Reason to believe

[razeontherock]

I've only encountered unbelievers who cite reading the Bible as the reason for the unbelief here on CF, and in every instance it's due to them having WAY wrong ideas about what is said.

I'd love to see your reasoning, but let me guess:

the OT shows horrendous Judgments, and actions. So you think this means that's who God is?


It never occurred to you there's such a thing as an anti-type? A negative example?

The Bible is full of them, and it has only 1 hero. HINT: who did Joshua meet when he had his major turn-around, before he started winning?

 

[Upisoft]

Anyhow, I'm far from "angry" for your decision. "Disappointed", maybe. "Angry", not even close.

Don't be disappointing. Have faith in God. My path is not your path. God knows what He is doing (if He exists).

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah, but do you know what He's doing?

 

[Upisoft]

I'd love to see your reasoning, but let me guess:

the OT shows horrendous Judgments, and actions. So you think this means that's who God is?

I'm sorry. I will not explain it, I have my reasons.

And also you are far off with your guess. It is not moral issue. My moral is not from the Bible, so if it was playing any role in my decision the reasoning wouldn't be based only on the Bible. And as I already said my decision was based only on the Bible itself.

 

[Upisoft]

Yeah, but do you know what He's doing?

No I don't, but you may ask Him.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't know what is this.

That's from your post #129, where you couldn't respond to a whole slew of VERY basic questions about the Bible. Didn't you just get done saying you've read it 3 times, and you're making decisions based on it? But you have no clue what it means. That would be, poor judgment. Prescribed correction: put down the OT for a while, and start w/ the basics. Like looking for the answers to the questions I asked you, as you read the NT through, beginning w/ John's Gospel.

If you want to emphasize OT before you comprehend the basics of the NT, that's not even a way to be a Jew. You'd go to Jewish sources for that. And I do think Christians should go to those if they want to understand the OT.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Upisoft, I'm sorry to hear that you've found something discontenting. Although I have no idea what it was because you haven't shared the verse with us, I guess it's totally up to you how you respond to the information God has given us, and if you feel that all the effort He has gone to was to deceive you then I agree you'd be best to not trust that spirit who is talking to you when you read. So I won't press on against your will, but to answer a question you raised a few times earlier, I came across the chapter where Paul speaks about the difference between the body of Adam and the body of Christ, and that when we are resurrected we will be transformed into the likeness of Christ (which is not the likeness of perishable man, but the likeness of Christ Himself).

1 Corinthians 15 (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 15

The Resurrection of Christ

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[d]

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

All the best with your endeavors, I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for with persistence

 

[Upisoft]

That's from your post #129

I said that my decision has nothing to do with anything discussed in this thread and also asked you to ask God if you don't understand my decision. Instead you started digging the past.

Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”(Mark 4:9)

 

[Upisoft]

All the best with your endeavors, I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for with persistence

Have faith.

What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?(Matthew 18:12)

 

[Mcygee]

We don't know. It seems you know that the rules must be 100% randomly generated. You have to explain why.

Still we don't know anything about it. The chances could be 1/2 as well, or even 100% pro life. We don't know the rules that govern how universes are created. You assume it have to be 100% random.

Well it is easy to say you just don't know how the universe was created, and then dismiss any thoughts behind it's creation. But your just fooling yourself at this point. Coming up with an excuse not to agree with the sound facts I've placed in front of you.

Something is either created or it is random. That's universal. If something happens without the help of any intelligence, then obviously the entire outcome will be random. There is no sound argument against this that I've seen or can think of. How can something be half created? In order for any organization to happen, an intelligence of some sort must be involved. How could it not be?

From the arguments on this that you've given me, it leads me to believe you may not be willing to accept the existence of God. If you will argue against this basic concept, then I don't see how you are being open to the possibility of God. Is that not why you are here? If not, it makes me wonder what all this is about. Why bother with this whole thing if you will never accept strong evidence of God's existence. I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm just trying to show you how odd it is that you would reject this evidence with no sound argument against it.

The difference between us is that you suppose you know how the universes come to existence and conclude that they cannot come to existence without a deity. I don't suppose that I know how the universes come to existence. Thus the lack of the logical step you have made. You may call it sticking my head in the sand, I call it not accepting more knowledge than I have as granted.

I actually support the idea that you need to understand what you do not know. It is the basis of so many of the things I research. I try to identify what I do not know, and then research that area. Which is why I can agree that I do not know HOW the universe was create specifically. But my reasoning that something that is not created must be random has no holes that I can find. Set aside how the universe was created, and it still rings true that if nothing intelligent was involved then it was done randomly. Even the general scientific community agrees on this. They believe the first cell came about randomly. If something is not random, then some intelligent being had a hand in it. The scientific community may point out patterns, but those patterns still come about from randomness.

We exist, don't we? We are the winner. As we don't know the rules of the game we cannot suppose anything about our winning.

We don't know the exact number, but with random creation we know the odds are ridiculously low.

