree it is noble to love and pray for your enemies, but not to sympathize with them. To sympathize means to condone their thoughts, which if contradicting God's will for humanity, would make you an enemy of God.

Sympathy | Define Sympathy at Dictionary.com

–noun
1.
harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons or on the part of one person with respect to another.
2.
the harmony of feeling naturally existing between persons of like tastes or opinion or of congenial dispositions.
3.
the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another, esp. in sorrow or trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.
4.
sympathies,
a.
feelings or impulses of compassion.
b.
feelings of favor, support, or loyalty: It's hard to tell where your sympathies lie.
5.
favorable or approving accord; favor or approval: He viewed the plan with sympathy and publicly backed it.
6.
agreement, consonance, or accord.

Remember that enemies of God can express emotions of hurt and hate. I'm not really sure it is good to sympathize with those feelings.

 

[Upisoft]

Well it's good progress to identify that you don't agree with it. You just admitted the same thing we all know, that humans are fickle, their beliefs change constantly. So if there's any person at all who can be used as a reliable constant, would you presume that to be yourself or God?

If God exists then God is better option. If God does not exist then I'm better option. The logically it is inconclusive.

I think it does actually, I agree it is noble to love and pray for your enemies, but not to sympathize with them. To sympathize means to condone their thoughts, which if contradicting God's will for humanity, would make you an enemy of God.

Sympathy | Define Sympathy at Dictionary.com

–noun
1.
harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons or on the part of one person with respect to another.
2.
the harmony of feeling naturally existing between persons of like tastes or opinion or of congenial dispositions.
3.
the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another, esp. in sorrow or trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.
4.
sympathies,
a.
feelings or impulses of compassion.
b.
feelings of favor, support, or loyalty: It's hard to tell where your sympathies lie.
5.
favorable or approving accord; favor or approval: He viewed the plan with sympathy and publicly backed it.
6.
agreement, consonance, or accord.

Remember that enemies of God can express emotions of hurt and hate. I'm not really sure it is good to sympathize with those feelings.

The sixth meaning proves your point. If that's the way I have to read the Bible, It wouldn't be sincere. Also if what you say is true, then you must not sympathize with anyone. Remember, they can be enemies of God hidden behind the mask of "faith".

Anyway, I still don't have answer to my question about the origin of sin. Who is responsible of its existence? Who created sin? The question is no longer about Satan. It is about probably greater source of evil who was able to tempt and corrupt the perfect being Satan was.

 

[oi_antz]

If God exists then God is better option. If God does not exist then I'm better option. The logically it is inconclusive.

It is absolutely conclusive when you meet God, but while you're sitting on the fence you're not inviting Him are you?

The sixth meaning proves your point. If that's the way I have to read the Bible, It wouldn't be sincere. Also if what you say is true, then you must not sympathize with anyone. Remember, they can be enemies of God hidden behind the mask of "faith".

You will know them by their fruits. Sadly the evil ones have no righteousness in them, it is not good to sympathize with evil, it can tend to rub off on us.

Anyway, I still don't have answer to my question about the origin of sin. Who is responsible of its existence? Who created sin? The question is no longer about Satan. It is about probably greater source of evil who was able to tempt and corrupt the perfect being Satan was.

If you think there is more to it than what God says, you're making up ideas that aren't consistent with God's truth, and you should already know where that comes from since Jesus has told us.

Didn't you read anything about his pride and coveting of God's throne? Pride is the self tempting it's self by greed. These qualities in themselves don't constitute sin, it is the acting of them and thereby imposing disrespect on another that is the sin.

Pride and greed without action are merely points of weakness, which through perseverance can be overcome to make us stronger in righteousness. It's perhaps tempting to think being Christian is the end of all your temptations, whereas it is only the beginning of a strive to live up to God's expectations, and while the Holy Spirit can empower us to give up our sins, we must make the conscious decision to deny the desires of the flesh in favor of Christ-likeness, and to maintain this daily.

 

[Upisoft]

It is absolutely conclusive when you meet God, but while you're sitting on the fence you're not inviting Him are you?

Actually I tried to invite Him yesterday. I was reading the Bible and I wanted an explanation and understanding of Genesis 1:16. No answer.

If you think there is more to it than what God says, you're making up ideas that aren't consistent with God's truth, and you should already know where that comes from since Jesus has told us.

Yes I think, shouldn't I? Since I can't find any explanation how happened that Satan(perfect being) was able to sin, but we(imperfect beings) will not be able to do so. Ih8s8n said "There is no temptation without a tempter" as an explanation why Satan was not offered what we were offered. Then the logical question was to ask how Satan was able to sin without a tempter, or who was Satan's tempter.

Didn't you read anything about his pride and coveting of God's throne? Pride is the self tempting it's self by greed. These qualities in themselves don't constitute sin, it is the acting of them and thereby imposing disrespect on another that is the sin.

