Rapture lady question?

ewq1938

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ewq - it is my understanding that a pretrib rapture view is PART OF PRE-MILLENNIALISM, along with mid-trib and post-trib and pre-wrath

When the rapture happens has nothing to do with Premill or Mid or post-trib.



how can we talk about a pretrib rapture without discussing the broader concepts of eschatology that it falls within?

It's not an important part of whether Christ comes before during or after the Millennium. This discussion is regarding a young lady who is accused of starting the pre-trib rapture and thus also about the rapture. Any more and there will be chaos and way too many issues being discussed which takes the focus off the main topic.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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that Darby "got it from a JESUIT"

I see prophecy from the historical view and do not believe in a pre tribulation rapture. I believe the second coming of Jesus is after the tribulation.

During the reformation Martin Luther accused the pope of being the anti-christ as did most of the protestant reformers in history through their study of the prophecies and history. The protestants were draining the attendance of the RCC thus the RCC had to find a way to take the heat off of the pope and the church

Jesuit Ribera (a Jesuit Priest) tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the Founder of the Futurist system in modern times.

E.B. Elliott states precisely the same fact, only assigning slightly different dates; and many others such as Dr. Candish, of Edinburgh, also support the charges. Thus the fact is established.

Rev. E. B. Elliott, quoted by Froom in the preceding paragraph, is that great English scholar from Cambridge University. In his four volume literary masterpiece, Horae Apocalypticae; or A Commentary on the Apocalypse, Critical and Historical, Elliott supports the evidence thus far that both Preterist and Futurist interpretations of prophecy originated with Rome:

More information can be seen here
The Papal Origins of Preterism - Historicist.com
 
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SeventyOne

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Dear Guys,

I've been trying to remember the name of an early 1800's or mid 1850's woman, who helped our understanding of the Rapture and our current take on Revelations? I think she was an American

Any help would be appreciated.

James


If you want other resources, I'd recommend the book 'Dispensationalism Before Darby, Seventeenth-Century and Eighteenth-Century Apocalypticism', by William C. Watson. It's about 350-pages and heavily footnoted. He quotes a lot of people pre-Catholic takeover, as well as post-reformation priests and preachers showing that premillennialism, pre-trib rapture, and the expectation the Jews would return to their land before the end and be part of God's end-time plan (Zionism) was alive and kicking long before Darby or Scofield ever came around.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Well said. I thought I would add this as it's the real origin of the pre-trib rapture:

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spirtually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".
The doctrine of the rapture pre-trib is linked with other future Bible prophecies. The 7 year tribulation with the rise of Antichrist and the middle of the week the abomination of desolation is set up and the mark of the beast enforced. The various judgments coming down along with the two prophets doing their thing too. Eventually we have Armageddon at which time Jesus returns with all his saints and Satan is bound for 1000 years and Christ reigns for 1000 years. The Bible gives the count down date from the abomination of desolation to the 2nd coming of Jesus. So how can this be like thief in the night? Many who refuse the rapture also embrace that Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD and that the church has replaced Israel and that there is no millennium. There is much more scripture supporting the futurist view of the 7 year tribulation, and the millennium than there is on the rapture.
Mathew 24 they asked Jesus a question. Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
In Lukes account of Jesus answer speaking of the end of the age Jesus said 34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Mathew 24 he brings up this day as being related to Daniels prophecy about the abomination of desolation. If we are to pray we are counted worthy to escape and be standing before the son of man we are not on earth during this time that is if we were counted worthy. You see Daniel 9 focuses on the 70 th week being separate from the other 69 weeks. Dan 9
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

This prince to come is future and in the middle of the week the sacrifice is stopped. Was this 70AD? Dan further says
5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

You see nothing happened in 70AD when the sacrifice was taken away. The abomination of desolation is still future. Hosea reminds us that the return of the sacrifice is related to the second coming and the beginning of the kingdom age.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

It is significant that Israel has prepared everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices not done since 70AD. The tribulation is near and many do not believe we are heading towards this very destiny. Rapture or not we all share the same gospel and in that is the central message.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Dear Guys,

I've been trying to remember the name of an early 1800's or mid 1850's woman, who helped our understanding of the Rapture and our current take on Revelations? I think she was an American

Any help would be appreciated.

