Reason to believe

[oi_antz]

oi_antz, you accuse me of not reading the verses you quote for me. However this is not what happens. I read not only the verse you quote, I read the whole chapter to grasp the context of the story told.

And the chapter Revelation 12 begins with a woman in heaven. A pregnant woman that was about to give birth. In pain. I hope you know what that means.

So, when I asked you what is Satan doing in Garden of Eden before the fall, you answer me with a story that clearly begins after the fall. It is clear that you don't pay attention to my questions.



--------------------to all------------------

I'm tired of all this. I'm going to tell to all of you how I'm feeling now. After so many posts I feel that you cannot give me a reason to believe. I feel that you want me to do a leap of faith instead of a rational decision.

In Genesis 3 Satan, complete stranger, tempted Eve. She made a leap of faith and tasted the forbidden fruit.

I'm feeling like I'm in Genesis 3. I've met complete strangers that want me to make a leap of faith. I'm even told that I'll gain knowledge (all will become completely clear to me) and I'll know what God knows (I'll share His viewpoint). I even see that the tree and fruit are all good (the Bible is pleasing food for the soul, I can clearly see that), and they are also desirable for gaining wisdom.

What is the nest step? To reach and take a fruit and eat it.

Will I do like Eve did? No.
I will not make unreasonable leap of faith.

There is no point to continue the discussion at this moment. Maybe after few years I'll try again.

Well you've made a decision based on the obvious incapacity for a human to explain to you what only God can reveal to you. I know from having studied communications, that no matter how many words we write or how long we continue to discuss, we'll never be able to share exactly the same comprehension, to share the same thought. The closest we can come is to express our thought with words and action to paint a picture in the other person's mind.

Comprehension is actually a result of data streaming through sensory organs and being related according to our memory (past experiences), so given that we have different experiences we are certainly destined to make sense of the data we receive in a different way.

However, as I said, spiritual communication can overcome this, particularly if you really do ask God for truth and prepare yourself to accept it, then there'll be no misunderstanding of what He means. It's not that easy to do though, as you already know and I know too. So if you're expecting your fellow man to come up with the magic answer which will enlighten you, you're looking in the wrong place. Hearing about God has absolutely nothing at all to do with hearing from God Himself.

Anyway, you've found that your approach is not working for you and I'm not surprised, Jesus has already told us that we need to humble ourselves to God as a child to learn from Him, and you have refused. In my experience you can't belong to both Satan and God, you must commit fully to God if you want to belong to Him. So it's certainly not a decision you can make by just asking for a reason from your fellow man, you'll actually need to discover your own reason for coming to God and God has said since the wickedness in Noah's time that we have 120 years for this, any longer is just prolonging the suffering due to the sinful nature of man.

Regarding your question, I am sorry I misunderstood you, I had read that you were asking why Satan is allowed here on Earth "and not a cloud of vapor", and Revelations 12 sums that up nicely. However you have clarified that your question was what was Satan doing in the garden of Eden?

Genesis 3:1
The Fall
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. [...]

So the serpent was the craftiest creature, it was in His nature to exploit the limits of truth. I think if you consider what would have gone through the mind of the craftiest creature on earth it might have seemed that without him to play the antagonist, there is no context for the protagonist. But in doing what he did, he lied and became a murderer, so he suffered the most intense curse of the lot. The human did have a hand to play in it though, because there is no clear motive except for greed wanting to promote themselves to God's position, well that as we have discovered just cannot happen, even if we do decide to believe something other than what God tells us.

 

[oi_antz]

I even see that the tree and fruit are all good (the Bible is pleasing food for the soul, I can clearly see that), and they are also desirable for gaining wisdom.

What is the nest step? To reach and take a fruit and eat it.

Will I do like Eve did? No.
I will not make unreasonable leap of faith.

Regarding this, I know what you are thinking, it's yet another lie that the enemy presented to me to prevent me from coming to the truth. The Bible is not the forbidden fruit, nor is it the mark of the beast! These lies are examples of Satan's aggressive attempts to keep you from turning away from him and toward God. You ultimately have to decide whether God is the better person than Satan, it might take a few more years as you suspect, and even then there is no guarantee that you'll be able to humble yourself to accept that you can learn what God want's you to know, it really depends how much effort you put into deciding that you do really want to know God the magnificent creator and esteem him above every creature he has made (which includes yourself). No other person is ever going to sit on God's throne, but you can sit on the throne of your heart as long as you believe that is best

 

[eugler]

Regarding this, I know what you are thinking, it's yet another lie that the enemy presented to me to prevent me from coming to the truth. The Bible is not the forbidden fruit, nor is it the mark of the beast! These lies are examples of Satan's aggressive attempts to keep you from turning away from him and toward God. You ultimately have to decide whether God is the better person than Satan, it might take a few more years as you suspect, and even then there is no guarantee that you'll be able to humble yourself to accept that you can learn what God want's you to know, it really depends how much effort you put into deciding that you do really want to know God the magnificent creator and esteem him above every creature he has made (which includes yourself). No other person is ever going to sit on God's throne, but you can sit on the throne of your heart as long as you believe that is best

Hm, somehow it seems like a metaphor and not a lie. But are you saying that Satan himself is putting these "lies" into people's heads?

 

[oi_antz]

Hm, somehow it seems like a metaphor and not a lie. But are you saying that Satan himself is putting these "lies" into people's heads?

