Reason to believe

[Upisoft]

Is there any reason to believe in Christian God? I mean, a positive constructive reason. Not something like "What you gonna lose?"

 

[oi_antz]

Is there any reason to believe in Christian God? I mean, a positive constructive reason. Not something like "What you gonna lose?"

Yes, it is not about what you don't want to lose, typical theology states that we lose everything we have when we leave the world. Rather, Christianity teaches we can gain a life with God, if that is what we so desire. We each have to discover our reason for wanting to know the Lord, mine in particular was the fact that I love life so much, admiring life in all it's wonderful forms, even the commonly despised fly can be loved! So in my desire to thank the Lord for the life I love so much, I was drawn to Christianity to find that God is real and we can even get to know Him as a person before we depart the material world. As I say though, we each have to discover our own personal reason for wanting to know God, but if you want to come at Him with blame as many people do, then it just won't work. You actually have to come in love!

 

[Upisoft]

I see. You wanted something from God, i.e. to gain life with Him. So, if I don't want anything from God (to blame Him or to thank Him) I do not need to seek Him, right? I mean I'm agnostic. For me existence of God is something of no importance, or it used to be this way for some time. I was not always agnostic. I was in constant movement between non-religion based belief and atheism. I finally found peace when I decided to leave the God question out of my life. But sometimes that peace is disturbed for one or another reason. So now I'm asking questions again. And I really can't find any reason to want something from God.

 

[oi_antz]

I see. You wanted something from God, i.e. to gain life with Him. So, if I don't want anything from God (to blame Him or to thank Him) I do not need to seek Him, right? I mean I'm agnostic. For me existence of God is something of no importance, or it used to be this way for some time. I was not always agnostic. I was in constant movement between non-religion based belief and atheism. I finally found peace when I decided to leave the God question out of my life. But sometimes that peace is disturbed for one or another reason. So now I'm asking questions again. And I really can't find any reason to want something from God.

Actually, I wanted to be able to thank God and the fact He became real to me was a very welcome surprise!

Yes, you have the freedom to not pursue God if you want to make that decision. The way I understand the afterlife is there are two distinct destinations. One is to be in the presence of God (heaven), which is the place He created for Himself and all who love Him, the other is to be out of His presence (Outer darkness or hell), to which there are varying degrees of contentment (or discontentment since they don't have the perfection of God), but all equally without the presence of God because that is what those people decided they wanted in life.

The destination we go to is determined by the decision we make in this life. For those who want to be with God in heaven and choose to follow Jesus, that is their destination. For those who don't want to be with God, their decision is likewise respected, and then depending upon the nature of the person's heart, they may be placed in various extents of outer-heaven.

So this world is like a garden where our souls are the seeds for eternal life. Some of them will grow into the branches of the vine of God, while others will choose to reject God's offer and thereby not even desire to enter heaven, because being in heaven means to worship the Lord continuously, praising Him for all His perfection and all that we love about Him.

I'm not so sure outer darkness or even hell are punishments for sin, but more likely the place where God determines appropriate to your heart's desire. Murderers with murderers, thieves with thieves, demon worshipers with demon worshipers, agnostics with agnostics. That's how I'm understanding it at present, but in any case, being outside heaven which God has created to be the perfect place for Himself, us and angels, it is bound to be less fulfilling and the stories in the Bible show that people are always living in agony for their decision.

 

[oi_antz]

Having said that about the afterlife, there is a final judgment at the great white throne where there is a clear punishment for those who didn't act Christ-like on earth:

Matthew 25:31-46 - Passage Lookup - New International Version © 2010 - BibleGateway.com

I understand this is what happens at the end of the world, before the new heavens and new earth are created, and then God's people will live forever in the new earth with Jesus as their king.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Yeah, you seemed to leave out what the exact judgment of those who aren't "believers". As I recall, it's a lake of blood and fire. Pretty stark contrast to the notion of God "respecting" our choices.

