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Featured Quoting Calvin

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by zippy2006, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Supporter

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    does satan create anything?

    imo satan perverted God's perfect creation - making God the only creator - and satan the one who steals/kills/destroys God's perfect creation

    and Jesus the one who RESTORES all things/makes the all good again partly now via the Holy Spirit of God, and fully later via the manifest power of God
     
  2. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    No. Like I said in my last, Calvinists deny the necessary part of freedom that is the ability to do otherwise.

    For Calvinists, dogs, turtles, and ants have as much freedom as humans.
     
  3. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How? That is like saying to a little kid, "Go ahead, play with this whole box of matches," and when he does, and the house burns down, and the child is burned to death, then the man says, "It's his own fault."

    This example is what Calvin is saying. He is saying that God gave us a box of matches, and he blames US when we get in trouble. It doesn't work that way, and you know it.
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Well, to provide an example: God ordained that Rehoboam would not listen to the people in his sinful pride so that he could tear the kingdom away from him (1 Kings 12:15).

    Or like God ordaining the selling of Joseph into slavery (Genesis 50:20, Psalm 105:17).

    Or like God ordaining that Samson sinfully desired to marry a Philistine (Judges 14:4).

    Or like God ordaining that Jesus Christ be crucified (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:27-28).

    I assume you've read the Bible before on this subject. If this is not God ordaining sin then what is it?
     
  5. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I happen to agree with you i've always had a similar take on it and yep translations can be slightly off or confusing even with books outside the bible. Gotta appreciate them though, we don't have to learn another language or anything.
     
  6. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God ALLOWED Rehoboam to choose to not listen to his people. This sin on Rehoboam's part then allowed his people and his kingdom to be torn away.

    God allowed Joseph to be sold into slavery. His brothers just wanted to get rid of him, but God saw matters another way, and it came to be to give glory to God. But the sin was on the part of his brothers. God only allowed them to sin (free will).

    God allowed Samson to have the hots for Delilah--but as we can see of his past behavior, he had a problem keeping it in his pants. Because of Sampson's sin (along with Delilah's), Sampson lost his strength. True, God gave him back his strength, and the felling of the temple of Dagon was done for the glory of God.

    We ALWAYS have a choice whether we will or will not commit a sin. We might be so lost in the particular sin that we cannot see it as sin, but we have a choice, nonetheless, to choose that sin.

    Have you ever smoked? I did, a long time ago (about 50 years ago). By God's grace, I have been free of that for a long, long time. But how can anyone think that such a disgusting, smelly, dirty habit that will KILL you is fun, or even cool is beyond me.

    Another thing to think of. By making God ORDAIN things to happen, He is stuck within time. God is eternal. He lives outside of time. He can reach into this world at any point in history and touch someone, but He himself does not live in time.
     
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  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I'm afraid the language of these passages is much stronger than God allowing the sin to happen. These events are said to be from the Lord. Did God simply allow Jesus to be crucified by the hands of lawless men or did God plan this event to happen?
     
  8. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Post #211 in the The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay. I still don't understand your comment, though. But it's probably not that important.
     
  10. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I, however, and many others like me, reject that definition.
     
  11. I'm_Sorry

    I'm_Sorry Taking a break from CF Supporter

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    Agree brother.

    satan is the source of perversion, the father of it.
     
  12. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was crucified by the hands of lawless men. God did not "Allow" this, rather He deferred judgment against them by not striking them all dead immediately (and perhaps due to the plea of Jesus to forgive them.) He also did not specifically intervene to stop the events, such as sending in a legion of Angels.

    God's determinate counsel in delivering Christ to die as a sacrifice on man's behalf includes many parts of His character: God's wisdom, power, virtue, mercy, love, wrath against sin, etc.

    'Determinate' in Acts 2:23 is the greek 'horizo' (where we derive the english 'horizon'). This refers to God limiting or 'horizoning' all aspects of Creation and the plan of salvation. [While in english the word 'determine' might seem like destiny or forcing an action, the greek 'horizó' is to limit or to bound.]