Yes I am saying that eugler, God says He doesn't lie, and when He said Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and that access to the garden of Eden was afterwards guarded with a flaming sword, that is what it means. Any idea suggesting something to contest what God says is a direct lie from the enemy, and you need to choose which person you will listen to. With a serious matter of living to God's favor or not, it does require some careful consideration about who you will trust. Perhaps you should read the following verse again, it describes why some people cannot hear what God says:

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

 

[Upisoft]

Regarding this, I know what you are thinking, it's yet another lie that the enemy presented to me to prevent me from coming to the truth. The Bible is not the forbidden fruit, nor is it the mark of the beast! These lies are examples of Satan's aggressive attempts to keep you from turning away from him and toward God. You ultimately have to decide whether God is the better person than Satan, it might take a few more years as you suspect, and even then there is no guarantee that you'll be able to humble yourself to accept that you can learn what God want's you to know, it really depends how much effort you put into deciding that you do really want to know God the magnificent creator and esteem him above every creature he has made (which includes yourself). No other person is ever going to sit on God's throne, but you can sit on the throne of your heart as long as you believe that is best

You don't understand what I'm telling you and what I'm asking, do you?

You'll not tempt me with sitting on a throne. You must avoid using temptation as an argument. I'm not Eve. It will not work with me.

The Bible is, speaking metaphorically, the forbidden fruit. You use whole arsenal of temptations to persuade me to "taste" it.

I really want to know God, but I suspect that if I do what you tell me to do I'll be knowing someone else. Someone who uses temptation.

 

[oi_antz]

You don't understand what I'm telling you and what I'm asking, do you?

You'll not tempt me with sitting on a throne. You must avoid using temptation as an argument. I'm not Eve. It will not work with me.

The Bible is, speaking metaphorically, the forbidden fruit. You use whole arsenal of temptations to persuade me to "taste" it.

I really want to know God, but I suspect that if I do what you tell me to do I'll be knowing someone else. Someone who uses temptation.

Contrarily, I do understand what you are saying and it is downright wrong. Metaphor or not, you're reading a meaning from it that isn't intended. God puts it in plain writing that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit even well before the Bible was written, and the way to the garden is guarded to prevent us from going back there. The Bible is God's testimony of events that led to the present day, and what is still to come. Like it or not, we each have a throne on our heart where we may choose to sit ourselves or Jesus, it's a decision you make for yourself, and no-one can force you to change your mind. God also has a throne, there are many people who wish they would sit on it, and in a sense when we don't grant Him recognition of His supremacy we are saying He doesn't deserve His throne. Finally, no-one can hijack your prayers! If you do truly worship the One true God then there's nothing to fear for thinking you may be worshiping someone else. The Bible makes this clear, all we have to do is decide whether the God of the Holy Bible is the One worth trusting, and since the Bible teaches that Jesus is the human representation of God to earth, a good place to begin is to scrutinize what we know of His life and decide whether He appears to be right, or whether He appears to be flawed. Once you know that you can trust Him then you may seek to gain the message He brought to humanity, which is a life eternal with God, accepting the Holy Spirit as the counselor who teaches us and reminds us of what Jesus said.

John 14:26 (New International Version)
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

But you must seek genuinely, as it is, every time you look at it you are being tempted to reject it. Once you are prepared to accept it as being the official testimony of God, then you may be in a position to ask God for the Holy Spirit in your life, seeking to learn what God wants us to know.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Let me start by saying that I know Upisoft from another forum that we both participated in and that he recently PM'd me and asked for my opinion on the questions that he's raised on this thread. I thought about answering him privately, but then I figured that it might be best to just answer him publicly, hopefully for the sake of all. Here goes:

Upisoft: I read the entire thread and, rather than go through it and pull out certain quotes, I'll just address what seem to be your biggest questions/concerns. For starters, you seem to be greatly concerned (and we all should be) about the origin of "your" thoughts. I put the word "your" in quotes deliberately, because you're concerned as to whether or not "your" thoughts are truly "yours" and "yours" alone. If I'm understanding oi antz's answers correctly, then it seems as if he's saying that thoughts originate in the spiritual realm. If this is indeed his position, then I fully agree. Think of the word "inspiration" for a moment, if you would. Here is the origin of the word:

Online Etymology Dictionary

inspiration c.1300, "immediate influence of God or a god," especially that under which the holy books were written, from O.Fr. inspiration, from L.L. inspirationem (nom. inspiratio), from L. inspiratus, pp. of inspirare "inspire, inflame, blow into," from in-"in" + spirare "to breathe" (see spirit).

When something is "inspired", as in our thoughts, I think that it can rightly be said that it is spiritually influenced. In other words, a "spirit", whether God Himself or any number of "other gods/demons/evil spirits", speaks to our minds and we, in turn, have the option of either giving heed to what is spoken or to refuse/rebuke it. I'm personally convinced that this is exactly what Paul was addressing when he wrote:

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." (II Corinthians 10:3-6)

Here, Paul not only stated that we are in a war, but also that the battlefield for such a war is in the realm of the spirit. For this purpose, he clearly states that the weapons which we use in such a war are not carnal or fleshly, but rather spiritual. In other words, we require spiritual weapons in order to fight against spirits who would influence us in a way/manner other than what God desires for us. Also, it is quite clear that these spiritual weapons that Christians receive from God deal with "imaginations" (the realm of the mind/thoughts) and "every thought" (self-explanatory). If we go back to the garden of Eden and what transpired there, then I'm quite confident that we'll see such "inspiration" in action. For starters, God Himself, Who is a Spirit (John 4:24), clearly instructs Adam (who apparently relayed this instruction to Eve, for she mentioned it in her response to Satan a little later on) not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, telling him that in the day that he eats thereof, he will surely die. This is one manner of "inspiration" to which Eve has the option (free will) of heeding to/yielding to. At the same time, Satan also has his say and tells Eve, "Yea, hath God said" and offers the first recorded challenge/question to God's authority. Upisoft, I simply cannot understand how you don't see "free will" at play here. Eve has two different voices, telling her two contrasting things, and she clearly (to me, anyway) has the option (free will) of which to yield/submit herself to. At this point, I would like to suggest to you that NONE of "your" thoughts are solely "yours" and "yours" alone. We live in a spiritual realm and we will consequentially constantly be "inspired" to yield/submit to either God Himself or any plethora of "other gods/demons/evil spirits" who seek to lead us astray. We can see such dual "inspiration" involved clearly in the following account from scripture as well:

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." (Matthew 16:13-23)

Here, we clearly see Peter receiving "inspiration" from two totally different sources or from two totally different Gods/gods. On the one hand, Peter receives "inspiration" from God the Father and recognizes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Please hear Jesus' response:

"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: FOR FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."