So, you believe that Satan was tempted by his pride. Question, what is the source(origin) of Satan pride? If God created his pride, the God is the original tempter, if Satan created his own pride, then God didn't create everything.

Or maybe you believe that some things can be created from nothing, so pride was created by nothing and then pride (inanimate thing) created temptation and sin as a consequence. So, God created everything good, but everithing else came into existence by itself (big bang?).

I don't see how any of these possibilities is supported by the Bible.

Pride and greed without action are merely points of weakness,

Perfect being will have no weakness at all. Or maybe it will have perfect everything, including perfect weakness, perfect evil, perfect ability to tempt.

which through perseverance can be overcome to make us stronger in righteousness.

Perfect being should not be able to be more stronger than it is already. Are you comparing yourself with Satan?

It's perhaps tempting to think being Christian is the end of all your temptations, whereas it is only the beginning of a strive to live up to God's expectations, and while the Holy Spirit can empower us to give up our sins, we must make the conscious decision to deny the desires of the flesh in favor of Christ-likeness, and to maintain this daily.

So, your future existence will be constant mental torture trying to overcome all the temptations all the time for ever and ever. While mine will be constant physical torture in the flames of hell. And as you are not perfect, how long you think will be able to delay your arrival in hell?

 

[Mcygee]

So, your future existence will be constant mental torture trying to overcome all the temptations all the time for ever and ever. While mine will be constant physical torture in the flames of hell. And as you are not perfect, how long you think will be able to delay your arrival in hell?

When you have a true relationship with God temptations are not near what they are without one. Despite being a christian all my life I was sucked into the world of pornography from the age of about 8 years old. It was a constant battle most of my life. It wasn't until recently (about 2 months ago) I decided enough was enough and I needed to get right with God and have an acctual relationship with him. I always believed in him but did not have an acctual relationship with him where I prayed every day. I had tried to buck the habit on my own many times, and always failed miserably. I had no chance on my own.

But now I'm praying every day. Keeping God in my mind in all that I do (or try to). I thank him for what he has given me. I ask for forgiveness for my weakness and tell him that I am nothing without him and need him to resist my temptations.

When I started doing this a very interesting thing happened. For the first about two weeks it was WORSE than it used to be. I had all sorts of lustfull thoughts that I could not get out of my head. Worse thoughts that lusting simply after porn. It was quite miserable trying to combat it. But I said I'm not doing this cycle anymore. I continued to pray and I told God that I was struggling and that I felt under attack. I told him that I trust that he will deliver me if I fight through this. I believed that I was struggling so because I had to prove my dedication and prove I was willing to fight to be right with God. I trusted that after a time of testing that God would release me from these attacks on my thoughts. I also felt this sin had to be worked out of me because I had let it seep into me so deep for so long I did not expect to just lose all temptations over night. However, I didn't expect the great increase of which the attacks came.

Then one day, almost out of the blue, my temptation was almost completely gone. I make sure that I do not let my mind wander into areas that it should not (even thought before I was unable to do this successfully) and I pray and thank God for delivering me from my weakness. Ever since then even the thought of porn disgusts me. As if God has given his disgust for these things to me. So that I hate what he hates. It was an amazing experience.

There was a time I was worried I would have to fight my temptations like I did forever. But I continued to trust that God would release me from them if I continued to be faithful and fight through it. Of couse, he did. Far faster than I expecter or deserved. I'm very greatfull for this and I made sure he knew it.

So no you do not have to fight temptations your whole life. If you have a REAL relationship with God and try to do all that he wants you to and all that is holy, then he will give you the power to hate sin as he hates sin.

Also about the hell part. We all sin even when we have a relationship with God. It is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus that saves us, and not the battle within ourselves. I do believe we are rewarded for the things we do here on earth, but you can't save yourself from hell by sinning less or more. Though honestly nobody knows exactly what will and won't send you to hell. But if you truely love God and want him in your life, it only makes sense you'll fight every sin you can.

Sorry for the lengthy ramble.

 

[Upisoft]

Also about the hell part. We all sin even when we have a relationship with God. It is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus that saves us, and not the battle within ourselves. I do believe we are rewarded for the things we do here on earth, but you can't save yourself from hell by sinning less or more. Though honestly nobody knows exactly what will and won't send you to hell. But if you truely love God and want him in your life, it only makes sense you'll fight every sin you can.

So, you believe that you will go to heaven (or whatever place it will be that is not hell) and you will continue to sin, maybe less and you will fight every sinful action, but still you will sin. And you will not be cast out of that place. Really?

P.S.: Sorry for not commenting on your personal experiences, but I've read what you said. My problems currently are not with this life. I have problems with what you call afterlife and what it will be.

 

[Mcygee]

No, I'm sorry I didn't mean you will sin in heaven. We sin because we are weak. That's just human nature. We are sinful people. When you go to heaven you are given a new body. You won't sin because you won't be tempted to sin. There will be no sin in heaven.