    God set up the scene (creation, physical laws of nature), spiritual laws (justice, mercy, the punishment for sin, etc), the players (angels, man), the plan of salvation (redemption via the blood of Christ for those who believe), etc [Psa 139:16, Jn 1:3, Jon 1:9, Psa 95:5, Acts 4:24, Rom 6:23, Prov 10:16, Neh 9:6, II Kings 19:15, Is 63:5, Heb 2:10, etc.] This was all by the power and decree of God, such as "Let there be light" (Gen 1:3, II Cor 4:6, John 1:9).

    As sovereign king, all of God's subjects are under the physical limits and spiritual laws that God has put into place. God is true Sovereign: He can delegate tasks, punish sin, work evil for good, place limits, etc. God is active, nations rising and falling at His purpose, and the eternal plan enacted by His counsel.

    [See the related topic How does God's sovereignty work together with free will? for more on God's sovereignty and how God allows men free (albeit limited) operation under His rule].

    As for God's counsel or resolved plan, God determined by His own will that salvation would come through Christ alone, and that only through faith in Christ could man be reconciled to God. This meant that Christ would have to suffer and die for us [Acts 3:18, Heb 2; II Cor 5:18-19]. This was not something men thought of, would have thought of, or could achieve by their own power, but rather was God Himself reaching out to man. God in His wisdom determined that He would chose a people for Himself, not by works or ethnicity, but by faith in Christ (Acts 2:23, Gal 3:28, Rom 3:22.) He determined He would choose both Jew and Gentile (John 10:16, Rom 11.) He determined that His own right arm would bring salvation (Is 63:5.) Scripture often references God as having planned something, then bringing it to pass (Is 37:25-27, Gen 50:20, Gen 41:32, Is 46:11).

    Jesus had to die via God's plan/foreknowledge/counsel that salvation would come through Christ. Hence, Christ was delivered by the plan of God over to men who put him to death (Acts 4:27-29, Acts 2:23, Luke 22:22). Jesus willingly submitted to the Father’s will in this (Heb 5:7-9, Phil 2:5-8.)

    Foreknowledge and God's will/counsel/purpose/resolve/plan go hand-in-hand. God by His foreknowledge and counsel set the process by which men are saved; faith in Christ (Jn 3:16, Jn 6:29.) God makes known the end from the beginning; He is outside of time (Is 46:10.) He created time for His gracious purpose regarding man, that they might come to repentance and be saved through faith (Tit 1:1-3, Eph 2:5-8, Rom 2:4, I Pet 1:10-12, Heb 1:1-3.)

    What does it mean that Christ was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  13. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    On I Kings 12:15, from the Pulpit Commentaries:

    "Verse 15. - Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people, for the cause [or course of events; lit., turn] was from the Lord ["Quem Deus vult perdere, prius dementat." God did not inspire Rehoboam's proud and despotic reply, but used it for the accomplishment of His purpose, the partition of the kingdom (cf. Exodus 14:4; Matthew 26:24). God makes the wrath of man to praise Him], that [Heb. in order that] he might perform his saying, which the Lord spake by [Heb. in the hand of; cf. 1 Kings 14:18; 1 Kings 2:25, note] Ahijah the Shilonite [see on 1 Kings 11:11] unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

    Many times Scripture will mention something that fulfills a prophecy of God. This does not prove that God author's evil or ordains man to sin, but that His plan incorporates the evil of man, when needed, to fulfill prophecy or lead to specific events.

    Gen 50:20 is in this same vein. The actions and thoughts of Joseph's brothers were evil, but God used it for good, to bring about the settling of the Israelite's in Egypt for a time (and hence later their Exodus, which was to typify our rescue in Christ from slavery to sin.) Does this mean that God caused their thoughts or actions? No! But it does show that God incorporated their actions into His plan with an alternate perspective and intention - to bring good, not evil.

