Reason to believe

[E.C.]

That is what I find quite depressing idea. Don't we have free-will? Can't we just decide that we want the end to come? Living forever could be quite boring.

Free will? Yes.

As for the boring part, I'm sure one would find out after death.

To me you seem to be complicating what is already a sufficiently complex idea. The psyche in Greek thought was technically both the mind and the soul. Our thinking qualities were what distinguished us from irrational animals. Therefore, it is not unusual today to still think of our soul as equivalent to our mind. The only distinction that exists now is that the soul is not unlike a disembodied mind that survives the death of the body, but not every believer in the soul is even like that. Some of them demand that the soul must be bodily and yet immortal, etc.

Ah. I tend to think of the human being made up of mind, body and soul. The mind comprising mostly of intellectual faculties, the soul comprising of spiritual faculties and the body comprising of all the physical faculties. Yet the three remain connected.

 

[Upisoft]

This is a hard concept to understand without presuming that "freedom" means just that. Without the opportunity to disobey there would be no value in obedience, and this particular nature of free-will is what God deemed necessary to make us His perfect children by our own desire rather than His force.

Adam and Eve had insufficient foresight to see all that would happen to the world through disobedience, but after time has run it's course then every human will know the true value of obedience and I guess we can trust Jesus to determine those who belong to Him who truly are capable of knowing better than making the same mistake again, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the new earth, God places the same tree there and we will all know that it really really should not be touched!

It is not necessary to limit our freedom to make us more perfect. It is obvious you believe we can have sufficient foresight, so we do not repeat the same mistake. Why God didn't gave Adam and Eve the ability to see what can happen? He surely can do that. They could see what will happen and still choose to disobey. (There are enough prophets in the Bilble, showing God can give such ability to people and he is willing to give it to us.)

However, when you come to live in a perfect world where there is no sin, you'll have no doubts about wanting to be there forever.

Yet it happened with Adam and Eve, why not with us? I guess there will be plenty of time to make a mistake.

Your soul is more than just a feeling. There are many things that affect our feelings. Also, Satan is probably not the only person at work in you at the moment. It's possible that God is drawing you to himself, making you resist the atheistic position.

I'm getting more and more confused.
oi_antz said God gave us freedom to think as we want. You say God is probably the one who is violating that freedom and drawing me to Him. Also reading your post I think you believe that not only God and Satan are able to violate the privacy of my thoughts, but there are possibly other entities that can do it. So, I'll ask my question again. Why God created us imperfect so almost everything is able to reach into our thoughts? If I become to believe in Christian God I'll never know if my thoughts are my own.

So, I encourage you to read the Gospels and also the epistles written by Paul and ask yourself ‘what is the best explanation for what is written in these books’.

I may reread them. The last time I did that was about 2 years ago. I got a lot of advises how to read it, but as always I found only confusion.

 

[oi_antz]

It is not necessary to limit our freedom to make us more perfect. It is obvious you believe we can have sufficient foresight, so we do not repeat the same mistake. Why God didn't gave Adam and Eve the ability to see what can happen? He surely can do that. They could see what will happen and still choose to disobey. (There are enough prophets in the Bilble, showing God can give such ability to people and he is willing to give it to us.)


Yet it happened with Adam and Eve, why not with us? I guess there will be plenty of time to make a mistake.



I'm getting more and more confused.
oi_antz said God gave us freedom to think as we want. You say God is probably the one who is violating that freedom and drawing me to Him. Also reading your post I think you believe that not only God and Satan are able to violate the privacy of my thoughts, but there are possibly other entities that can do it. So, I'll ask my question again. Why God created us imperfect so almost everything is able to reach into our thoughts? If I become to believe in Christian God I'll never know if my thoughts are my own.


I may reread them. The last time I did that was about 2 years ago. I got a lot of advises how to read it, but as always I found only confusion.

Upisoft, we are getting further into confusion because you are not hearing what God says, instead you are applying your own expectations to God, in a sense blaming Him for what went wrong. This is natural for an unbeliever because of what I said earlier that if you don't esteem God to a position above yourself then you will not be able to see His point of view. You need the Holy Spirit to guide you but it is not in God's nature to force you into the truth, you have to seek it with an open heart (which means to listen to what God says, hear what contests it, and make the wisest decision about who you will trust - God, yourself or God's enemy).