 

[oi_antz]

Yeah, you seemed to leave out what the exact judgment of those who aren't "believers". As I recall, it's a lake of blood and fire. Pretty stark contrast to the notion of God "respecting" our choices.

Yes, as I understand it, the places heaven and hell are holding places for the departed souls until the final judgment, I think we need to make that distinction, that while awaiting judgment we are not actually punished by the lake of fire, but sent to our appointed place where there will be torment and anguish at the reality of what awaits us. For those who belong to God, the ultimate destination is a new earth, which resembles God's vision for earth before the fall, in which there is no death and God roams the garden, sharing it with His beloved human.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

So basically God just tortures people by making them realize that if they're not in bliss they will eventually suffer the physical agony that "mirrors" the psychological agony they feel at the eventual physical agony they will suffer? That is the essence of torture, inflicting pain with no good reason beyond wanting somone to suffer either psychological or physical pain and also watching the person suffer at the possibility of future pain of either form.

 

[Upisoft]

I have more questions now, if you don't mind.

If such place(heaven) exists and we can be there, why aren't we already there? If we are children of God, doesn't He want the best for us?

Also, you said that the people rejecting God will not go to heaven. I think I do not reject God, at least while I'm in agnostic mood. Isn't it possible to change my opinion later? What if I decide to believe in Christian God and then find out I had to believe in Hindu God? Isn't the agnostic position best one possible? I'm not a murderer, I don't do bad things. Why I can't go in heaven(if it exists).

 

[oi_antz]

So basically God just tortures people by making them realize that if they're not in bliss they will eventually suffer the physical agony that "mirrors" the psychological agony they feel at the eventual physical agony they will suffer? That is the essence of torture, inflicting pain with no good reason beyond wanting somone to suffer either psychological or physical pain and also watching the person suffer at the possibility of future pain of either form.

It's not God who torments us, as mentioned being outside of heaven is to be out of His presence. It is the human mind which torments us with regret, remembering every time we rejected the opportunity to believe. It's not that hard to believe in Jesus you know, all you have to do is accept that you might be wrong and He might be right! Have you ever read the gospel and seen whether you disagree with Jesus?? I would wage that your grudge is based upon what other's think rather than what Jesus thinks, so if you could produce a passage which says Jesus is wrong then you may be able to identify why you think your standard of righteousness is apparently above that of God.

We can even inflict ourselves with torment on earth, but as long as we have the option of believing God, it's not quite set in stone because once we accept Jesus' forgiveness our sinful nature is shed giving life to the new Christ-like nature. There's really not anything more reasonable to expect of God than what He has already done for us, the decision rests solely on ourself, and it really is something to be taken seriously, that's quite obvious when you start thinking you are better than God.

 

[oi_antz]

I have more questions now, if you don't mind.

If such place(heaven) exists and we can be there, why aren't we already there? If we are children of God, doesn't He want the best for us?

Also, you said that the people rejecting God will not go to heaven. I think I do not reject God, at least while I'm in agnostic mood. Isn't it possible to change my opinion later? What if I decide to believe in Christian God and then find out I had to believe in Hindu God? Isn't the agnostic position best one possible? I'm not a murderer, I don't do bad things. Why I can't go in heaven(if it exists).

Well it is generally taught that although we may hold high standards of ourselves in terms of morals and ethics, God establishes the supreme standard of righteousness which cannot be achieved by any human since we have the capacity and tendency to trespass another from time to time (does your conscience not remind you of something?). Let me give you one thing, this is from the Ten Commandments:

Exodus 20:3 (New International Version © 2010)
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

A false god can be anything we put before God, and in the case of a non-believer, it is ourselves we worship first and foremost. Once you come to acknowledge God for who He is (the creator), then you have overcome this sin!

So, you may think you're being righteous in not committing to any particular religion, but according to God (who is the One and only creator), if you put someone or something else above Him (in this case, your agnosticism), then you are indeed committing this sin. We are naturally incapable of being perfect according to God unless we come to understand and accept what He expects of us, and even then it is impossible without the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives to guide us and correct us when we are tempted.