James
why worry? it's A-trib in my view.
 
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ewq1938

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The doctrine of the rapture pre-trib is linked with other future Bible prophecies.

Nope. There is no Pre-trib in the bible. It's literally impossible:

It only takes two verses to prove that pre-trib is a false doctrine.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.
 
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Blade

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Dear Guys,

I've been trying to remember the name of an early 1800's or mid 1850's woman, who helped our understanding of the Rapture and our current take on Revelations? I think she was an American

Any help would be appreciated.

James

It never started there. Well they found many scrolls about "caught up/rapture" 100+ AD on this. I searched.. and forgive me.. but one cant just GOOGLE. You really have to dig. I found in around 300-400Ad a man that wrote Hymns and preached. Wrote about "CAUGHT UP". Then a preacher(went home a few years ago) that was on TV all the time talked about it and they found this and many others about "caught up".

So it never started in 1830's by some woman. I read that and for ME I never got "pre mid or post" from it. We need to take Christ at His word. He told us He went to make us a home and would come back and get us so where He is we will be amen? Just believe HIS words not mine or anyone else. If HE said I will come get you.. then just live our life as if HE is coming now. And we will never miss Him..

So its not what I believe.. thats not truth. not HIS word. You search you seek you WILL FIND! If its WRITTEN HE will do it!
 
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Douggg

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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming)

It doesn't say the second coming in my KJV bible. What translation are you using?

The rapture could take place anytime between now and when it actually takes place. The second coming takes place at the conclusion of the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30).
 
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DennisTate

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Dear Guys,

I've been trying to remember the name of an early 1800's or mid 1850's woman, who helped our understanding of the Rapture and our current take on Revelations? I think she was an American

Any help would be appreciated.

James

I am not certain but I personally was convinced about the Rapture by near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby.

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth." (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death .com)
 
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ewq1938

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It doesn't say the second coming in my KJV bible. What translation are you using?

Obviously that is commentary on the verse.

The rapture could take place anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

No that is wrong. The scriptures clearly show the second coming and resurrection happen before the rapture happens which places the rapture firmly after the tribulation, after the second coming and after the resurrection.
 
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Douggg

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Obviously that is commentary on the verse.

No that is wrong. The scriptures clearly show the second coming and resurrection happen before the rapture happens which places the rapture firmly after the tribulation, after the second coming and after the resurrection.
You are reading something into the verses that is not there.

Jesus is coming and His reward is with him.
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming)

This is why I don't believe in a posttrib rapture. It's a man-made doctrine narrated by people who views the bible their way.
 
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ewq1938

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This is why I don't believe in a posttrib rapture. It's a man-made doctrine narrated by people who views the bible their way.


Except it obviously is not man made but is exactly what Paul said. It is pre-trib that has no scriptural support at all and goes against the writings of the only person in scripture to use the word rapture (using the Greek word for rapture).

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.
 
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Douggg

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A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.
Zecahriah 14, Jesus returning to this earth at the mount of olives, splitting it, making a valley for the Jews to escape through.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The Jews will have become Christians before Jesus returns. Yet they are not raptured but escape through a valley. In the same sentence, it says the Lord comes with his saints.

So that pretty much nullifies any rapture coinciding with the second coming.
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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Except it obviously is not man made but is exactly what Paul said. It is pre-trib that has no scriptural support at all and goes against the writings of the only person in scripture to use the word rapture (using the Greek word for rapture).

The only place in all of 1st Thessalonians that Paul even hinted at the timing of the rapture is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where Paul revealed the day of the Lord when Christ comes for the rapture, it'll happen at a time of peace and safety on earth. This annul any possibility of a posttrib rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
 
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ewq1938

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Zecahriah 14, Jesus returning to this earth at the mount of olives, splitting it, making a valley for the Jews to escape through.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The Jews will have become Christians before Jesus returns. Yet they are not raptured but escape through a valley. In the same sentence, it says the Lord comes with his saints.

So that pretty much nullifies any rapture coinciding with the second coming.


That has nothing at all to do with when the rapture happens. Again, I use the only verses in which the word rapture is even used and the order of events is given as second coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ and lastly the rapture of the living Christians. None of those three things happen until the tribulation has ended.