    "God did send me before you to preserve life." Gen 45:20

    As Barne's notes on the Bible put it: "People are free in their wickedness; but God is equally free in frustrating their schemes, and overruling their designs for the accomplishment of his own purposes."

    "Psa 105:16-19
    He called down famine on the land and destroyed all their supplies of food;
    and he sent a man before them—Joseph, sold as a slave. They bruised his feet with shackles, his neck was put in irons, till what he foretold came to pass, till the word of the Lord proved him true."

    God, in this passage, was responsible for calling down famine on the land, destroying food, sending Jospeh, and proving Joseph true. 'Sold as a slave' is narrative - God did not sell Joseph, though He intended the sale the brother's did for His own purposes. God also did not bruise Joseph's feet, put Him in irons, or otherwise make people harm Joseph.

    Judges 14:4 does not say that God planted sinful desires in Samson's heart. (We know that God tempts no one, James 1:13) It does interestingly describe that God was "Seeking occasion" against the Philistines, and hence the pleas of the parents could not persuade their son against his plan.



    A passage I have always found interesting, as relates to this topic, is Jer 19:4-6, particularly Jer 19:5:

    "...and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;..."

    The Hebrew there is specific that it never entered God's mind (leb - inner man, feelings, will, or intellect) for them to do such a thing.
     
  14. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Supporter

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    then why does God say choose: Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Psalms 25:12

    why does God say do not harden your hearts but repent: Psalms 95:8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 3:8

    if Matthew 22:14 says many are called and few are chosen doesn't that suggest God wanted people to choose His way? - it would make no sense to ask someone to choose to obey God if God pre-ordained their choice

    imo, all the predestined scriptures speak of a reap-what-you-sow type of predestination - if you choose God, you reap/are predestined for eternal blessings - if you reject God you reap/are predestined for eternal punishment

    of all the scriptures you quoted, they don't say "God ordained"

    they can be reasonably interpreted to mean that no matter what man chooses, God has made a way for things to work out to an end that accomplishes God's will on earth

    so each person can wisely choose to co-operate with God's plan - or they can foolishly choose to try to thwart God's plan - but no matter what, God's plan will be accomplished

    iow, Joseph could have made it to 2nd in command over Egypt another way, but because Jacob created competition via favoritism, Joseph chose to become prideful, and his brothers chose to become jealously vengeful

    imo it's best to be wise and choose to co-operate with God if you want to avoid creating trouble in your life and the lives of others, because God's plan will occur anyway
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  15. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    A great point. As Mordecai says to Esther, "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?"

    God's plan (Christ dying for our salvation, the general arc of history, specific prophetic events, etc.) cannot be stopped by any action of man. But man still has a choice in his own individual life whether to obey or disobey, humble self or resist God in pride, etc.
     
  16. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Supporter

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    amen - well said - in a much shorter version than mine

    Esther 4:14 was a wonderful scripture quote/proof that God makes His plan succeed no matter what choices we make

    i like your phrase "the great arc of history" - the predestined part that cannot be thwarted by man's decisions

    God Bless you my dear friend
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  17. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Here's a place to start if you'd like some honest info about Reformed Theology.

    The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.
     
  18. HighCherub

    HighCherub Active Member

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    Lol

    Yall don't.

    For some reason, you all can't wrap your heads around something like God knowing the outcome of what He created from the beginning, which inevitably spells predestination.

    To say otherwise means putting a cap on God's own knowledge- the fact is, the Bible is ripe with Calvinism from Genesis to Jude. You're free will is just a few cherry picked verses that excuses yourself from yourself.

    And that's ridiculous. John Calvin was the leader of the Reformation against the Church to right the wrongs you perpetuate.
     
  19. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Supporter

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    that is not the problem we have

    we have a problem with calvin saying God forces anyone to do/think/decide something

    it's that part of calvin's predestination theology that is opposed/incomprehensible
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Which is why I created the straw man thread, since this here is an example of one. :D
     
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