I think as long as you think God is to blame for something you don't like, you'll be unable to see who really is to blame, and concerning the fall in the garden of Eden, it was Satan who deceived Eve, and Eve who passed that on to Adam, and all three of these people disobeyed God, thereby each believing that they knew better than God. Can't you see the same mistake being repeated by your own process of reasoning?

Only God knows best, and when you want to see what His motives are, you need to be prepared to accept that He is perfect and He gives us all the opportunity to either trust Him or discover the consequences for not trusting Him.

We each must face the decision whether we will trust God or whether we will trust someone else, and even if the human was to live forever, I don't believe the human's knowledge/understanding/wisdom would ever be a comparison to God's, so this is why I have chosen to trust God over man and accept that when He says He is perfect and the world was originally designed without sin, and that we will be forgiven if we will make our best effort to obey Him, I believe Him.

I wonder if you think that is the best option or whether you think a human contesting God will ever be able to overthrow Him?

I hope I have stressed enough that until you are prepared to believe that God is without fault, you are holding a grudge against God which will prevent you from accepting Him in His perfection. The grudges we hold against God are the single most harmful act we can perform, I know this from my own experience when I disagreed with God 9 years ago and went a long long way from being Christian until eventually I was able to lay my grudge to rest and come to accept Him as being right while I was wrong. God won't buckle under pressure you know, He is the solid rock and if we have a problem with Him, it naturally becomes a problem for ourselves.

 

[JasperJackson]

I'm getting more and more confused.
oi_antz said God gave us freedom to think as we want. You say God is probably the one who is violating that freedom and drawing me to Him. Also reading your post I think you believe that not only God and Satan are able to violate the privacy of my thoughts, but there are possibly other entities that can do it. So, I'll ask my question again. Why God created us imperfect so almost everything is able to reach into our thoughts? If I become to believe in Christian God I'll never know if my thoughts are my own.

Apologies for the confusion. It's because we've gone onto one of the "secondary issues" Christians disagree on. All Christians believe in the same core message: "that Jesus died for our sins to reconcile us to God", but there are other theological issues that we disagree on. I believe God draws us to himself, oi_antz seems to believe it is us who seek God. Which is actually true is really not important though.
I think I may have been more of a hindrance in this conversation. oi_antz's latest post is very useful. Read that one! I wish you well in the answers you're seeking.

 

[oi_antz]

Apologies for the confusion. It's because we've gone onto one of the "secondary issues" Christians disagree on. All Christians believe in the same core message: "that Jesus died for our sins to reconcile us to God", but there are other theological issues that we disagree on. I believe God draws us to himself, oi_antz seems to believe it is us who seek God. Which is actually true is really not important though.
I think I may have been more of a hindrance in this conversation. oi_antz's latest post is very useful. Read that one! I wish you well in the answers you're seeking.

I don't disagree with you, when God calls us and puts us in the position of making the most important decision of our life, we realise we would be mad to decline His offer! But the decision is for us to make for better or worse, it is clearly a manifestation of free will that the decision rests on our shoulders. But it is clear through scripture that God will not turn away a sincere seeker:

Matthew 7:7 (New International Version © 2010)
Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version © 2010)
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So, it requires humility to put God above ourselves and to accept that He is right while we may be wrong. "Knock and the door will be opened to you". Arrive at the door in a threating manner though, what do you really expect?

 

[Upisoft]

I think as long as you think God is to blame for something you don't like, you'll be unable to see who really is to blame, and concerning the fall in the garden of Eden, it was Satan who deceived Eve, and Eve who passed that on to Adam, and all three of these people disobeyed God, thereby each believing that they knew better than God. Can't you see the same mistake being repeated by your own process of reasoning?

Technically speaking I'm not blaming God, As I need to believe in Him to do that. When I hypothetically assume I believe in God, I cannot stop the chain of reasoning that leads to blaming Him for the outcome. He created Earth for us, but what is Satan doing there? It is like saying He created the heaven for Himself and the angels, but somehow few vermin humans was able to go there without His knowledge. He says that He gives us free-will, but the free-will is flawed and easily hijacked by whoever wants to play with us. I don't know better than God. Maybe he gave the control of our free-will to the Satan for a reason.

Only God knows best, and when you want to see what His motives are, you need to be prepared to accept that He is perfect and He gives us all the opportunity to either trust Him or discover the consequences for not trusting Him.

I guess I have to live with the consequences. I was searching for a reason to believe in Him. Just accepting He is perfect for no reason is unacceptable for me.