It seems you're stuck here on the same hurdle that any non-believer faces, in that they don't quite accept God for who He truly is and instead think that your expectations of God are more important than His expectations of you.

 

[Key]

Is there any reason to believe in Christian God? I mean, a positive constructive reason. Not something like "What you gonna lose?"

What do I gain for believing? Well to be honest, not much. I don't really gain anything "Believing" in God as even devils believe in God.

What I do gain, is a better life by following the teaching of my Lord. Jesus is about living, about life, about here and now, and he offers redemption and freedom.

So, what do you gain by believing? About the same measure you might gain if you believed there was life on other planets: Nothing tangible.

What do you Gain by Following what Jesus taught: Everything, a life you never knew you could have. In a word: Freedom.

God Bless

 

[Upisoft]

I don't understand why you say "no other gods" means "anything else". Isn't a "god" an omnipotent(omni- etc.) being who is like father(or mother) to us?

Also I still don't understand why we are not in heaven already. We can decide to stay or go, can't we?

 

[oi_antz]

I don't understand why you say "no other gods" means "anything else". Isn't a "god" an omnipotent(omni- etc.) being who is like father(or mother) to us?

No, there is nothing other than God who is omnipotent or omnipresent. A false god is anything we worship who is not the One true God, which can be an idol, a human, a demon, a rock etc etc.

Also I still don't understand why we are not in heaven already. We can decide to stay or go, can't we?

It is not for us to decide if and when we go to heaven, that decision belongs to God the Father. Originally heaven was for God and His angels. The earth was created for earthlings such as the human. However, when Jesus was resurrected, He was taken into heaven, because it is the only reasonable place to put Him while we wait for the events of time to transpire.

Do remember that no human is without sin, so no human is deserving of a place in heaven, so heaven is not even guaranteed to Christians, it is only through our faith in the goodness of God and that Jesus is the truth that we believe we will be with Christ until the great day of judgment.

Matthew 19
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

So although humanly, entering heaven is impossible, by the sheer might of God's mercy and love, if we truly do choose to repent from our sinful ways then it is His will that we will be forgiven and granted salvation. Notice you can't fake it, you can't buy it, your heart must be sincere in wanting to love and honor the Lord so it is natural to have to address our grudges and seek to understand and accept God's point of view if we are to convert from being without God to being with Him.

 

[Upisoft]

Everything, a life you never knew you could have. In a word: Freedom.

The problem is if I go ether way trying have hard belief that God does (or not) exist, I am constantly tormented by doubts I could be wrong. When I settled to agnosticism these doubts appear very rarely. I feel free when I have no doubts.

 

[oi_antz]

The problem is if I go ether way trying have hard belief that God does (or not) exist, I am constantly tormented by doubts I could be wrong. When I settled to agnosticism these doubts appear very rarely. I feel free when I have no doubts.

Revelation 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

As long as we are playing into the hands of the enemy, he will not bother us. When we choose to be on side with God however, we have made an enemy of Satan. You need to put Satan in his place, which is under your heel. Once you demonstrate unfaltering faith in God then Satan will not bother you so much. As long as there is a hint of potential to sway your faith, he will not desist.

John 10:10 (New International Version © 2010)

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I don't understand why Satan hates the human so much, I think it is because he hates God that he seeks to destroy everything that belongs to God.

Jesus came to define those who belong to God from those who don't, we all have the same right to choose which side we belong to and while there is only one message of truth from Jesus, there are countless lies that the enemy may use to argue against it.

 

[Upisoft]

No, there is nothing other than God who is omnipotent or omnipresent. A false god is anything we worship who is not the One true God, which can be an idol, a human, a demon, a rock etc etc.

It is not for us to decide if and when we go to heaven, that decision belongs to God the Father. Originally heaven was for God and His angels.

