Quoting Calvin

[zippy2006]

The ever-ready reply of Calvinists to objections is, "You don't understand Calvinism!" In truth it seems that many opponents understand Calvinism much better than so-called Calvinists. In fact the common objections are well-founded in John Calvin's own words. The only misrepresentation happening is on the part of Calvinists. Let's take three common issues and show why they are valid criticisms in light of Calvin's own words: 1) God authoring evil, 2) God predestining to Hell, and 3) free will.

1. God is the author of evil

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

2. God predestines to Hell

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)​

3. There is no free will

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)​

 

[ByTheSpirit]

How incredibly sad

 

[Chesterton]

Ol' Johnny was one weird dude.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You know one problem with this view is Adam and Eve... if God isn't a free will God someone would question why he didn't just give them the mind to stay right if he really is enforcing such a power.

I'm not here to debate i'm just curious as to how a Calvinist would go about answering that. Maybe you'll have some sort of answer i'm just curious.

now your first point is somewhat agreeable.

 

[amariselle]

In direct contrast and contradiction to Clavin's claims that God is the "author" of evil, here is what the Bible says:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." - James 1:13-14

We do in fact have free will, and we are therefore accountable for our choices. It is absolutely false to say God authors evil and that it is His doing.

There is NO darkness or evil in God. Saying so is blasphemy.

 

[ExodusMe]

It is hard to disagree with a Calvinist because their return fire is always a guilt ridden shotgun blast of "you think you are better than other people who did not choose Christ?" or "what is so special about you?" ha...

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

In direct contrast and contradiction to Clavin's claims that God is the "author" of evil, here is what the Bible says:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." - James 1:13-14

We do in fact have free will, and we are therefore accountable for our choices. It is absolutely false to say God authors evil and that it is His doing.

There is NO darkness or evil in God. Saying so is blasphemy.

Just out of curiosity how would some of you take this scripture?

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Thursday]

Just out of curiosity how would some of you take this scripture?

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Darkness is just the absence of light. God won't stop us from doing evil when we walk away from the light.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Darkness is just the absence of light. God won't stop us from doing evil when we walk away from the light.

I'm referring to the create evil portion of scripture and yes I agree with you there. He may draw on an individual and try to get them to come back though but they choose if they want to stay in the darkness ultimately though. If they want to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness .

 

[Thursday]

I'm referring to the create evil portion of scripture and yes I agree with you there. He may draw on an individual and try to get them to come back though.

Well, God created everything in the universe.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well, God created everything in the universe.

good reply I'm curious as to how the others and calvinist will respond to that one I just posted it cause it seems topical but yeah I have the same view.

God created everything and everyone so if something becomes evil well he made it so it's subject to him. The evil in the world isn't more powerful then the Good of God becuase he created it.

 

[Adstar]

I'm referring to the create evil portion of scripture and yes I agree with you there. He may draw on an individual and try to get them to come back though but they choose if they want to stay in the darkness ultimately though. If they want to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness .

Well of course God created evil by giving people the option to reject and rebel against Him... But calvinist teaching as quoted in the OP says that God Forced satan to reject His will and forced him to Rebel.. The OP quotes that all sinners are forced to sin by God. That's a huge difference then God simply creating the possibility of Evil by allowing satan and mankind to rebel against him..

How toxic is the teachings of calvinism..

 

[AlexDTX]

I'm referring to the create evil portion of scripture and yes I agree with you there. He may draw on an individual and try to get them to come back though but they choose if they want to stay in the darkness ultimately though. If they want to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness .

He takes responsibility for creating evil because He created free will.

 

[AlexDTX]

I have a friend who used to be an Arminiust. His two daughters rejected Christ and have fallen the way of the world. He was so dejected by this turn of affairs in his life he began reading the Institutes of Calvin and began to believe in the TULIP of Dort. Why do people embrace Calvinism? Because it removes personal responsibility from their shoulders. In truth we all have to make our choices and he believed as a father he was responsible for their being trained in the knowledge of God. And they were, but they chose the world and sin over God. People reject Christ because they want to hold onto their own wills, not realizing that their wills are not their wills but Satan's. Coming to Christ and embracing the cross brings us to what God created us for and we find our wills in Him.

[statement erased because it was thoughtless and irresponsible to say] It is a demonic doctrine that abdicates personal responsibility for the growth of the Church.

 

[amariselle]

Just out of curiosity how would some of you take this scripture?