I wonder if you think that is the best option or whether you think a human contesting God will ever be able to overthrow Him?

If God exists there is no doubt no one will be able to oppose Him. How one is supposed to overthrow omnipotent being?

I hope I have stressed enough that until you are prepared to believe that God is without fault

As I already said, I'm not ready to believe without a reason. I hope reason is gift from God, not from Satan.

 

[Upisoft]

Apologies for the confusion. It's because we've gone onto one of the "secondary issues" Christians disagree on. All Christians believe in the same core message: "that Jesus died for our sins to reconcile us to God", but there are other theological issues that we disagree on. I believe God draws us to himself, oi_antz seems to believe it is us who seek God. Which is actually true is really not important though.

I'm man of reason, for me there are no unimportant issues. Especially when it comes to the question who is thinking in my head, me, Satan or God?

 

[Harry3142]

Upisoft-

Christianity is truly unique. Whereas other religions say, "If you do this while refraining from doing that you might merit eternal life," Christianity says, "Because God did this rather than doing that we are assured of eternal life." The righteousness which Christianity teaches must be attained in order to have eternal life is also a righteousness which Christianity teaches that none of us will ever obtain through our own work. So, rather than just 'write us off' and go on about his other work, Christianity teaches that God laid out the blueprint for what we are to see as a rescue mission:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which God accepts as true righteousness is his own. Fortunately for us, he has seen fit to share that righteousness with us. All we need to do is accept that he himself has provided the means of our salvation, and we do that through our recognizing Jesus Christ as the propitiation for our sins.

Yes, it's that easy.

 

[Upisoft]

Hello Harry,

Christianity is truly unique. Whereas other religions say, "If you do this while refraining from doing that you might merit eternal life," Christianity says, "Because God did this rather than doing that we are assured of eternal life."

According to what I've been told I have to believe in God and refrain to put other gods (things) before Him. So it is like other religions. With other religions God also offers eternal life. And the eternal life in other religions is His doing, who else? Other religions lack details on how that eternal life is granted, but that doesn't make eternal life doing of someone else.

So, rather than just 'write us off' and go on about his other work, Christianity teaches that God laid out the blueprint for what we are to see as a rescue mission:

How can I believe to omniscient being that needs a rescue mission? Especially when He let Satan in the Garden of Eden and made us Satan's puppets. Is it good what He did? I can't believe it is good.

The righteousness which God accepts as true righteousness is his own. Fortunately for us, he has seen fit to share that righteousness with us. All we need to do is accept that he himself has provided the means of our salvation, and we do that through our recognizing Jesus Christ as the propitiation for our sins.

Yes, it's that easy.

It isn't that easy at all. They said to me that Satan is the one who makes me doubt Jesus. Thus Satan is able to control my mind. Suppose now that I somehow become believer. Is it my belief or Satan is making me believe that I believe in God, comforting me with thoughts not of my own. And when I die I go to hell, because I couldn't tell the difference between real belief and false belief planted in me by Satan.

 

[oi_antz]

Technically speaking I'm not blaming God, As I need to believe in Him to do that. When I hypothetically assume I believe in God, I cannot stop the chain of reasoning that leads to blaming Him for the outcome. He created Earth for us, but what is Satan doing there? It is like saying He created the heaven for Himself and the angels, but somehow few vermin humans was able to go there without His knowledge. He says that He gives us free-will, but the free-will is flawed and easily hijacked by whoever wants to play with us. I don't know better than God. Maybe he gave the control of our free-will to the Satan for a reason.

Not correct, there are no vermin humans in heaven, only those with true faith in God who have dedicated their lives to honoring Him.

Satan is a fallen angel, there is a verse which explains what he is doing on earth, coincidentally it was right above the other verse I quoted a few pages back. I guess this shows that omitting information from the Bible can actually be as harmful as adding to it!

Revelation 12
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

I think it is pretty obvious from assessing the state of the world at any point in time since the fall, that not every human is capable of defeating Satan because some of them choose to show partiality to what he argues for instead of God. So this is why God has prepared the lake of fire for Satan when the time comes that all that is necessary to have happened in the world (the saving of the lost sheep and the evidence necessary to convict all sinners) is completed and Jesus will come to make His final judgment.

I guess I have to live with the consequences. I was searching for a reason to believe in Him. Just accepting He is perfect for no reason is unacceptable for me.