I meant that no matter what we all sin to some extent. Which is why God sent his son to die for our sins. Because he knew that, all along. In the old testament God shows us through his works that we are a "stiff-necked" people. Quick to turn away from his commandments. Therefore, because he loves us so, he had to make atonement for our sins. The system is not a fair one, for God. Even though we are allowed to sin, we still get to go to heaven. Which is one thing I think sets Christianity apart from other religions. Salvation is not in our hands. It is in the hands of God. He has given us salvation. All we have to do is accept it. If you ask me, that makes a lot of sense. God is in charge, not us.

Also, are you at a point where you believe in God but not sure which religion is the right one? Or are you not sure of God's existence at all?

 

[Upisoft]

No, I'm sorry I didn't mean you will sin in heaven. We sin because we are weak. That's just human nature. We are sinful people. When you go to heaven you are given a new body. You won't sin because you won't be tempted to sin. There will be no sin in heaven.

Now we are going in circles. Who tempted Satan to sin then? Before Satan's fall everything was perfect or I'm told so. If you can't have sin without a tempter/temptation who was the original tempter? I've got an answer that Satan tempted himself. Well, even if that is true, then why we will not be able to tempt ourselves? Perfect being did it, why we wouldn't?

Also, are you at a point where you believe in God but not sure which religion is the right one? Or are you not sure of God's existence at all?

I'm in a point where I believe that ether God exists or He does not exists, but I probably will never know. I'm not sure that God exists and I'm trying to find a reason why people believe(or not believe).

 

[oi_antz]

Actually I tried to invite Him yesterday. I was reading the Bible and I wanted an explanation and understanding of Genesis 1:16. No answer.


Yes I think, shouldn't I? Since I can't find any explanation how happened that Satan(perfect being) was able to sin, but we(imperfect beings) will not be able to do so. Ih8s8n said "There is no temptation without a tempter" as an explanation why Satan was not offered what we were offered. Then the logical question was to ask how Satan was able to sin without a tempter, or who was Satan's tempter.


So, you believe that Satan was tempted by his pride. Question, what is the source(origin) of Satan pride? If God created his pride, the God is the original tempter, if Satan created his own pride, then God didn't create everything.

Or maybe you believe that some things can be created from nothing, so pride was created by nothing and then pride (inanimate thing) created temptation and sin as a consequence. So, God created everything good, but everithing else came into existence by itself (big bang?).

I don't see how any of these possibilities is supported by the Bible.



Perfect being will have no weakness at all. Or maybe it will have perfect everything, including perfect weakness, perfect evil, perfect ability to tempt.


Perfect being should not be able to be more stronger than it is already. Are you comparing yourself with Satan?



So, your future existence will be constant mental torture trying to overcome all the temptations all the time for ever and ever. While mine will be constant physical torture in the flames of hell. And as you are not perfect, how long you think will be able to delay your arrival in hell?

I can see you're still imposing your vision of perfection upon God, this is called blame. You can't get close to Him if you blame Him, you must look to see who truly is to blame, and it's not the person who is perfect (God), it is those who chose imperfection for whatever reason they might have had to do so. This goes on every day around us and even within us, but God has never suffered imperfection. We can all seem to look at it like He should have done something different, but it wasn't Him who sinned that He should have to do anything different! And you can't pass the responsibility for your own sins on to the one who tempts you (Eve suffered for Satan, Adam suffered for Eve), if you know within yourself what is right and wrong then there's no good reason why you would choose to do the wrong thing, that is what we call sin. As for Genesis 1:16, I tend to read literally if all else fails and this says to me that He created the sun and the moon, and also the stars. If you're reading further into it, it is called mysticism and can also lead to a greater understanding, but don't force a greater understanding from it than what God wishes to reveal to you, that will come with time. It's not impossible nor unreasonable to hold the expectations He has of us, certain angels have proven loyalty to God and same with certain humans. It's a struggle we have to overcome that certain something deep within that contests God. No-one can give you a fixed pattern for how to do this, you have to discover exactly what the issue is that keeps you from Him, and to me it appears to be that you blame Him for what has happened.

 

[Upisoft]

I can see you're still imposing your vision of perfection upon God, this is called blame.

No, I'm just asking questions. Unfortunately no one wants to answer them. If it is incorrect to ask questions, then I must apologize.

 

[oi_antz]

No, I'm just asking questions. Unfortunately no one wants to answer them. If it is incorrect to ask questions, then I must apologize.

Well I notice we've given you answers to this already, has it contributed to a greater understanding? Notice that in any situation where something is wrong, someone is to blame. Notice that Satan is to blame for what he did that was wrong. Eve is to blame for what she did that was wrong. Adam is to blame for what he did that was wrong. We've all done some things wrong, for which we are to blame. No-one can pass the buck to God, He is perfect and it just proves that unless we are willing of our own accord to accept His advice, we will be wrong. What motivates this? Pride and greed (is there anything else you can see that motivates disobedience?).