This is the crux of the whole matter. NO ONE, BUT GOD HIMSELF, will ever be able to give you the answers that you seem to be seeking on this thread. You need to have a personal encounter with God in which He reveals to you, by His Spirit, that Jesus is indeed the Christ. Elsewhere, along these same lines, we read:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (I Corinthians 12:3)

You need a revelation from the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit that Jesus is indeed the Lord...no man will ever be able to convince you of such. In fact, if a man (or woman) alone can convince you of such, then you're in trouble from the get go. Christianity was never intended to be just the embracing of some sort of "facts" or "mindsets". No, Christianity was always intended to be a vital union between two parties, God and man, through Jesus Christ. God wants for you to know Him PERSONALLY. In fact, He desires to dwell in you by His Spirit and for your body to be the very temple of the Holy Ghost. In other words, and I hope that this doesn't offend you, you're putting impossible demands upon forum members here in seeking to have any of them/us convince you of God's existence. This convincing, my friend (and I am your friend), can only ultimately come from/by God Himself. Anyhow, going back to Jesus' encounter with Peter as recorded in Matthew chapter 16, we also see that Peter received "inspiration" from Satan as well. Let's look at that again, briefly:

"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

I think that it's pretty safe to assume that when we read how Jesus was "shewing his disciples" certain things that He was, in fact, seeking to give them further revelation on what had already been foretold in the Hebrew scriptures/Old Testament. In other words, the "sufferings" that Jesus told them about had already been prophesied in the Old Testament scriptures. With this in mind, when Peter rebuked Jesus and told him that "this shall not be unto thee", he was, in effect, going against the already revealed Word of God. Gee, where have we seen this same scenario before? That's right...way back in the garden of Eden when Satan said, "Yea, hath God said". For this purpose, Jesus responded by saying to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men". Now, obviously, Peter is not Satan, but rather he was being influenced or "inspired" by Satan at that particular moment. Being in the aforementioned spiritual war, when those "thoughts" or "imaginations" came to Peter, he should have cast them down and not yielded/submitted to them. Anyhow, I hope that you can see the two opposing sides at work here and how "inspiration" fits into all of this. Basically, what I'm saying is this:

There will never (until the new heavens and new earth come, that is) be a time when "your" thoughts will be solely "yours". You live in a spiritual world and there will always be opposing Spirits/spirits vying for "your" thought life. That's just the way that it is.

Secondly, you seem perplexed that Satan was allowed to appear in the garden of Eden in the first place to tempt Eve. Hopefully, this following analogy (which I've used before, elsewhere) will help you to see things from a different perspective.

I'm a married man. I'm married to a woman (Sorry, but you have to mention that these days), but she's not the only woman on the face of the earth. Since there are somewhere around 6 billion people on the earth at this time, let's just say, for the sake of discussion/argument, that around 1.5 billion of them may be adult females or women. If this is indeed the case (the numbers aren't exact, but my point remains), then that means that I have 1.5 billion "other women" who can "tempt" me away from my devoted affections towards my wife. If any one of them succeeds, then should I/could I RIGHTLY complain that these women should have never existed in the first place? Do you get my point? If I TRULY love my wife and if I'm TRULY devoted to her and to her alone, then it makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOVER how many "other women" there are out there. Consequently, if there is a flaw in MY OWN CHARACTER, then I shouldn't seek to pass the blame for that flaw off on others. My point? If I'm TRULY devoted to God, then it matters not in the least how many "other gods" there are out there ...NONE OF THEM will ever get my affections.

Thirdly, you asked if Adam and Eve could sin in a "perfect environment" in the garden of Eden, then why won't we be able to sin in heaven. For starters, whoever said that their "environment" was "perfect"? It's true that God ORIGINALLY saw everything that He made and that it was good, but things had changed drastically since then. There are many Bible scholars who believe (and I agree) that we get a glimpse of Satan's downfall in the book of Ezekiel, chapter 28. There, we read where God instructs Ezekiel to take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus. In reading, however, we recognize that God is not only talking to the physical king, but also to the spirit that has been influencing him. Here is the account:

"Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD: Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." (Ezekiel 28:11-17)

Continued in next post...

 

[Ih8s8n]

Continued from previous post...

God is clearly speaking to more than just an earthly king, for He twice refers to the "covering cherub". This terminology is interesting because when God gave the instructions for the building of the earthly tabernacle to Moses, He actually gave Him an earthly pattern of the true tabernacle that is in heaven (Hebrews 8:5, 9:23-24). In other words, when God instructed Moses to make the ark of the covenant with two COVERING CHERUBS above it, it is to be understood that there are two COVERING CHERUBS in the true tabernacle which is in heaven. It's quite probable, then, that this "covering cherub" was one of the original "covering cherubs" in heaven "TILL INIQUITY WAS FOUND IN THEE". In other words, it is quite possible that Satan was originally one of the two "covering cherubs" in heaven until he sinned. He was originally "perfect in his ways from the day that he was created", but then he sinned. When Satan's "heart was lifted up because of his beauty" (PRIDE!), he also "corrupted his wisdom". It is this same "corrupt wisdom" with which Satan deceives men/women/children across the globe today. Basically, what I'm saying is this:

The "perfect environment" that you spoke of wasn't "perfect" at all. God originally made everything and saw that it was good, but Satan later rebelled against God and he (and the other spirits that followed in his rebellion) is now the one who negatively influences/inspires people across the globe. Once again, he only negatively influences/inspires those who yield to him. As an agnostic/non-Christian, you simply have no power to resist him. For those who are truly born again of the Spirit of God, the indwelling power of God is more than enough to overcome Satan. For those who are simply left to their own strengths/devices...Well, the outcome is quite different. Anyhow, in your so-called "perfect environment", Satan's presence and negative influence was allowed. In the world that is to come, Satan will no longer be afforded such privileges, as he will have been cast alive into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever. With such in mind, will those "in heaven" (Heaven is NOT the final destination for Christians, by the way. The meek shall ultimately "inherit THE EARTH") have the capability to sin? No. Those who have made it into God's kingdom will have already WILLFULLY overcome Satan by conscious decisions that they have made during their own lifetime and by the help of the indwelling Spirit of God. Having WILLFULLY chosen God over Satan, Satan will never be given access to them again.