Well for some such as I had, they may have an instant revelation which puts the whole situation in perspective. For others, they may need to discover the crucial piece of understanding they lack before this can happen. From my own experience and what I have witness happen to others, just hearing the Holy Spirit even once by reading the Bible is enough to convert a person. Your problem as I have said is that you aren't listening to the Holy Spirit, and until you are prepared to hear what He says you will certainly suffer the consequences, in your present situation the consequence is confusion.

If God exists there is no doubt no one will be able to oppose Him. How one is supposed to overthrow omnipotent being?

Exactly my point, it is impossible so the only harm we can do is to ourselves!

As I already said, I'm not ready to believe without a reason. I hope reason is gift from God, not from Satan.

So do I, but if you really do want it from God, you have to prepare yourself to accept His point of view. You haven't yet done this.

 

[Upisoft]

Not correct, there are no vermin humans in heaven, only those with true faith in God who have dedicated their lives to honoring Him.

Satan is a fallen angel, there is a verse which explains what he is doing on earth, coincidentally it was right above the other verse I quoted a few pages back. I guess this shows that omitting information from the Bible can actually be as harmful as adding to it!

In the verse you cited, Jesus tells us the Satan is the father of our thoughts. There is no explanation what Satan was doing in Garden of Eden.

Also it is not good to criticize others, when you can make the same mistake. I said "It is like saying", not that the Bible said that. The fact is Satan was in Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve did anything wrong. They were created by God, so Satan is not their father. So again, what is Satan doing where he does not belong? Why there are no people in Heaven where they do not belong if Satan was allowed to go where he does not belong?

I think it is pretty obvious from assessing the state of the world at any point in time since the fall, that not every human is capable of defeating Satan because some of them choose to show partiality to what he argues for instead of God. So this is why God has prepared the lake of fire for Satan when the time comes that all that is necessary to have happened in the world (the saving of the lost sheep and the evidence necessary to convict all sinners) is completed and Jesus will come to make His final judgment.

So God, who created everything in 6 days, needs thousands of years to do that? We agreed about omnipotence of God and that there is no point to oppose omnipotent being. Satan should be cloud of vapor by now. Instead you assure me that Satan is very much alive and twisting minds of people. Is it good to let Satan doing what he do?

From my own experience and what I have witness happen to others, just hearing the Holy Spirit even once by reading the Bible is enough to convert a person. Your problem as I have said is that you aren't listening to the Holy Spirit, and until you are prepared to hear what He says you will certainly suffer the consequences, in your present situation the consequence is confusion.

I've read the Bible twice. I don't know why the Holy Spirit is not talking to me. I'll read it again, so say how I need to prepare myself? If it is "to accept His point of view" then I can't, accepting it means to already believe.

 

[JasperJackson]

I'm man of reason, for me there are no unimportant issues. Especially when it comes to the question who is thinking in my head, me, Satan or God?

Fair enough.
To clarify, Satan is not doing your thinking, he's not violating your free will. He tempts us to sin, encourages us to sin, but we're the ones who actually sin. We're the guilty ones.
Now, as for God, does he violate our free will? Maybe. By who we are, we tend to exercise our free will by sinning. If God does violate our free will it's not by making us sin or not sin it's by giving us faith: faith in Jesus because we need a saviour (because of our sin). And we sin because Adam sinned first. We inherited this sin nature from him. I'm not saying there's necessarily a sin 'gene' but somehow we've inherited it.

So you may ask why do it this way after all? Why not create us without the ability to sin in the first place? Short answer: I don't know, as the Bible doesn't make that clear. But it may have something to do with how we tend to appreciate and love someone we thought we lost. Like when you're a kid at a park and you think you've lost your parents but then you find them again - you appreciate them more. That's something like how you appreciate/love God.

 

[Upisoft]

To clarify, Satan is not doing your thinking, he's not violating your free will. He tempts us to sin, encourages us to sin, but we're the ones who actually sin.