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

In context, that chapter is dealing with king Cyrus, a gentile king, who did not know God and yet God clearly declares He is using Cyrus to help Israel.

It speaks of God's absolute sovereignty in working all things together for His purposes. He can and does use even those opposed to Him to bring about His purposes and fulfill His plans and promises. Nothing is impossible for God, and even when people, in their free will, oppose Him, His plans are not thwarted.

That does not mean evil originates with God, or that he desires it, but that even though it exists and has entered His once "good" creation, He remains God, perfectly able to work all things together in His righteousness.

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:4-7

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well of course God created evil by giving people the option to reject and rebel against Him... But calvinist teaching as quoted in the OP says that God Forced satan to reject His will and forced him to Rebel.. The OP quotes that all sinners are forced to sin by God. That's a huge difference then God simply creating the possibility of Evil by allowing satan and mankind to rebel against him..

How toxic is the teachings of calvinism..

appreciate the response you nailed it. I didn't realize calvinism was that extreme though in regards to how evil is set. Didn't realize they actually believe God caused Satan to rebel that's extreme.

 

[paul1149]

The ever-ready reply of Calvinists to objections is, "You don't understand Calvinism!"

Great post, and I agree, I have read time and again the above, yet never with any real clarification of the misunderstanding.

 

[Truthfrees]

can someone quote me the part where God forced satan to become evil?

i have a hard time understanding calvinism - grasping what they are saying - and the scriptural reasoning behind

it just doesn't register in my mind in a logical way - it seems scrambled an incomprehensible to me - i can't figure out what calvinism is saying - maybe i need the calvinism for dummies to get what calvinism is all about

i once attended a brethren church for a while and when a young 2 year old was acting up the father said - well God may have pre-destined him to hell

i was shocked by the words and the lack of concern

almost like - o well - he may be one of those who suffers an eternity in hell

i thought - where is the crying out to God for the saving of this little life - your own flesh and blood

i was immediately thanking God for my own father who cares very much what happens to me and has always petitioned God on my behalf when i was going astray

i've seen people turn around and go whole fire for God after prayer

it saddens me to think there are religious doctrines that teach people to turn away from those who are floundering in sin - they don't even attempt to snatch anyone from the fire to save them - contrary to what Jude 1:23 says

 

[Truthfrees]

how does one know if they are a calvinist - they don't sin?

sinners are not calvinists - because calvinists don't sin?

 

[amariselle]

can someone quote me the part where God forced satan to become evil?

i have a hard time understanding calvinism - grasping what they are saying - and the scriptural reasoning behind

it just doesn't register in my mind in a logical way - it seems scrambled an incomprehensible to me - i can't figure out what calvinism is saying - maybe i need the calvinism for dummies to get what calvinism is all about

i once attended a brethren church for a while and when a young 2 year old was acting up the father said - well God may have pre-destined him to hell

i was shocked by the words and the lack of concern

almost like - o well - he may be one of those who suffers an eternity in hell

i thought - where is the crying out to God for the saving of this little life - your own flesh and blood

i was immediately thanking God for my own father who cares very much what happens to me and has always petitioned God on my behalf when i was going astray

i've seen people turn around and go whole fire for God after prayer

it saddens me to think there are religious doctrines that teach people to turn away from those who are floundering in sin - they don't even attempt to snatch anyone from the fire to save them - contrary to what Jude 1:23 says

Sadly, such is the "logical" outworking of a doctrine that teaches that God has chosen only a small number of people to be saved, the rest to be lost in eternal damnation.

This is why I truly believe Calvinism to be so truly damaging to people hearing the Gospel and turning to Christ as Saviour. After all, what's the point if it's all been decided already? If no one has any free will, no one can actually seek God or cry out to Him. (All of which is entirely unbiblical).

It leaves both Calvinists and Non-Calvinists who are troubled by Calvinistic doctrine, searching hopefully for signs that they perhaps have won the salvation lottery and are one of the chosen few who get to go to Heaven.

These beliefs can, and likely do, often lead to pride or dispair.

In contrast, the Bible is clear from beginning to end that God is a loving, just, righteous and merciful God. He created mankind in His image, He desires relationship with us, takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, gives us free will and ability to choose Him, and desires that NONE should perish, but ALL come to repentance and faith in Christ. And He is faithful to all His promises, though we are so often faithless and have fallen short of His glory.