Finally (for now, anyway), you basically asked if "eternal life" is a must or if we can choose to end it at some point. Let me speak frankly...

It is DEMONIC INFLUENCE/INSPIRATION that causes you to inquire about ending "eternal life". It is DEMONS (this I know, firsthand) who are afraid of eternity, because of the fate that awaits them. For the true Christian, there is nothing to fear/dread about eternal life.

That's all that I have time for right now. I'm swamped with work right now and I really won't have any break in my schedule until this coming Thursday. Should you have any objections/questions about what I've written, then I'll certainly do my best to address them when I have more time. I'll talk to you more later.

Take care.

 

[eugler]

Yes I am saying that eugler

I think I still need some clarification on that one. Are you saying that any critical or doubtful thought about the existence of god is motivated by satan himself?

 

[Upisoft]

Hello again,

I knew you'll give me about 3 hours of reading.

At this point, I would like to suggest to you that NONE of "your" thoughts are solely "yours" and "yours" alone. We live in a spiritual realm and we will consequentially constantly be "inspired" to yield/submit to either God Himself or any plethora of "other gods/demons/evil spirits" who seek to lead us astray.

OK, I'll assume for a moment that many entities (I'll call them that to keep it short) are able to control my thoughts. It is obvious from your words there are good and evil entities who are able to control my thoughts. The nature of good and evil is to try and overcome the other side. Therefore somewhere a battle must be raging between good and evil, just for control over my mind. This battle can have few states.
1. Good won. (Not very probable, but nevertheless it is an option. Nice option though.)
2. Evil won. (Not very probable either. You would be very sad if that happened.)
3. Good and evil are in static balance. Nothing changes in this situation. Good controls part of my thoughts and evil controls the other half of my thoughts. If evil has a vital control this option can be as good as p.2 and if good has the vital control it can be as good as p.1.
4. There is non-static balance. Good and evil constantly change which thoughts they control. This option is observable, as I'll constantly change my opinion about almost everything.
5. There is variable type of balance.
6. ??? (options I missed)

Options 1 to 3 can be true only if the effect of the "inspiration" process is unobservable. Option 4 will be very obvious and I'll be in the appropriate clinic instead . Option 5 is the one that looks like the best candidate, as I am in peace (there is no recognizable fight) when I am in agnostic mode. And when I decide to explore either religion or atheism the "war" begins. This is only behavioral observation, I don't feel different inside.

Thus my question, why God and Satan are not interested to change the agnostic position of my mind?

In other words, and I hope that this doesn't offend you, you're putting impossible demands upon forum members here in seeking to have any of them/us convince you of God's existence.

The forum name is "Exploring Christianity". Any exploration that does not reach a border is ... incomplete. Thus what you say is not offending, it is a praise. You can learn more by finding the borders, than looking at the uniformity of the center.

then that means that I have 1.5 billion "other women" who can "tempt" me away from my devoted affections towards my wife. If any one of them succeeds, then should I/could I RIGHTLY complain that these women should have never existed in the first place? Do you get my point?

Your example is not quite correct. Only part of these 1.5 billion women will actually have interest to "tempt" you. Also this would happen most probably because you've gone to a place you do not belong (her apt, bar, whatever). If that happened I'd agree you were seeking trouble. Eve was in the Garden of Eden, the place she belongs, living with God. The correct analogy would be if these women were in your house and they were trying to "tempt" you before your wife.

In other words, it is quite possible that Satan was originally one of the two "covering cherubs" in heaven until he sinned.

This is interesting point you make and we may discuss it further in the future, but for the moment (I'll use your stile ) it's quite unconvincing.

The "perfect environment" that you spoke of wasn't "perfect" at all. ... Anyhow, in your so-called "perfect environment", Satan's presence and negative influence was allowed. In the world that is to come, Satan will no longer be afforded such privileges, as he will have been cast alive into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever. ... Satan will never be given access to them again.

OK. I'm wrong. It was not prefect environment. I made the mistake to assume it was, because God created it. What about the world that is to come? Is it safe to make the same mistake and assume it will be perfect?

It is DEMONIC INFLUENCE/INSPIRATION that causes you to inquire about ending "eternal life". It is DEMONS (this I know, firsthand) who are afraid of eternity, because of the fate that awaits them. For the true Christian, there is nothing to fear/dread about eternal life.

Actually I don't feel fear. When I imagine eternal life I feel boredom. And people tend to do stupid things when they are bored.

 

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[Ih8s8n]

Hello again,

I knew you'll give me about 3 hours of reading.

Upisoft:

LOL! I would have given you about 6 hours of reading, but there are length restrictions (15,000 characters, I think) on the posts here (You should send a "Thank you" card to the site administrators ). For this reason, I already had to break up my last response into two posts. Anyhow, the lengthy responses are solely given to adequately answer your questions...as I'm sure you already know.