If I can't tell if my thoughts were such as they are, because I was tempted to sin, how is that any different? For me they are mine alone, that's how I feel. I had to assume the idea that Satan is able to change them somehow, so I can explore the claim. However I don't feel any different, no matter what I think. So, the assumption led me to the conclusion that one of the following is true:
1. Satan is controlling all my thoughts. The verse oi_antz cited somehow support that, if I'm reading it correctly. Now the problem is that I can think I believe in God, but actually I believe in something else and Satan is tempting me to believe that I actually believe in God instead. Satan 1 - 0 me.
2. All my thoughts are mine. Satan is not paying attention to me. Result 1-0. Satan wins because I condemn myself.
3. Mix of 1 and 2. Sometimes Satan control my thoughts and sometimes they are my own, but I'm unable to tell the difference. Result 1-0. Satan wins as 1 and 2 are already with clear outcome.
4. God decided to help me. In this case I don't see how Satan will be able to oppose God, thus God is the only one who is leading me. God leads me to agnosticism, thus I'm following Him. 0-1. I win.

So you may ask why do it this way after all? Why not create us without the ability to sin in the first place? Short answer: I don't know, as the Bible doesn't make that clear. But it may have something to do with how we tend to appreciate and love someone we thought we lost. Like when you're a kid at a park and you think you've lost your parents but then you find them again - you appreciate them more. That's something like how you appreciate/love God.

That is good point for our parents. They are not omnipotent and omniscient beings. God is, so it must be impossible for Him to lose us. It had to be done on purpose. Parents will never leave intentionally their children in the park.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Upisoft,

I'm getting a little sick of repeating myself, and I guess you are probably feeling the same way, so I'm beginning to feel there is nothing I can say to you which will help you because you're not demonstrating an openness to understand God's point of view. Your replies are consistently arguing that the God of the Holy Bible was not right in your opinion to make the decisions He made, but you've not even seen the situation from His point of view, you're looking at it from the inside-out and you can't actually get a proper perspective of the matter until you see it from God's point of view, which you have been constantly ignoring in favor of your own point of view. How many times have I said this now, yet it still appears that you think you have a better understanding of what happened than God did, while it is clear that you have some blatant flaws in your understanding of what God has said. Let me address these one by one this time instead of replying to your whole post:

In the verse you cited, Jesus tells us the Satan is the father of our thoughts. There is no explanation what Satan was doing in Garden of Eden.

Jesus didn't say that, He said Satan is the father of lies. Your thoughts originate from the spiritual realm and manifest into the physical realm when you think. Your soul is the person in charge of deciding which thoughts you will believe, so you have just as much opportunity to hear the truth from God as you do to hear a lie from the devil. Which thoughts you choose to nurture and accept are not God's nor Satan's decision to make, it is yours.

Also it is not good to criticize others, when you can make the same mistake. I said "It is like saying", not that the Bible said that. The fact is Satan was in Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve did anything wrong. They were created by God, so Satan is not their father. So again, what is Satan doing where he does not belong? Why there are no people in Heaven where they do not belong if Satan was allowed to go where he does not belong?

Perhaps you don't understand the history of Satan, he was the angel Lucifer, who thought he might stand a chance to promote himself to God's level, so he brought an attack toward God and the angels who remained loyal to God defeated him, forcing him out of heaven. The verse I gave you tells us he fell to earth, and "woe to the earth" because of this. Yet you seem to not even look at the verses which answer your questions, either that or you simply can't comprehend them because you don't have sufficient desire to.

So God, who created everything in 6 days, needs thousands of years to do that?

Again, here you think your idea of resolution is better than God's, yet you clearly don't see how perfectly generous it is of Him to allow us all the chance for redemption. I'm certainly glad He waited for me! I can't say I have always felt that way though

We agreed about omnipotence of God and that there is no point to oppose omnipotent being. Satan should be cloud of vapor by now. Instead you assure me that Satan is very much alive and twisting minds of people. Is it good to let Satan doing what he do?

I remember when I became perceptive to the enemy and wished death upon them, they all laughed at me and said "You wished death upon your enemies!", and instantly I understood that wishing death upon your enemies doesn't make you a very good person at all!

I've read the Bible twice. I don't know why the Holy Spirit is not talking to me. I'll read it again, so say how I need to prepare myself? If it is "to accept His point of view" then I can't, accepting it means to already believe.

Well then, how do you expect to know the truth if you aren't prepared to accept it. Reading the Bible while expecting it to be wrong is not going to show you how right it is! How is it that you think it would be beneficial if you have that sort of attitude about it? I went for 9 years arguing that the Bible was rubbish, didn't make sense, was written by cavemen who didn't know anything of value about the world we live in. I never discovered God's point of view while I held that attitude. Only after several days of intense seeking of truth was I prepared to give God but one chance to prove Himself. Once I had opened my heart to God, I asked the Christians to show me just one verse that would prove the Bible is right, and when that happened I received, as I mentioned already, sufficient revelation to make everything fall into place and instantly I was able to read the Bible knowing that every single word is true, and what developed was a hunger to learn more about what God's point of view is.