Christ does not return before the trib has ended.

The resurrection does not happen before the trib has ended.

The rapture does not happen before the trib has ended.

No other scripture contradicts the order and timing that Paul wrote about.
 
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ewq1938

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The only place in all of 1st Thessalonians that Paul even hinted at the timing of the rapture is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where Paul revealed the day of the Lord when Christ comes for the rapture, it'll happen at a time of peace and safety on earth. This annul any possibility of a posttrib rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


That's badly incorrect on all points. That the lord comes as a surprise to the blinded does not give us when the rapture happens.


Again, I use the only verses in which the word rapture is even used and the order of events is given as second coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ and lastly the rapture of the living Christians. None of those three things happen until the tribulation has ended.

Christ does not return before the trib has ended.

The resurrection does not happen before the trib has ended.

The rapture does not happen before the trib has ended.

No other scripture contradicts the order and timing that Paul wrote about.

Only 1Th 4:16-17 tells us the order of events and when the rapture happens.
 
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Douggg

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That has nothing at all to do with when the rapture happens. Again, I use the only verses in which the word rapture is even used and the order of events is given as second coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ and lastly the rapture of the living Christians. None of those three things happen until the tribulation has ended.
Zechariah 14 does not say when the rapture happens - only that it does not happen at Jesus's Second Coming.

The Jews will be Christians when Jesus returns to this earth - from the place that he left in Acts 1, the Mt. of Olives. And the Jews, having the testimony of Jesus at the time, in Jerusalem will not be raptured, but escape through a valley created when Jesus's feet touched down on the Mt. of Olives, as he comes with his saints, the Second Coming.

So the rapture must have already taken place before Jesus Second Coming.... AND the rapture before the Jews (Israel) become Christians.... which would indicate..... before the man of sin commits the transgression of desolation, triggering the day of the Lord... which conforms to 2thessalonians2.

The reason is because up to the transgression of desolation, the Jews will not be Christians, because they will have embraced the person as their messiah - King of Israel. The transgression of desolation will be the event by which they will realize they made a terrible, terrible mistake. And they will turn to Jesus.

Timing wise, since the transgression of desolation (and the Jews subsequently turning to Jesus) will take place sometime before day 1185 on the 2520 day, 7 year, timeline.... the rapture has to happen before then.

But we can't pinpoint it down any closer than that. We can definitely be encouraged though to be looking up for our redemption draws near.

Only 1Th 4:16-17 tells us the order of events and when the rapture happens.

If we ignore all the other definitive information given regarding the day of the Lord, the seven years, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the transgression of desolation, the abomination of desolation, Jesus's return - in fact, everything in the bible regarding the end times.

If a person chooses to ignore all those things - then, yes, he can read the Second Coming into the verses in 1Thessalonians4:13-18... because he has ignored the other bible verses that indicate otherwise.

Just making statements as you have - is NOT biblical proof. You need to provide verses that show why the Jews in Zechariah 14 are not raptured. You need to provide verses why nothing is said about the translation of the living in Revelation 19, Jesus's Second Coming. Provide proof, not just make statements.
 
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Zechariah 14 does not say when the rapture happens - only that it does not happen at Jesus's Second Coming.

It doesn't say that either. Only 1Th 4:16-17 tells us the order of events and when the rapture happens. That's the simple facts of this.


If we ignore all the other definitive information given regarding the day of the Lord, the seven years, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the transgression of desolation, the abomination of desolation, Jesus's return - in fact, everything in the bible regarding the end times.

Nothing you have mentioned affects when Paul said the rapture occurs. It only happens after the resurrection of the dead. Guess what? That only happens at the second coming.
 
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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
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That's badly incorrect on all points. That the lord comes as a surprise to the blinded does not give us when the rapture happens.
BUT no-one, no matter who it is, is going to be saying Peace and Safety at the end of the great tribulation, nor during the second half of the seven year when all of the judgments are taking place on the earth, with war and famine and death of the riders of the red horse, black horse, pale horse.

What MatthewTwentyFour is pointing out is the day of the Lord, in 1Thessalonians5, begins not at the end of the seven years, at the Second Coming, but when the person reveals himself as the man of sin.
 
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