OK, I'll assume for a moment that many entities (I'll call them that to keep it short) are able to control my thoughts. It is obvious from your words there are good and evil entities who are able to control my thoughts. The nature of good and evil is to try and overcome the other side. Therefore somewhere a battle must be raging between good and evil, just for control over my mind. This battle can have few states.
1. Good won. (Not very probable, but nevertheless it is an option. Nice option though.)
2. Evil won. (Not very probable either. You would be very sad if that happened.)
3. Good and evil are in static balance. Nothing changes in this situation. Good controls part of my thoughts and evil controls the other half of my thoughts. If evil has a vital control this option can be as good as p.2 and if good has the vital control it can be as good as p.1.
4. There is non-static balance. Good and evil constantly change which thoughts they control. This option is observable, as I'll constantly change my opinion about almost everything.
5. There is variable type of balance.
6. ??? (options I missed)

Options 1 to 3 can be true only if the effect of the "inspiration" process is unobservable. Option 4 will be very obvious and I'll be in the appropriate clinic instead . Option 5 is the one that looks like the best candidate, as I am in peace (there is no recognizable fight) when I am in agnostic mode. And when I decide to explore either religion or atheism the "war" begins. This is only behavioral observation, I don't feel different inside.

Thus my question, why God and Satan are not interested to change the agnostic position of my mind?

Is it my "imagination" or have you been seeking to alleviate yourself from any responsibility in this "war" for "control" of your mind? You seem to be speaking as if you have no say in this matter. In other words, whereas I use such terminology as "yield" or "submit", you seem to speak as if the "warring parties" don't need your cooperation in any way, shape or form.

"And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath." (Mark 4:24-25)

Jesus instructed His disciples to be careful in what they would hear. There are many different "voices" (John 10:3-4) out there and if you listen to the wrong ones (whether knowingly or ignorantly), then who is to blamed for the outcome other than yourself? If you meditate on what I said earlier in regards to "inspiration", then hopefully you will recognize that EVERYONE who speaks to you (whether personally, through music, through TV/media, etc.) is inspired by Someone/someone. By giving the wrong people your ear, you're really yielding yourself to the same source of inspiration that is inspiring them. For example, as someone who has been delivered from many demons/evil spirits over the years, I know full well how demons can enter into someone through music. In fact, if you study the origins of the word "music", then you will find the following:

Online Etymology Dictionary

music mid-13c., from O.Fr. musique (12c.), from L. musica, from Gk. mousike techne "art of the Muses," from fem. of mousikos "pertaining to the Muses," from Mousa "Muse" (see muse (n.)). In classical Greece, any art in which the Muses presided, but especially music.

"Art of the Muses"? Who are the "Muses"?

Muse - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Muse

1: any of the nine sister goddesses in Greek mythology presiding over song and poetry and the arts and sciences

2: a source of inspiration; especially : a guiding genius


Anyhow, I'm simply trying to make a point...that you have a vital part to play in all of this. If you yield/submit yourself to someone, then don't turn around and accuse them of "controlling" you. You've given them that "control", whether ignorantly or not. As far as your question regarding both God's and Satan's interest in changing the agnostic position of your mind is concerned, they are both deeply interested in doing just that. Quite frankly, you ought to be thankful that God is still striving with you and that He hasn't just given you up to a reprobate mind (Romans 1:18-32). There are some fearful admonitions in scripture along these lines...TODAY if you will hear his voice, harden not your heart (Hebrews 3:7-15).

The forum name is "Exploring Christianity". Any exploration that does not reach a border is ... incomplete. Thus what you say is not offending, it is a praise. You can learn more by finding the borders, than looking at the uniformity of the center.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. In any case, your "exploration" needs to be in pursuit of Christ Himself as opposed to "Christianity".

Your example is not quite correct. Only part of these 1.5 billion women will actually have interest to "tempt" you.

LOL! Now, I'm offended (not really).

Also this would happen most probably because you've gone to a place you do not belong (her apt, bar, whatever). If that happened I'd agree you were seeking trouble.

There's some truth to that, for sure. There are many admonitions in scripture that warn against going to the wrong places. The early chapters of Proverbs immediately come to mind.

Eve was in the Garden of Eden, the place she belongs, living with God. The correct analogy would be if these women were in your house and they were trying to "tempt" you before your wife.

There have been at least two different occasions were the scenario that you've described has actually taken place. Anyhow, I trust that you got the point of my analogy...namely that the responsibility for any wayward actions fall solely upon the one who goes astray.

This is interesting point you make and we may discuss it further in the future, but for the moment (I'll use your stile

) it's quite unconvincing.

"Unconvincing" of what? The passage clearly speaks of a "cherub" who was created perfect and then went astray. That's the only point that I was attempting to make...that God's original "it was good" later changed.

OK. I'm wrong. It was not prefect environment. I made the mistake to assume it was, because God created it. What about the world that is to come? Is it safe to make the same mistake and assume it will be perfect?

The "mistake", as far as I'm concerned, is to keep on putting everything off until the future. As I said earlier, God's kingdom will ultimately be made up of those who have ALREADY overcome Satan. I can cite you some verses along these lines, if you'd like me to.

Actually I don't feel fear. When I imagine eternal life I feel boredom. And people tend to do stupid things when they are bored.

Excuse me for actually chuckling when I read this, but my chosen motto for my own life has been the following for MANY years:

"I'll never die of boredom."

I won't bother to elaborate on that, mainly because your "boredom" is linked to the future whereas my lack of boredom is linked to the here and now. I will, however, suggest to you that your "boredom" is most likely, if not definitely, directly linked to a wrong concept of what the future will be like from a Biblical perspective. Perhaps we can discuss some of that in the future as well.

Take care.

 

[Upisoft]

LOL! I would have given you about 6 hours of reading, but there are length restrictions (15,000 characters, I think) on the posts here (You should send a "Thank you" card to the site administrators ). For this reason, I already had to break up my last response into two posts. Anyhow, the lengthy responses are solely given to adequately answer your questions...as I'm sure you already know.

