Reason to believe

[Upisoft]

Well even the angels suffered a rebellion against God so angels have just as much responsibility as we do to honor God. Don't you remember the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? There was no sin in the world originally, it is only when the human decided they would want to be "like God, knowing good and evil" that the conscience came into play. Before that time there was no conscience, no concept of good and evil, only innocence. And there was no death:

Yes, I have read the Bible as I have read the Holy Books of other religions. Most people say that Adam and Eve disobeyed God, because they had free-will. But that does not make any sense to me. God may just created them so they may wish everything else, except disobeying. We would live in heaven now.

Jesus gives us the right to think freely, this is what I came to realize when I was converted, that having the truth defined and thereby accepting that truth, I was liberated to know the wild nature of the thoughts that can come to mind, and by knowing that Christianity was the absolute resolve of truth, then I had all the freedom to consider the wild thoughts while also having the peace of mind that I would always reduce them down to the ultimate truth that is defined by God, thereby expanding my understanding by thinking alone! And there is no end to coming to know the ultimate truth of God, it grows continuously day by day. How long has it been since you read the Bible? Haven't you found that the Bible stimulates you to think beyond what you already know?

The Bible stimulates me no more than the Qur'an. All Holy Books of the world religions contain a lot of wisdom mixed with a lot of confusion, at least that's how it looks to me. For example one of the confusions is that you say that Jesus gave us the right to think freely and also gave the right to Satan to "possess" our thinking.

 

[oi_antz]

Yes, I have read the Bible as I have read the Holy Books of other religions. Most people say that Adam and Eve disobeyed God, because they had free-will. But that does not make any sense to me. God may just created them so they may wish everything else, except disobeying. We would live in heaven now.

Again, this comes down to our struggle to see God's point of view. Perhaps if you read Genesis chapters 1-3, you will see how wonderful it started and how terrible it ended. Eve was deceived by the serpent, it wasn't through being aware of "good and bad", but through believing the enemy's lie. It is obvious here that if we don't believe God to be telling the truth, we'll believe the enemy to be telling the truth, which is a lie according to Jesus.

"Genesis 3:5 (New International Version © 2010)

5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

When God had already told them that they would die and they understood that. So the enemy has been out to steal, kill and destroy since the beginning. Hence what Jesus says about the devil in John 8 (he was a murderer since the beginning, and the father of lies):

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

The Bible stimulates me no more than the Qur'an. All Holy Books of the world religions contain a lot of wisdom mixed with a lot of confusion, at least that's how it looks to me. For example one of the confusions is that you say that Jesus gave us the right to think freely and also gave the right to Satan to "possess" our thinking.

Yes, the Qur'an can stimulate us too, but it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christians who already know the Holy Spirit are able to discern the spirits, and when the Qur'an contradicts the story of Jesus then we know there is a problem. For instance, the Holy Bible says Jesus is the son of God, whereas the Qur'an says He is just a prophet.

You can see from the John 8 verses above that we either belong to God or the devil, since we are sinners opposed to God by nature, then we belong to the devil. Only by Jesus can we belong to God. If anyone gives the right to Satan or Jesus to influence our thinking, it is ourselves by either
a) accepting what Jesus says is true
b) denying what Jesus says is true

I would suggest you read the gospels again and see whether you can find a fault in Jesus, and if you can then bingo! You've found why you think you know better than God. If not, then you'll have learned something new along the way, and by not disagreeing with Jesus then you'll have accepted Him, because He says "I am the way, the truth and the life, no-one comes to the Father except through me".

 

[oi_antz]

By the way, if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, we wouldn't live in heaven, we would live forever on earth because there was no death.

 

[E.C.]

Is there any reason to believe in Christian God? I mean, a positive constructive reason. Not something like "What you gonna lose?"

To heal the soul.

 

[Upisoft]

Again, this comes down to our struggle to see God's point of view. Perhaps if you read Genesis chapters 1-3, you will see how wonderful it started and how terrible it ended.

I've read it and I can't understand why God didn't prevent it. I see they have believed in the enemy of God, but why they were able to do so in first place? If God have created us perfect, we would be unable to believe anyone else. What is the point to create what is not perfect?

By the way, if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, we wouldn't live in heaven, we would live forever on earth because there was no death.

But we still would be with God and you said being with God is what heaven is, so the exact place doesn't really matter. It would be Heaven on Earth, right?

To heal the soul.

I don't know what soul is. If it is the thing that makes me wonder then it is healed when I accept the agnostic position. I feel the same way when I try to believe in God and when I try to believe in no God(atheism). And that is also puzzling me. oi_antz said the Satan is responsible for my doubts, but why Satan will not allow me to disbelieve God? He should be very happy with that.