So, I've already said I'm getting tired of repeating myself, I've been telling you the same thing in every reply: that you need to esteem God as being correct, and humble yourself to a position of learning from Him, but you've not shown any motivation to do this and I'm feeling that I'm probably not helping you at all even by sharing with you the understandings I have about the questions you raise. Your questions have all been through my mind already, this is how I am able to give you my perspective and back it up with scripture:

Matthew 11:25 (New International Version)
The Father Revealed in the Son
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

You'll have to actually think about what this verse means, because as long as you are so proud to think you know better than God, you'll not be able to learn from Him. Only when you humble yourself to Him and seek to learn from Him as a child learns from adults, then you'll begin to find the answers you need. It's your call to make, it is not a decision anyone else can make for you.

 

[Upisoft]

I'm getting a little sick of repeating myself, and I guess you are probably feeling the same way, so I'm beginning to feel there is nothing I can say to you which will help you because you're not demonstrating an openness to understand God's point of view.

You are correct. I came to seek reason, and reason is very different from openness. I cannot trust blindly anyone. The last time I did it I was lied terrible lies. We learn from experience and my experience tells me to not trust blindly. First there must be a reason. Because if I accept what you propose I don't know if you speak the truth or you are lying to me and trying to close my eyes for the true belief, which might be Islam for example. How can I trust you?

Your replies are consistently arguing that the God of the Holy Bible was not right in your opinion to make the decisions He made, but you've not even seen the situation from His point of view, you're looking at it from the inside-out and you can't actually get a proper perspective of the matter until you see it from God's point of view, which you have been constantly ignoring in favor of your own point of view.

You tell me that I can't tell good from evil and yet Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden because:

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

God tells me I know the difference. You tell me I don't. Who should I believe?

Jesus didn't say that, He said Satan is the father of lies. Your thoughts originate from the spiritual realm and manifest into the physical realm when you think. Your soul is the person in charge of deciding which thoughts you will believe, so you have just as much opportunity to hear the truth from God as you do to hear a lie from the devil. Which thoughts you choose to nurture and accept are not God's nor Satan's decision to make, it is yours.

Yes Jesus said that Satan is the father of lies. I know that because I read what you cited. But also He said: "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires". If our desires are Satan's desires who is the father of our thoughts that express our desires?

Perhaps you don't understand the history of Satan, he was the angel Lucifer, who thought he might stand a chance to promote himself to God's level, so he brought an attack toward God and the angels who remained loyal to God defeated him, forcing him out of heaven. The verse I gave you tells us he fell to earth, and "woe to the earth" because of this. Yet you seem to not even look at the verses which answer your questions, either that or you simply can't comprehend them because you don't have sufficient desire to.

I have read and reread the verses probably 10 times to see if I'm in error, but it doesn't matter how much I read them I can't find the word "earth" or anything that remotely assembles it. Maybe it is said somewhere else, but it is not in the verses you've quoted.

I remember when I became perceptive to the enemy and wished death upon them, they all laughed at me and said "You wished death upon your enemies!", and instantly I understood that wishing death upon your enemies doesn't make you a very good person at all!

The flood. Only few survived. But Satan is "precious", no harm to him. I see double standards here, don't you?

Well then, how do you expect to know the truth if you aren't prepared to accept it. Reading the Bible while expecting it to be wrong is not going to show you how right it is!

I'll be ready to accept if there is reason to do so. I'm not reading the Bible to search what is wrong. I read it to find a reason, but I couldn't.

I'm ready to give God opportunity, but I can't do it by blindly(or like a child) accepting your words or the Bible. My reason is that there is not only one religion out there. Why I should choose Christianity, if I ever choose any of them at all? It is not going to happen by blind selection.

 

[Mcygee]

We aren't here to get something out of God. We are here to worship God. It just so happens that by obeying and loving him, we save ourselves as well. Which is the system he has designed.

It makes sense to me that God would give us free will and the knowledge of good and evil so that we may prove our love and honor to him. What is the point of surrounding yourself with people who love you because you made them so that they HAD to. That isn't true love. True love requires the option. We are being given the option.

