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Which is also true for the Bible.quoting calvin is one thing, quoting him out of context is another.
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Which is also true for the Bible.quoting calvin is one thing, quoting him out of context is another.
...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)
The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
2. God predestines to Hell
…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)
3. There is no free will
We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)
Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)
Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)
…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
God's justice glorifies Him.How does this glorify God? How does anyone sent to hell glorify God?
How does this glorify God? How does anyone sent to hell glorify God?
can someone quote me the part where God forced satan to become evil?
God's justice glorifies Him.
And that is poor answer, as it denies God's mercy. God's justice must balance with God's mercy. If He is only justice, then ALL will end up in hell. If he denies His justice, and only uses mercy, then sin is let into heaven, and we are just as bad off as we are now.
Where did I deny mercy?And that is poor answer, as it denies God's mercy. God's justice must balance with God's mercy. If He is only justice, then ALL will end up in hell. If he denies His justice, and only uses mercy, then sin is let into heaven, and we are just as bad off as we are now.
Where did I deny mercy?
…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
While I know that Calvin taught that God designed for moral evil to be in his creation I'm not aware of Calvin calling God the "author" of moral evil. This passage from Calvin may be referring to "evils" in the sense of "calamities". I would have to read it in its context. The Westminster Standards, which are heavily based on Calvin and within his tradition, uses these words:
"God, from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, not is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (WCF 3.1)
It's important for Calvinists to say that while God ordained sin to come to pass he is not the author of sin. This means that sin comes from the creatures and that God himself does not sin. An example of this is found in Genesis 50 when Joseph is recounting his ordeals to his brothers. He said of their sin: "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." God ordained the actions of Joseph's brothers. They were agents in those scenes and God was an agent. They meant those actions for evil but God meant the same actions for good. A profound mystery!
I don't see anywhere in these quotes where Calvin mentions the free will of man. Calvin taught that man has free will so long as we understand the concept in the compatibalist sense.
Yet the common sense position is that necessity destroys responsibility and freedom, and that free will is incompatible with determinism. That is why I (justifiably) see Calvin's claims as a denial of free will. And I hardly think Calvin would disagree considering what is commonly meant by "free will."
Where are you getting that from?I did not say YOU yourself, personally. It is Calvin that denies it,
Calvin, in making God such an inflexible being has created a monster with NO mercy, and only 5 (for instance) out of the dead in 9/11 got to heaven, and the rest, no matter how pious, no matter how much they loved God, no matter how secure they were in their salvation went straight to hell. That is Calvin denying God's mercy. That is why I find his teachings reprehensible.
Where are you getting that from?
Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
???Read my recent posting on the other thread you are stewing.
Jeremiah 5:24, Acts 14:15-17, John 9:3, Proverbs 22:2, Proverbs 16:33, Matthew 10:29, Jeremiah 23:23-24, Acts 17:24-28, Hebrews 1:3.Where did Calvin get this from?
Is this really what is commonly meant by "free will" or "freedom"? In philosophical conversations, which are far from common, this may be the meaning. But in every day usage "free" means "I can do what I want" and "not free" means "I cannot do what I want". Man is certainly free in this sense in the Calvinist worldview. Unless a man is in prison or otherwise constrained he is able to do as he pleases.
Let's look at the dictionary definition:
Calvinism certainly excludes (2), but does it exclude (1)? I think a basic condition of a choice or decision (and freedom) is the ability to have chosen otherwise. If I am shown apples and oranges and I choose an apple, the common view of choice holds that I could have chosen an orange. For Calvin, there is no possibility to choose otherwise.
- voluntary choice or decision
- freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
i totally agree, but i guess calvin says God forced satan to become evilForgive me for speaking, but God did not force satan to become evil. Lucifer was the tip of the spear, if you will. He was, outside of God, the most beautiful thing in the universe. However, he also had pride, not the justifiable pride that God had made him the wonderful, but an arrogant pride, "I will be like the most High." That type of pride IS evil, and it IS a sin. Satan IS the author of sin and evil. God did not design it. God did not create it. But because satan had free will, he could come up with such an idea on his own.