It was simple mathematics pointing out that no matter how low you put your "deity probability threshold" I can toss the coin more times and create a sequence that have lower probability. No matter how small a number epsilon is, there is a smaller number that can be expressed as 1 / (2^N). So, it does not matter how low your probability is, you can make lower probability just by tossing the coin(or more coins to speed up the process) long enough, so N is big enough. So, you have to agree that the deity who created the universe(or similar deity) must have something to do with the outcome of your coin tossing experiment.

Well this example COULD be used if you preselect an exact sequence (or a couple exact sequences) out of some incredibly large number (far larger than 1 billion). If then your coin tosses exactly match that sequence, then yes you could say that there was a deity involved. Or at least that the chances of it happening randomly are so slim that the likelihood of help not being involved is almost impossible. Or that when you toss the coin through the whole process twice that the sequence was the exact same. Otherwise just like the other example you have a random outcome no matter what. There was a 100% chance you would get an outcome. Now hitting a preselected outcome, that's more of a comparison to what we are talking about.

The only problem for my logic here is if you postulate that this universe has 0% probability to exist. In this case I cannot toss a coin unlimited number of times.

I wouldn't say it is a 0% chance, just close to it. Just like there would be if you did what I explained above.

Unfortunately the most basic cells possible are no longer living.

No they are not, but scientists do know the minimum things required for a cell to live and divide. Which is an incredibly complex system. They are attempting to create the most basic cells possible right now. Which they might be able to do. However, it won't be by random methods as they say the first cell was. They will have to borrow things from already living organisms and place things together in a very specific way. They say they can create proteins randomly, which only scratches the surface considering that proteins must be first created with amino acids properly and then they have to be bent in a specific 3D shape to do what they were made to do. Which is part of what cells do to replicate themselves.

Self programming is possible. You'd never know what such a machine will be able to achieve.

I can agree with the possibility of self programming. But that still won't equate to life.

And I'm feeling we are turning this into Creation vs. science thread. I don't feel this is the right direction.

Well I believe what occurred up to the point of the first cell is incredibly important. Especially if your mind works based on logic. It supports the idea of God, and thus dismissing it would prove all this to be pointless if we cannot talk about the areas that provide strong evidence of God. But I cannot help if you ignore the logic I've provided.

 

[Upisoft]

I think this is not the appropriate place to continue this discussion, Mcygee. If you want my answers please copy your answer and re-post it in "Creation & Evolution" forum. It is located in Society > Physical & Life Sciences.

 

[visionary]

Is there any reason to believe in Christian God? I mean, a positive constructive reason. Not something like "What you gonna lose?"

Yeah.. there is a real good reason, God who created heaven and earth, is going to do a redo and would like to save as much as He can before wiping out the old with fire. He is asking you to trust Him, get ready for His return to come and save those who are ready for a new world and universe that is made without sin, death, and destruction. Are you interested?

 

[Mcygee]

People die at all ages. Does that mean 1 year old baby death is end of a test?

[BIBLE]Romans 5:13 - "For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law."[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]2 Samuel 12:22-23 (David Speaking) -

"And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

"But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."[/BIBLE]

Children are not held accountable for sin they do unknowingly.

Give me some links to the verses that say so, please. I'm still stuck in Genesis wondering why Cain is afraid of other people, when the text shows he is there with only his parents, as he already killed his brother.

Here are a few links and scriptures.

Will I Be Happy in Heaven ? - Christian Living
[BIBLE]

• 1 Peter 1:3-5
  Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (NIV)

[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]1 John 5:11-13


11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,a]" class="footnote">[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
[/BIBLE]

I lead you 2:0 and counting as I'm reading it for 3rd time. I can tell you I find it extremely boring, especially the parts that describe who was father to whom. NT is different and quite better, but as it says OT is true one must accept them both. Anyway I find NT having quite tempting messages, but isn't that the way Satan is supposed to work by tempting people with things they wish so much so they readily accept? God from OT was more straightforward - ordering and expecting obedience, then punishing disobedience.

Yes many parts of the OT can be skimmed due to providing no real lesson, but instead an account of the families and tribes. God was so harsh with the Israelis because in order for him to dwell among them there could be no sin and all had to be clean. God cannot dwell with sin for he is perfect. There are others in the world who believed and worshiped God outside of the Israelis, but these rules were not placed on them from what I see in the OT. There was a specific reason for his demands with them.

Yet you accept this one that benefits the specific group who believe in it.

It is open to all. Your play on my words is dishonest in its meaning. It is not a religion that tells people they must listen to a group of people in order for that group to control them in war or to gain riches for themselves. Though some in the past have tried to use the bible for that. As history shows. But the words and teachings themselves would actually go against this. Not support it.

 

[oi_antz]

Originally Posted by oi_antz
All the best with your endeavors, I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for with persistence

Have faith.​

What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?(Matthew 18:12)

Great advice, as I know from experience this is exactly what He will do. The question you have to ask yourself is are you a lost sheep or are you a goat, and only you and Jesus know the answer to that, for anyone else to make an assessment is called judgmental. Certainly though, considering the story of the prodigal son, God gives us the freedom we so require that we may come to truly appreciate what it means to be His son when we find out what it means to live without Him.

I hope you will continue to seek the Lord's blessings, all the best.