God showed us before Jesus that we are weak and on our own we will fail. So what did he do? He sent his only son (and experienced our struggles here on earth as a human) to die to pay for our sins. God is perfect, so much so that he cannot be near evil and sin. Therefore he had to make a way to clear us of these sins.

I find the system to make a lot of sense. Also I don't expect to understand all of it. After all, if God does exist, then it would make sense that we would not completely understand his plan. It also would make sense that he would expect us to trust his judgment. A lot of it is just about what you don't know. Some people bash God for his cruelty when they honestly have no clue as to what happened. You cannot be more loving or caring than God. That would make no sense. God created our love and therefore it cannot be greater than his. So therefore we should have faith that what he does is far more loving than what we can understand. For instance, the animal kingdom. Upon first glance it seems to be a system where a lot of suffering occurs. However, do we really know animals are suffering? I don't believe animals have any consciousness. We were created in Gods image, meaning our self awareness, love, emotions, and the knowledge of right and wrong. I don't think animals truly have any soul but are merely as if we created robots. Designed to behave as programmed and that's it. Ridiculous? Not if God exists. I don't believe God creates unnecessary suffering, and I have faith he is far more loving than me. I wouldn't create unneeded suffering, so why would he?

I think this is really what faith is about. It's about trusting that God is doing what is right. Frankly I don't believe faith is about if he exist or not. That question is easy. Science has utterly failed to provide an explanation that makes any sense. God's existence is easy to see if we just open our eyes and logically thing about things. Faith really comes in when we trust that he knows what he is doing, and that he nothing less than perfect love and goodness.

 

[Harry3142]

Upisoft-

You're mistaken about all religions teaching their theology as a means of getting into heaven. Judaism does not teach that by obeying the laws of Torah we will earn admittance into heaven. The only reward which God agreed to give them is this:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

That's it. There is the contract which God entered into with the Hebrew nation. They obeyed his laws in the here-and-now; they received their reward in the here-and-now. It was never the intention of the Torah to be a 'roadmap to heaven'. The laws contained therein were to be obeyed simply because that was what a ragtag group of people (the 12 tribes) needed to do in order to become a cohesive society. Its purpose was not to make people perfect, but only to make them civilized.

By the time of Jesus' coming among us there were those who took the laws of Torah and tried to use them as a means of earning salvation. The passage I quoted in my previous message (Romans 3:19-26) was a response to, and a rebuttal of, that teaching. The righteousness that makes us civilized and safe to live with we can learn from studying Torah. But the righteousness that makes us perfect, a prerequisite for entering God's presence, is a righteousness which we cannot earn or augment. It must be given to us as quite literally a gift from God, or else it is truly unattainable.

You may disagree with our Christian belief. That is your right. But at least you now know what that belief has as its foundation. God bless-

 

[oi_antz]

You are correct. I came to seek reason, and reason is very different from openness. I cannot trust blindly anyone. The last time I did it I was lied terrible lies. We learn from experience and my experience tells me to not trust blindly. First there must be a reason. Because if I accept what you propose I don't know if you speak the truth or you are lying to me and trying to close my eyes for the true belief, which might be Islam for example. How can I trust you?

Yes, I couldn't trust anyone else either when I came to it, in fact I was so stubborn everything people would say to me I would decide for myself if it made sense. Strangely enough, the process of opening my heart came through personal eureka's, first I realized the process of seeking truth is to look for an answer to the question and seek affirmation from within. This led me to question who I was trusting when I did this, was it God I was consulting within, and if not why not? So this is what led me to become sufficiently desperate to invite God into my heart so I could have the assurance that I was trusting the best person. Well, all I can say to you is that you have options about who to trust. There is yourself, there is other people, there is God and there is Satan. Of all these options I would suggest God first and yourself second, and sure, if you can't make sense of your fellow man, don't just outright believe the message you get from him, it's most likely nothing of the sort of understanding he has tried to portray! Communication has serious limits you know, but spirituality overcomes this, to reveal concepts to us directly.

You tell me that I can't tell good from evil and yet Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden because:
"Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil."

God tells me I know the difference. You tell me I don't. Who should I believe?

You misunderstand what I mean and what God means, my comment referred to matters of truth and lie, essentially whether you decide that the Bible is correct or whether you decide that you know better. Genesis 3:22 refers to the matter of conscience, whereby if we commit a sin or even if we are tempted to sin, then our conscience trains us to identify what is good and what is evil. The comments you are comparing are very different.

