Quoting Calvin

[I'm_Sorry]

It is also interesting that during creation we have two categories of good.

Good and Very Good.

Process of creation per day = God saw it was good.

Then finished creation = God saw it was very good.

 

[amariselle]

1st to be clear I'm not saying God is the author at all.

I'm saying lucifer is.

lucifer was allowed in the garden, so was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

for there to be knowledge of evil, it existed before the tree.

When the angelic were created I believe.

Question, can God create God?

What is His first commandment?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that first question, but I believe the Bible is clear that God is not a created being and He is eternal, without beginning or end.

 

[dqhall]

The ever-ready reply of Calvinists to objections is, "You don't understand Calvinism!" In truth it seems that many opponents understand Calvinism much better than so-called Calvinists. In fact the common objections are well-founded in John Calvin's own words. The only misrepresentation happening is on the part of Calvinists. Let's take three common issues and show why they are valid criticisms in light of Calvin's own words: 1) God authoring evil, 2) God predestining to Hell, and 3) free will.

1. God is the author of evil

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

2. God predestines to Hell

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)​

3. There is no free will

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)​

I do not believe that God decided everything that was going to happen in all eternity before it happened. God is prescient in as much as God may calculate the trajectories of people's lives and find out where they are going before they get there. I think some people will have faith to repent and do better, for there is a reward in heaven for the righteous. If you offer a large prize to the fastest runner in a race, the pace will quicken.

Is this not the author of evil?
"All the blessings we enjoy are Divine deposits, committed to our trust on this condition, that they should be dispensed for the benefit of our neighbors." John Calvin

If I were to look at all the mistakes of popes, cardinals and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, I might be able to make a case that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church Peter tended to in the first century.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that first question, but I believe the Bible is clear that God is not a created being and He is eternal, without beginning or end.

I'm saying everything He created is lesser than Him.

He didn't create something equal to Him.

He cant because He is Alpha and Omega and is jealous of His rightful Height IMO.

And the one who was in the beginning made the most "xyz" of His creation was lucifer.

And lucifer became to think himself as God, lucifer became the source of the evil and the fall.

So the closest to God's height in creation was the one to first fall.

 

[amariselle]

I'm saying everything He created is lesser than Him.

He didn't create something equal to Him.

He cant because He is Alpha and Omega and is jealous of His rightful Height IMO.

And the one who was in the beginning made the most "xyz" of His creation was lucifer.

And lucifer became to think himself as God, lucifer became the source of the evil and the fall.

So the closest to God's height in creation was the one to first fall.

Alright, thank you for clarifying.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Alright, thank you for clarifying.

It's a Mistry and many man have sort the answer yet it remains a mystery.

We are to have Faith.

 

[friend of]

I liken so many of these threads dealing with Calvinism lately to what happens when a body is fending off infection.

 

[Hammster]

I liken so many of these threads dealing with Calvinism lately to what happens when a body is fending off infection.

I assume that Calvinism is the white blood cells.

 

[friend of]

I assume that Calvinism is the white blood cells.

Are you going to address any of the arguments brought up against Calvinism here or are you going to make comments like this that add nothing to the conversation?

 

[Hammster]

Are you going to address any of the arguments brought up against Calvinism or are you going to make comments like this that do nothing?

I have a whole thread dedicated to arguments about Calvinism.

 

[Chesterton]

Calvin was paid by the Rothschilds to write his Institutes.

Do you know where I can find info on that?

 

[Albion]

I was merely pointing out that when God says he creates evil it doesn't always have to be what WE perceive as evil. Because God did call the Babylonian invasion EVIL.

But you're saying that God did create evil. As I said, my belief is that he can refer to evil, predict that something evil will take place, or perhaps even use evil...but none of that means he CREATED it.

 

[JLB777]

The ever-ready reply of Calvinists to objections is, "You don't understand Calvinism!" In truth it seems that many opponents understand Calvinism much better than so-called Calvinists. In fact the common objections are well-founded in John Calvin's own words. The only misrepresentation happening is on the part of Calvinists. Let's take three common issues and show why they are valid criticisms in light of Calvin's own words: 1) God authoring evil, 2) God predestining to Hell, and 3) free will.

1. God is the author of evil

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

2. God predestines to Hell

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)​

3. There is no free will

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)​

How in the world can people believe such nonsense?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Just out of curiosity how would some of you take this scripture?

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The word in Hebrew means calamity or distress, not moral evil. The archaic language of the KJV uses 'evil' - a decent enough translation for the time it was written as evil could mean calamity - but not a good translation in modern English as it leads to confusion.

Does God allow moral evil?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Calvinism, or rather a bad inner response to it, did give us the present form of the Memorare prayer.


Memorare - Wikipedia

 

[AlexDTX]

Do you know where I can find info on that?

I don't remember where I had read this. But I will keep my eyes open when I go through my archives. Sorry that I can't immediately reference the statement.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Calvin was paid by the Rothschilds to write his Institutes. It is a demonic doctrine that abdicates personal responsibility for the growth of the Church.

Impressive, especcially seeing that the Rothschilds only became wealthy in the mid Eighteenth century and only expanded outside Hesse-Kassel thereafter. Funding something 200 years before you actually become wealthy and hundreds of kilometres from where you are based, now that's commitment.

I think you are either mistaken or thinking of another banking family entirely.

 

[AlexDTX]

Impressive, especcially seeing that the Rothschilds only became wealthy in the mid Eighteenth century and only expanded outside Hesse-Kassel thereafter. Funding something 200 years before you actually become wealthy and hundreds of kilometres from where you are based, now that's commitment.

I think you are either mistaken or thinking of another banking family entirely.

Yes, I recant. I don't remember where I read that, but the dates are centuries off. I apologize for making an erroneous statement. They may have been talking about the council of Dort, but that is just off the top of my head. I will erase my first statement so as not to mislead anyone else.

 

[Geralt]

quoting calvin is one thing, quoting him out of context is another.

The ever-ready reply of Calvinists to objections is, "You don't understand Calvinism!" In truth it seems that many opponents understand Calvinism much better than so-called Calvinists. In fact the common objections are well-founded in John Calvin's own words. The only misrepresentation happening is on the part of Calvinists. Let's take three common issues and show why they are valid criticisms in light of Calvin's own words: 1) God authoring evil, 2) God predestining to Hell, and 3) free will.

1. God is the author of evil

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

2. God predestines to Hell

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)​

3. There is no free will

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)​

 

[zippy2006]

quoting calvin is one thing, quoting him out of context is another.

I disagree. Of course you are welcome to illustrate the larger context and the alternative reading of such passages.