You may give me even a 500 page novel, I wouldn't mind. It will just take longer to read. (OK, now I'm expecting it...)

Is it my "imagination" or have you been seeking to alleviate yourself from any responsibility in this "war" for "control" of your mind? You seem to be speaking as if you have no say in this matter.

Actually you are correct. I was thinking something like that, when you said that NONE of my thoughts are truly solely mine. However after reading your response I'm starting to think I understood you incorrectly. It seems you are talking about things that can cause thoughts (like music, conversation, TV, etc.), while I was concerned about the actual process of thinking. For example in this conversation I read what you have to say, (>)then I try to understand it, then I try to see what makes sense to me and what I can agree with. Then I think about things I didn't understand or I didn't agree with and I think about a proper response or question.(<)

So everything between markers (>) and (<) is the process of thinking I'm taking about. This process can be affected by previous activities like watching TV, listening to music, etc. On that point there is no doubt. My question was if the process of thinking could be altered during its progress, and not before, like the examples with music and TV suggest. I think, based on the meditation on the question you suggested, that the answer is yes. So, I cannot trust my own thoughts. But that is a problem for me. Even if God Himself speaks to me in my head how can I trust that voice as I'd already be doubting everything. How can I say "yes, it was God who spoke to me"?, as I'll be already thinking "What if it was Satan playing god?"

If you meditate on what I said earlier in regards to "inspiration",

While thinking about all things above I asked myself a question that never have occurred to me. The question was short, "Why only us?", but it requires context to be understood. The question properly put in a context would be "Why Jesus offered salvation only to us, humans"? What about all the evil entities including Satan? After all you say everybody is guilty in sinning. Why not salvation for everyone?

You've given them that "control", whether ignorantly or not.

At the moment I can be described as ignorant. There is no extra info to my thoughts so I can guess the identity of the "controller". In fact all my thoughts feel genuinely mine.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. In any case, your "exploration" needs to be in pursuit of Christ Himself as opposed to "Christianity".

Well, I didn't make up the forum name. I was doing what it suggested.

There have been at least two different occasions were the scenario that you've described has actually taken place. Anyhow, I trust that you got the point of my analogy...namely that the responsibility for any wayward actions fall solely upon the one who goes astray.

Yes, I got the point of your analogy. It will make you a bad husband if you've yielded. But my point of concern was "what was you wife thinking, when she opened the door and let this woman to enter your home"?

"Unconvincing" of what? The passage clearly speaks of a "cherub" who was created perfect and then went astray. That's the only point that I was attempting to make...that God's original "it was good" later changed.

You spoke about the cherubs on the ark of the covenant. And this is a late event. Satan has already sinned. Why God will want a golden figurine of Satan on the ark if he is persona non grata? If God has not abandoned Satan(thus telling people to make golden figurines of him), then why not salvation for everyone? And if God thinks that Satan is lost cause, why tell people to make golden figurines (idols?) of him?

The "mistake", as far as I'm concerned, is to keep on putting everything off until the future. As I said earlier, God's kingdom will ultimately be made up of those who have ALREADY overcome Satan. I can cite you some verses along these lines, if you'd like me to.

As you said Satan was perfect until he sinned. But those people who have already overcome Satan will still be fallible, not even perfect. If perfect being can sin then fallible beings with whole eternity before them will probably sin infinite number of times (if given chance). They can do it because they were bored, greedy, curious, not careful, etc.

P.S.: Another meditation question: Did Satan have the same problems with his thoughts as I do? Did someone tempted him?

 

[razeontherock]

We don't know much about the fall of satan. We do know the cherubim in the OT were NOT satan. We also know none of us mortals have overcome satan in any ultimate sense, only minor victories, moment by moment ...

 

[oi_antz]

I have an apology to make Upisoft, it appears I had misunderstood Revelation 12, and since doing some research into it, it is quite commonly believed that the events in that chapter haven't yet come to pass. So I'm very sorry for having passed my misunderstanding to you, it was certainly presented with the best intentions, but as we know the human can't possibly know all there is to know in such a short lifetime, it is a process of continual learning and overcoming personal pride to accept that our understandings can grow, and that of course means to admit when we are wrong and seek to put it right. I hope you can forgive me for my mistake.

Concerning your questions about Satan being a cherub, I came across a great website that speaks all about angelology, if you take a look at that website it might become apparent that angels also have free will and can be tempted by pride to disobey God, just as the human is. It also mentions what happened in heaven to cause Lucifer's fall, it is a fantastic resource for summarizing and explaining the heavenly realm of angels and demons according to the three major Abrahamic religions:

Angels and Demons, Supernatural Beings of Heaven and Hell The Protectors and

 

[Ih8s8n]

You may give me even a 500 page novel, I wouldn't mind. It will just take longer to read. (OK, now I'm expecting it...

)

Upisoft: Hey, don't tempt me...

So everything between markers (>) and (<) is the process of thinking I'm taking about. This process can be affected by previous activities like watching TV, listening to music, etc. On that point there is no doubt. My question was if the process of thinking could be altered during its progress, and not before, like the examples with music and TV suggest. I think, based on the meditation on the question you suggested, that the answer is yes. So, I cannot trust my own thoughts. But that is a problem for me. Even if God Himself speaks to me in my head how can I trust that voice as I'd already be doubting everything. How can I say "yes, it was God who spoke to me"?, as I'll be already thinking "What if it was Satan playing god?"

Yes, I'm firmly convinced (based upon much experience) that the process of thinking that you're talking about can be altered (perhaps "interrupted" would be a better word) during its progress. Since our very thoughts themselves are "inspired" or spirit influenced, then why should it surprise you that a spirit might interrupt your thought process as well? Let me share with you another of my "world famous" (I'm only joking, of course) analogies. Years ago, when I was driving in my car on a cloudy day, heading towards a planned outdoor activity, I simply had this thought in my mind:

"I wish that the Sun would come out."