 

[98cwitr]

Is there any reason to believe in Christian God? I mean, a positive constructive reason. Not something like "What you gonna lose?"

How about what you can gain? Eternal life!

 

[Upisoft]

How about what you can gain? Eternal life!

Eternal life is scaring idea for me. I want to live somehow longer, but not eternally. I want to be able to cease to exists. I want the comfort of knowing it is an option that I'm allowed to take.

 

[E.C.]

I don't know what soul is. If it is the thing that makes me wonder then it is healed when I accept the agnostic position. I feel the same way when I try to believe in God and when I try to believe in no God(atheism). And that is also puzzling me. oi_antz said the Satan is responsible for my doubts, but why Satan will not allow me to disbelieve God? He should be very happy with that.

The soul is what causes us to live. Without the soul than we would not be alive.

Satan is responsible, yes, but he tends to work in stages. He's a tricky fellow I'll admit, but he tends to gradually entice people into disbelief over a period of time. He'll start with irrelevance and then come doubts and then comes outright disbelief. Yet there must be somebody in your soul that is keeping you from disbelief. That in itself is worthy of looking into.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

I could've sworn it was the spirit that made us alive, the soul by a Christian understanding is what makes us unique and individual human personalities and identities. The soul exists without the spirit, since it is immortal, the spirit is just what animates the body with a soul intertwined in a sense.

Why does it always have to be someone else that's responsible for why someone chooses to disbelieve? Can't it just be the person themself that chooses whether to believe or disbelieve primarily?

 

[E.C.]

I could've sworn it was the spirit that made us alive, the soul by a Christian understanding is what makes us unique and individual human personalities and identities. The soul exists without the spirit, since it is immortal, the spirit is just what animates the body with a soul intertwined in a sense.

Depends on if you are asking a Protestant or Roman Catholic vs. asking someone from an Eastern Christian background.

Why does it always have to be someone else that's responsible for why someone chooses to disbelieve? Can't it just be the person themself that chooses whether to believe or disbelieve primarily?

It is the person's responsibility when it comes to belief or unbelief, but it is still of matter of influence that lead to it.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

If the soul is simply our mental faculties, then it becomes the difficulty whether you could demonstrate how the mind body problem is solved with regards to the brain as the primary locus of our personality, etc.

And I didn't deny an influence from others, but the primary choice should be the individual's apart from pressure of others. Their leading to belief or disbelief shouldn't be primarily influenced by others, but by their own experience.

 

[E.C.]

If the soul is simply our mental faculties, then it becomes the difficulty whether you could demonstrate how the mind body problem is solved with regards to the brain as the primary locus of our personality, etc.

Eh? Sorry, I just got out of a college class, so my brain is a little fried at the moment

And I didn't deny an influence from others, but the primary choice should be the individual's apart from pressure of others. Their leading to belief or disbelief shouldn't be primarily influenced by others, but by their own experience.

Here we agree, but one shouldn't discount influences of any sort.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Eh? Sorry, I just got out of a college class, so my brain is a little fried at the moment

Put it this way: if we've demonstrated scientifically that there is a significant connection between the function of our memory, personality and identity to the functionality and stability of our brain, how can it be that our personality, memory and identity are anything more than primarily how our brain, interacting with the environment and culture around us, is affected and adjusts individual genetic dispositions? In short, why believe that the mind is anything more than a epiphenomenon of the brain, a projection of a physical organ?

Here we agree, but one shouldn't discount influences of any sort.

I didn't discount the influences, but I put them in a proper prioritized order. The individual should make the final decision, not others for that individual. The influence is there, but it shouldn't be a matter of serving others as opposed to esteeming yourself in some signification.

 

[Upisoft]

The soul is what causes us to live. Without the soul than we would not be alive.

Satan is responsible, yes, but he tends to work in stages. He's a tricky fellow I'll admit, but he tends to gradually entice people into disbelief over a period of time. He'll start with irrelevance and then come doubts and then comes outright disbelief. Yet there must be somebody in your soul that is keeping you from disbelief. That in itself is worthy of looking into.

I'm pretty sure that our body has something to do with our living as well.

Do you say that it is not Satan who makes me doubt atheistic position? It feels the same when I doubt theistic position. My feelings tell me that either both are my own thoughts or both are due to a single entity (Satan or something else).

 

[E.C.]

Put it this way: if we've demonstrated scientifically that there is a significant connection between the function of our memory, personality and identity to the functionality and stability of our brain, how can it be that our personality, memory and identity are anything more than primarily how our brain, interacting with the environment and culture around us, is affected and adjusts individual genetic dispositions? In short, why believe that the mind is anything more than a epiphenomenon of the brain, a projection of a physical organ?