Notice you can't fake it, you can't buy it, your heart must be sincere in wanting to love and honor the Lord so it is natural to have to address our grudges and seek to understand and accept God's point of view if we are to convert from being without God to being with Him.

Well, I definitely worship nothing. Even my agnosticism is only a world-view, helpful one for the moment.

I agree that it is His decision. I wonder why He created unworthy creatures like us. He already had the angels, right? He could created us worthy like them. It is obvious He can do better.

It is quite hard to be sincere if you have constant doubts. Why it is so hard to believe?

 

[Upisoft]

As long as we are playing into the hands of the enemy, he will not bother us. When we choose to be on side with God however, we have made an enemy of Satan. You need to put Satan in his place, which is under your heel. Once you demonstrate unfaltering faith in God then Satan will not bother you so much. As long as there is a hint of potential to sway your faith, he will not desist.

I don't understand why Satan hates the human so much, I think it is because he hates God that he seeks to destroy everything that belongs to God.

Jesus came to define those who belong to God from those who don't, we all have the same right to choose which side we belong to and while there is only one message of truth from Jesus, there are countless lies that the enemy may use to argue against it.

I don't like my mind being controlled by someone. I prefer my thoughts to be my own. So, you say Satan can change my thoughts. If such entity exists and if I finally start believing in Jesus, how I will know that it was not Satan who is trying to keep me away from say Hinduism? In other words how can I be sure my belief is genuine and not manipulated?

 

[oi_antz]

Well, I definitely worship nothing. Even my agnosticism is only a world-view, helpful one for the moment.

I agree that it is His decision. I wonder why He created unworthy creatures like us. He already had the angels, right? He could created us worthy like them. It is obvious He can do better.

It is quite hard to be sincere if you have constant doubts. Why it is so hard to believe?

Well even the angels suffered a rebellion against God so angels have just as much responsibility as we do to honor God. Don't you remember the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? There was no sin in the world originally, it is only when the human decided they would want to be "like God, knowing good and evil" that the conscience came into play. Before that time there was no conscience, no concept of good and evil, only innocence. And there was no death:

Romans 5
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

...

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

I believe that time once set in motion must run it's course, and as God deems fit, not as we might come to expect of God. The whole problem we have as unbelievers is coming to terms with the fact that this is God's world, He decides what is acceptable or not. When we differ in our opinion about what His decision should be, we are demonstrating that we just can't see it from His point of view. We are so self-absorbed in our own point of view that we put ourselves above God, but it is a fact that God does have a point of view, and His decisions are ultimately justified by the absolute knowledge and insight that only He can have! I think what you need to do is inspect what you already know about Christianity and seek within yourself to understand the grudges you hold against God. By identifying your grudges you can take action to understand His reasons for the decisions He made, and when you do come to see His point of view then you'll appreciate that He truly is perfect and there is no other way that would have resulted in the perfection of salvation. Don't forget what happened in the times of Noah, God was ready to cancel life on earth altogether, and it was only because of the very slim possibility that there was just one family on earth who still honored God that He allowed time to continue, convinced that the human wasn't completely beyond redemption.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't like my mind being controlled by someone. I prefer my thoughts to be my own. So, you say Satan can change my thoughts. If such entity exists and if I finally start believing in Jesus, how I will know that it was not Satan who is trying to keep me away from say Hinduism? In other words how can I be sure my belief is genuine and not manipulated?

Jesus gives us the right to think freely, this is what I came to realize when I was converted, that having the truth defined and thereby accepting that truth, I was liberated to know the wild nature of the thoughts that can come to mind, and by knowing that Christianity was the absolute resolve of truth, then I had all the freedom to consider the wild thoughts while also having the peace of mind that I would always reduce them down to the ultimate truth that is defined by God, thereby expanding my understanding by thinking alone! And there is no end to coming to know the ultimate truth of God, it grows continuously day by day. How long has it been since you read the Bible? Haven't you found that the Bible stimulates you to think beyond what you already know?