As that thought went through my mind, God spoke to me and said:

"It would be wiser to pray that the clouds be removed...the Sun is already out."

He was right, of course. My point? How many people have I met/encountered over the years who have told me that they wish that God would reveal Himself to them? Perhaps they would do well to start removing the things that are blocking Him from them instead (removing the clouds, as it were). Look, I'm trying to get you to consider that this world operates just the way that the Bible says that it does. In other words, this world is a battlefield in the spiritual sense. On one side, you've got God trying to draw you unto Himself by His Spirit and His Word and on the other side you've got Satan and demons trying to deceive/blind you. Your part in all of this? You've got to stop giving Satan access to your life so that he has less influence over your thought life and your very life itself. I know that you'll answer me that you're unable to distinguish between the two (God and Satan), but this is where God's Word, the Bible, is vitally important. I expect that you'll tell me that you have no way of knowing whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, Satan or just man, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Somewhere along the line (and we've conversed, on and off, for years, so I can say this) you're going to have to put God and His Word to the test. As I trust that I've told you before, the main purpose of "the book of the Lord" (the Bible) is to bring us into direct contact with "the Lord of the book" (God Himself). Read His Word. Find out what He says that you need to do to know Him. Then do it. Sincerely. He'll not give a stone to the one who sincerely asks Him for bread.

While thinking about all things above I asked myself a question that never have occurred to me. The question was short, "Why only us?", but it requires context to be understood. The question properly put in a context would be "Why Jesus offered salvation only to us, humans"? What about all the evil entities including Satan? After all you say everybody is guilty in sinning. Why not salvation for everyone?

I cannot fully answer that question. I can tell you this much, though:

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham." (Hebrews 2:14-16)

When Christ came to earth, He didn't take upon Himself "the nature of angels". Rather, He became a partaker of flesh and blood...just like us. Incidentally, although there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a lot of questions, we need not have all of the answers. By that, I mean to say that there are some things that I don't fully understand myself, but I can still act upon the things that I do understand and have proven to be true. In other words, don't wait for all of the answers before you do something. God holds us accountable to what has already been revealed to us.

At the moment I can be described as ignorant. There is no extra info to my thoughts so I can guess the identity of the "controller". In fact all my thoughts feel genuinely mine.

Personally, I'm not convinced of your ignorance. Knowing God to be no respecter of persons, I have to believe that He's striven with you many times throughout your lifetime. I'll give you some advice that I've ofttimes given to MYSELF and acted upon MYSELF...

You should really humble yourself before God and ask Him to reveal to you the times that He's spoken to you and that you've either hardened your heart to what He's said or simply failed to act upon it. Like I said, I've taken my own advice many times and it's done me a world of good.

Well, I didn't make up the forum name. I was doing what it suggested.

So, the website is "controlling" you, as well? I'm half-joking. Seriously, seek Christ. I trust that you've been around here long enough to recognize that although everyone calls themself a "Christian", there are TRUCKLOADS of division. Christ is not divided. Satan has as much access here as he does elsewhere...even if I get in trouble/banned for saying that.

Yes, I got the point of your analogy. It will make you a bad husband if you've yielded. But my point of concern was "what was you wife thinking, when she opened the door and let this woman to enter your home"?

Your question seems to suggest that my wife should be careful as to what type of women she allows into our home. If that's what you're suggesting, then I disagree. It wouldn't matter at all if my wife let in a vanful of "hookers". Their behavior need not influence my own behavior in the least. In other words, my wife should be more concerned about what type of man I am than what type of women she allows in our home. The same principle applies with God and us. As I said in a previous post, no matter how many "other gods' there are out there, I need not yield/submit myself to any of them...as long as I sincerely love God, that is.

You spoke about the cherubs on the ark of the covenant. And this is a late event. Satan has already sinned. Why God will want a golden figurine of Satan on the ark if he is persona non grata? If God has not abandoned Satan(thus telling people to make golden figurines of him), then why not salvation for everyone? And if God thinks that Satan is lost cause, why tell people to make golden figurines (idols?) of him?

Apparently, I should have explained things a little better as you've misunderstood my point (s). First of all, even though the making of the ark of the covenant was "a late event", as I said earlier, the ark was fashioned after a pattern from God's true tabernacle in heaven. In other words, God's true tabernacle PRECEEDED the making of the ark of the covenant. Also, I wasn't suggesting that Satan is STILL one of the two "covering cherubs", but rather that he may very well have originally been one of them. In other words, there would now be another "covering cherub" in his place. As far as the poster who insists that "we know the cherubim in the Old Testament were not Satan" is concerned, I would ask him for his proof of such knowledge if I were you. I'm not allowed to debate believers in this section of the forum...you are.

As you said Satan was perfect until he sinned. But those people who have already overcome Satan will still be fallible, not even perfect. If perfect being can sin then fallible beings with whole eternity before them will probably sin infinite number of times (if given chance). They can do it because they were bored, greedy, curious, not careful, etc.

There is no temptation without a tempter. His fate is already sealed.

P.S.: Another meditation question: Did Satan have the same problems with his thoughts as I do? Did someone tempted him?

I'd ask him for you, but he's a liar, so it wouldn't do any good. Seriously, though, we have some insight into the fall of the cherub from Ezekiel. PRIDE definitely was a major factor (LIFTED UP by his beauty). I'm done for the night. Thank God that over here in America we turn back the clocks one hour tonight...I could use the sleep.

Take care.

 

[Upisoft]

Upisoft: Hey, don't tempt me...

I'll think about it...

Yes, I'm firmly convinced (based upon much experience) that the process of thinking that you're talking about can be altered (perhaps "interrupted" would be a better word) during its progress.

Well, the exploration was worthwhile. Now I have more precise knowledge what to expect.

Read His Word. Find out what He says that you need to do to know Him. Then do it. Sincerely. He'll not give a stone to the one who sincerely asks Him for bread.