Yes Jesus said that Satan is the father of lies. I know that because I read what you cited. But also He said: "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires". If our desires are Satan's desires who is the father of our thoughts that express our desires?

I think I explained quite well already the origin of thoughts are spiritual, and we manifest into the physical realm when we choose which thoughts will shape our beliefs/character/actions. The reason we may choose one or the other is either we want to glorify God and live in honor to Him, or we want to glorify ourselves and live by motivations of selfishness and greed. Satan always tempts us that there is something rewarding in sin, and this is why those who belong to Satan desire to perform sin. As a Christian we train ourselves to be perceptive to thoughts which support what God has told us in the Bible, and rebuke the thoughts which contradict God's truth. There is a clear decision to make, whether we desire to belong to God and give preference always to what He says, and if we choose not to, then naturally we decide to believe a multitude of lies that contradict what God says.

I have read and reread the verses probably 10 times to see if I'm in error, but it doesn't matter how much I read them I can't find the word "earth" or anything that remotely assembles it. Maybe it is said somewhere else, but it is not in the verses you've quoted.

Here it is again:

Revelation 12:12 (New International Version)

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

The flood. Only few survived. But Satan is "precious", no harm to him. I see double standards here, don't you?

How do you know death is the end of life? Don't you see that Satan envies the human for having a human body? Once we are stripped of the body we have only a spiritual existence, which is equivalent to what Satan has.

I'll be ready to accept if there is reason to do so. I'm not reading the Bible to search what is wrong. I read it to find a reason, but I couldn't.

There is something waiting for us to learn every time we read the Bible. If you aren't receiving this level of fulfillment when you read, it is because you have not humbled yourself to learn as a child from God.

I'm ready to give God opportunity, but I can't do it by blindly(or like a child) accepting your words or the Bible. My reason is that there is not only one religion out there. Why I should choose Christianity, if I ever choose any of them at all? It is not going to happen by blind selection.

Well, as far as I know, Christianity is the only religion who claims to put you in direct contact with God that you can have a personal relationship with Him. Also, I think it is the only religion who claims their messiah is everlasting and omnipresent, that we too can have a personal relationship with Him. I think that puts it in quite a unique position compared to other religions. Essentially you have to be honest about whether you're really entertaining what God says, or whether you're choosing to believe something else. A good question to ask yourself, which I think I've mentioned already, is whether you can find a fault in Jesus, did He deserve to be crucified, or is the Bible correct when it says He was killed out of envy and hatred from His fellow man who couldn't accept that He was right while they were wrong?

 

[JasperJackson]

Upisoft,

To know right from wrong you need to renew your mind with the word of God. Then you will know how God wants us to live and what is/isn't sin. But at this stage you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God. That's fine for now. So to get to that point you need to study Jesus, study his claims that he was God and that he could forgive sin and that he is basically your ticket to heaven. Once you can trust Jesus everything else about theology just falls into place.

 

[Upisoft]

oi_antz, you accuse me of not reading the verses you quote for me. However this is not what happens. I read not only the verse you quote, I read the whole chapter to grasp the context of the story told.

And the chapter Revelation 12 begins with a woman in heaven. A pregnant woman that was about to give birth. In pain. I hope you know what that means.

So, when I asked you what is Satan doing in Garden of Eden before the fall, you answer me with a story that clearly begins after the fall. It is clear that you don't pay attention to my questions.



--------------------to all------------------

I'm tired of all this. I'm going to tell to all of you how I'm feeling now. After so many posts I feel that you cannot give me a reason to believe. I feel that you want me to do a leap of faith instead of a rational decision.

In Genesis 3 Satan, complete stranger, tempted Eve. She made a leap of faith and tasted the forbidden fruit.

I'm feeling like I'm in Genesis 3. I've met complete strangers that want me to make a leap of faith. I'm even told that I'll gain knowledge (all will become completely clear to me) and I'll know what God knows (I'll share His viewpoint). I even see that the tree and fruit are all good (the Bible is pleasing food for the soul, I can clearly see that), and they are also desirable for gaining wisdom.

What is the nest step? To reach and take a fruit and eat it.

Will I do like Eve did? No.
I will not make unreasonable leap of faith.

There is no point to continue the discussion at this moment. Maybe after few years I'll try again.