The mind is the mind. The soul is a different story. At this point I think we may either be talking past each other or thinking two different things.

I didn't discount the influences, but I put them in a proper prioritized order. The individual should make the final decision, not others for that individual. The influence is there, but it shouldn't be a matter of serving others as opposed to esteeming yourself in some signification.

Here we're in agreement. It was just the wording before sounded as if you were ready to not consider the effects of influences and/or influences themselves.

 

[E.C.]

I'm pretty sure that our body has something to do with our living as well.

Certainly, but the body only lasts for so long. The soul lasts forever.

Do you say that it is not Satan who makes me doubt atheistic position? It feels the same when I doubt theistic position.

Perhaps. I'm not expert in that area. Sorry.

My feelings tell me that either both are my own thoughts or both are due to a single entity (Satan or something else).

Maybe a little bit of both.

 

[Upisoft]

Certainly, but the body only lasts for so long. The soul lasts forever.

That is what I find quite depressing idea. Don't we have free-will? Can't we just decide that we want the end to come? Living forever could be quite boring.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

The mind is the mind. The soul is a different story. At this point I think we may either be talking past each other or thinking two different things.

To me you seem to be complicating what is already a sufficiently complex idea. The psyche in Greek thought was technically both the mind and the soul. Our thinking qualities were what distinguished us from irrational animals. Therefore, it is not unusual today to still think of our soul as equivalent to our mind. The only distinction that exists now is that the soul is not unlike a disembodied mind that survives the death of the body, but not every believer in the soul is even like that. Some of them demand that the soul must be bodily and yet immortal, etc.

 

[oi_antz]

I've read it and I can't understand why God didn't prevent it. I see they have believed in the enemy of God, but why they were able to do so in first place? If God have created us perfect, we would be unable to believe anyone else. What is the point to create what is not perfect?

This is a hard concept to understand without presuming that "freedom" means just that. Without the opportunity to disobey there would be no value in obedience, and this particular nature of free-will is what God deemed necessary to make us His perfect children by our own desire rather than His force.

Adam and Eve had insufficient foresight to see all that would happen to the world through disobedience, but after time has run it's course then every human will know the true value of obedience and I guess we can trust Jesus to determine those who belong to Him who truly are capable of knowing better than making the same mistake again, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the new earth, God places the same tree there and we will all know that it really really should not be touched!

Do you really comprehend what happened when we gained a conscience? We were changed from being innocent to matters of good and evil to being facilitators of good and evil, and since the human is plagued by selfishness that only God can overcome, the human was not capable of administrating good and evil without some sort of partiality, hence why there is sin in the world (from greed), and hence why God has decided sinners must die, because sin destroys the harmony and perfection of His world and imposes suffering on His beloved creation. He wants for us to learn through experience, the value of good over evil, which is why as a Christian we are constantly taught of our sinful nature and expected to rectify it by repentance.

Another thing, since you live in a world with sin it is understandable you don't fully love being here, hence why you are tempted to think you might not like to live forever. However, when you come to live in a perfect world where there is no sin, you'll have no doubts about wanting to be there forever.

 

[JasperJackson]

I don't know what soul is. If it is the thing that makes me wonder then it is healed when I accept the agnostic position. I feel the same way when I try to believe in God and when I try to believe in no God(atheism). And that is also puzzling me. oi_antz said the Satan is responsible for my doubts, but why Satan will not allow me to disbelieve God? He should be very happy with that.

Your soul is more than just a feeling. There are many things that affect our feelings. Also, Satan is probably not the only person at work in you at the moment. It's possible that God is drawing you to himself, making you resist the atheistic position.

The Bible stimulates me no more than the Qur'an. All Holy Books of the world religions contain a lot of wisdom mixed with a lot of confusion, at least that's how it looks to me.

Yes, other religions' holy books do contain wisdom. But that doesn’t mean you should or shouldn’t believe them. Back to your OP, for me, the reasons why I believe is because I believe the Bible stands up to scrutiny. It was written by 40 people over a period of 1500 years, yet is completely consistent. The main message of Christianity is that Jesus (God himself) came to earth lived a perfect sin-free life among us and was crucified to take the punishment we deserve for our sins. Three days later he rose from the dead to prove his claims that he was God. So as I read the 4 Gospels I have to think to myself did the writers just make this up? There’s so much detail. Could the story of Jesus really have got off the ground if it wasn’t all true? I just can’t see how that’s possible. There are other similar reasons why I believe and all those pieces put together give me faith in God. So, I encourage you to read the Gospels and also the epistles written by Paul and ask yourself ‘what is the best explanation for what is written in these books’.