You should really humble yourself before God and ask Him to reveal to you the times that He's spoken to you and that you've either hardened your heart to what He's said or simply failed to act upon it. Like I said, I've taken my own advice many times and it's done me a world of good.

I had to copy+paste these two together, as they are about the same thing. I can do some of the things you say. I can read the Bible, I can find what I need to do. And that's about all I can do.
And there is logical reason I can't do much more. There are other religions with their books and their requirements. From my point of view any of them could be true or all of them could be false. How I can be sincere and humble myself before one particular god of them all, when I don't believe he is true God? Even worse, I'm not sure gods exist. Doing things for entities that do not exist could be described as insane, but it certainly will not be sincere.
Thus my search for reason to believe, so I could act sincerely. Otherwise it would be hypocrisy.
I can read the Bible and I'll do it, but asking me to "accept Gods viewpoint" or to "humble before God" would be impossible to do without hypocrisy.

we need not have all of the answers. By that, I mean to say that there are some things that I don't fully understand myself

This was huge temptation asking for cherry picking, QM*, etc. But then I want this discussion to continue in friendly manner.

*QM = quote mining, not quantum mechanics

Personally, I'm not convinced of your ignorance. Knowing God to be no respecter of persons, I have to believe that He's striven with you many times throughout your lifetime.

My ignorance is expressed by my unawareness of such events.

So, the website is "controlling" you, as well? I'm half-joking.

The website is "controlling" me, as if I don't stick to the rules I'll probably have no opportunity to use it again. So my desire to be around has much more control.

It wouldn't matter at all if my wife let in a vanful of "hookers". Their behavior need not influence my own behavior in the least. In other words, my wife should be more concerned about what type of man I am than what type of women she allows in our home. The same principle applies with God and us. As I said in a previous post, no matter how many "other gods' there are out there, I need not yield/submit myself to any of them...as long as I sincerely love God, that is.

"Hookers" possessing scopolamine can be especially dangerous. It can turn you into completely different man.

Apparently, I should have explained things a little better as you've misunderstood my point (s). First of all, even though the making of the ark of the covenant was "a late event", as I said earlier, the ark was fashioned after a pattern from God's true tabernacle in heaven. In other words, God's true tabernacle PRECEEDED the making of the ark of the covenant. Also, I wasn't suggesting that Satan is STILL one of the two "covering cherubs", but rather that he may very well have originally been one of them. In other words, there would now be another "covering cherub" in his place.

But that does not tell us when Satan actually fell and why he is still among us instead enjoying hot lava.

As far as the poster who insists that "we know the cherubim in the Old Testament were not Satan" is concerned, I would ask him for his proof of such knowledge if I were you. I'm not allowed to debate believers in this section of the forum...you are.

It is tempting idea... I'll think about it... Aaaah, no. It would be inappropriate for me to be a mediator of a debate between Christians. You may, however, debate it in the appropriate forum and post link here. I surely can read it.

There is no temptation without a tempter. His fate is already sealed.

Then how come Satan sinned for the first time (when he was perfect) as there was no tempter?

Thank God that over here in America we turn back the clocks one hour tonight...I could use the sleep.

Me too, but we've got our DST change last week.

 

[razeontherock]

But that does not tell us when Satan actually fell and why he is still among us instead enjoying hot lava.

Then how come Satan sinned for the first time (when he was perfect) as there was no tempter?

These are very deep questions, and I'm not sure we're really given solid answers. In general, studying deomonology has been known to have drastically negative effects! Small doses is the way to go ...

I have heard it taught that satan fell in the 5th creative day. Not sure that's correct, but what we do know is he was here already when mankind was put in the garden via Adam and Eve.

He is still here, to be trampled under our feet. To the Glory of G-d. Seriously, if you're looking for meaning to life and all that, look no further, but do understand this one concept REALLY well! And antz referred to Revelation 12, which speaks to this. (Which is not to say it doesn't also have some future relevance)

So the question of why satan fell, and that there is no redemption for him, I hold to be somber warnings for us ... he was no more perfect than the other 2 archangels, but he was overcome with pride.

 

[AznInsurrection]

Eh, I'm looking for the same answer as OP. (Upisoft)

I need a reason to believe that God actually exists ... evidence of some sort. And I'm tired of the usual "just look around you everything you see MUST (why MUST it?) has a designer behind it."

And I'm always confused as to why God didn't let us all go to heaven. We were his creation, and he knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would both sin. He knew that mankind will be doomed to hell, yet he made us anyways leaving only a portion of the human race to be saved. Why couldn't have just made us incapable of committing sin?

And why was Lucifer given such a severe punishment, for just wanting to become greater than God, or a God himself? I'm sure a Christian a long the way has once thought that being greater than God would be awesome, yet they're still entitled to salvation (and can still go to heaven). Yet Lucifer was eternally damned for that one desire.

One last question: Can God sin if He's omnipotent?

 

[Mess]

Ok blind post, risking to repeat things said here already. My ultimate prove of the existence of The God of The Bible would be this. The prophecies. About 25% of The Bible is prophetic, most have come true, only the ones regarding end times are still forming upto fulfillment. Other evidences include, hygienic laws, food laws, the dimensions of Noah's arc, the curcimcision laws(which has to be done on the 8th day no matter what, which just so happens to be the perfect day for wounds to heal as the blood cloths extremely fast on that day, and the fact that it completely prevents peniscancer), Archeological evidence, Miracles that are still happening today in His Holy Name, unseen knowledge of the waters of Earth for that time(oceanic currents, mountains of the depths of the sea, the forming of rain), the fact The Bible states the earth is round and floats in space, intimate knowledge of Orions belt and Pleiades, the amounth of stars long thought by science to be about a thousand, The Bible has always says innumerous amounts of stars, etc. So yeah plenty of evidence that supports The God of The Bible.