NeedyFollower

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This view of the OT is surely yours and maybe others but the OT is not nor ever was like you state here about a piece of land, it was and is about God's will and purpose being carried out in the manner which He desires. As far as wars or capital punishment goes, how do you deal with Rom 13:1-5 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

Of course you are entitled to your belief but it should not contradict the word of God.
Please forgive me and may others I may have implicated with my words forgive me as well . It is of course wrong to be dogmatic in anything for Paul says , He that thinks he knows anything knows nothing as he ought . Since this is what I believe to be the case ...clearly Moses knew his reward was not a piece of ground ..did they know about the Resurrection ? Maybe more than we think . And to clarify , there are many christian who even today support the carnal Israel ( verses spiritual Israel ) and their right to the promised land. We know of course that we are strangers and pilgrims . And we seek a city who's maker and builder is God . So it at least appears that my point is not necessarily far from the mark..many in Jesus' day assumed an earthly kingdom and the the restoration of Israel from the Romans.
I am not sure where I contradicted the Word of God , and His word became flesh and told us to love our enemies . And our apostle Paul did not contradict the Word of God either.
But a man cannot serve two masters nor be a citizen of two kingdoms. ( Paul did use his Roman citizenship so that he could testify before Cesar according to the prophecy given him . )
I am not an anarchist. I believe in government and I do submit to authority. I pay taxes but I do not vote . I refrain from positions that would cause me to cause injury to others . It is my understanding that those who founded this country rebelled against the authority of the King and one day we will see rebellion , discord and utter disdain for God's Word. Believing Men will become covetous and lovers of their own self. Men and Women who profess faith , will still pursue their own happiness and careers rather than raising their own children in the fear of God . They will be given to strangers to raise 5 days a week and taught about God when they are not watching TV , going to ball games and movies ..maybe a few hours on Sunday morning ...People will be buying assurance of salvation on Sunday morning but not doing truth or doing love ....They will put on Christ like a suit and take Him off when they leave church ...see if this does not happen . Men will demand their rights ...we will become a country of 300 million people where everyone is their own King but know nothing of submission . What a tragedy .

From Romans 16 :17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
This also agrees with Paul's words to Timothy regarding getting entangled in the affairs of this world . There are many , many highly credible and law abiding atheist who God has put in charge. Their job is the administration of carnal things as they have no ability to minster eternal things.
I think the word says we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves . The living word of God said his kingdom is not of this world ..if it were , his disciples would fight . I do not believe anything I have stated about ME contradicts Jesus Christ , THE WORD of God . I am not perfect enough to kill other enemies of God when I myself was an enemy and He responded with mercy . My preference is for them to know God's mercy for that is also His will .

From Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

There is a Gospel that is being preached which is tied to nationalism and patriotism ..It appears very proud and self-righteous which appears at least to me in direct contradiction to Christ ..The Word of God as you mentioned . And we know that God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble and God's word does not contradict itself . If we are saved by grace through faith , then it causes humility and peace . But the proud can not bear the humble as a lie can not stand the truth . That is why Christ said that he came to bring a sword ...His word divides the light from the darkness as it ever has.
It would seem that to be a "proud american christian" is like something being a yes-no ..or a left- right ...it is a contradiction of terms .
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes ..God chose Israel but eventually they felt entitled and misrepresented His grace. Many are called but few are chosen.
Choose ye this day who you will serve . This last statement was a statement of faith based on God's grace . It was a statement of being able to view God's goodness ( which is but by grace. ) It is why Jesus said , He that has ears to hear , let them hear. With that said , He also says Ask and it shall be given and God has already shown His abundant love and is not stingy ( I am not speaking of carnal things. ) God is unchanging . He is faithful because of who He is and can not be otherwise . He tell us to be kind and merciful ..is He less than He ask us to be ? Jesus chastised the pharisees that passed over the love of God . God was misrepresented.
It was written ..but I say . That sounds like a change as indeed it is . It was big change when God became man through His Son . The new covenant is a better and lasting covenant . The old covenant was about a piece of dirt called the promised land . Men still fight and kill over that which is not theirs and justify it by residing in the old covenant examples without keeping anything else of the old covenant except the right to wage war in God's name . It is called putting new wine in old wine skins.
Joshua did indeed wage war ...Phenias slew many to stop the plague. Had these things not occurred , Israel may have ceased to exist. The cancerous tumor always thinks the physician inhumane , a ruthless killer and lacking mercy. So did Joshua show mercy ? Yes , to Israel but again , that was under the old covenant and according to the purposes of God . If there is not a new covenant , how can Christ be a priest since in the flesh He is from the tribe of Judah .

Brother , I don't know what is anyone else's heart but personally I can not go to war or commit violence ...I was not and am not perfect enough . There may be some who are and have always be perfect and sinless ..They may exact vengeance ..but I am not crazy about self righteousness. I just am not in a place to do that having received mercy . Besides , God has appointed those still under the law to administer the law . And the law is good but it is for the lawless . The world operates from the tree called the knowledge of good and evil but eating from that tree will bring death as it always must . It will never yield eternal life.

The knowledge of good and evil is the law.
 
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EpicScore

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To be honest, the tension between the sovereignty of God vs. the free will of man has always been one of those paradoxical doctrines that's extremely hard to reconcile, and that an inclination towards one side is going to be decried as a denial of the alternative viewpoint (I do not say opposing because they are not mutually exclusive), as well as the implications each may carry.

As I understand it, the centrepoint of Calvin's doctrine has always been the sovereignty of God, and that everything that had and could ever happen, only happens because God wills it. And if anything could happen outside of God's control, then we cannot be assured of God's promise that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

The problem of evil sets a can of worms because it raises several significant theological questions: if God ordains everything, including Evil, then how can we not say that He is the author of it as well? If God is good, and creates only what is good, then how is it that His good creatures could even have the inclination to choose what is Evil?

These issues, particularly on the active vs. passive will of God, is a debate even among Calvinists (and I must say, one does not need to 100% adhere to the teachings of Calvin to be a Calvinist; as he is not infallible, nor are his writings an inspired, and therefore inerrant, Word of God). I remember hearing a sermon by John MacArthur on the Exodus, which mentions that over the course of the ten plagues, Pharaoh would have freed the Israelites, but God deliberately hardened his hard, and prevented him from doing so. In his own teaching series, R.C. Sproul disagrees on this point. On this particular issue, Sproul contends that the Pharaoh is not a "good-hearted man who only wanted to grant freedom to the slaves, if not for God". Rather, Pharaoh is already wicked and hard-hearted, and God merely "gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves" (Romans 1:24). God does not need to instill in already-fallen humans a desire for unrighteousness.

Regarding the topic of double predestination, I agree that some people will go to hell, but that's not strictly a Calvinistic doctrine, as people generally believe that not all everyone are saved, unless you're a Universalist. But some people who takes issue with the concept seem to imply that God sends some people to Hell regardless of what they do in their life. However, this is not what Calvinists believe (not the ones I know of anyway). Rather, everyone have chosen to rebel against God and stands condemned before God, but God has chosen some people, and move these elect to turn from their rebellion and receive salvation "by grace through faith", after which they will freely choose to love and obey Him. When God ordains an end, He does not leave the middle part as a vacuum, but He incorporates the will and actions of His subjects to achieve His grand design.

Bottom line is, as creatures, man's free will can never supersede God's free will, but that does not mean that people have no free will. After all, the Bible does not teach, as Sartre does, that "either man is wholly determined or else man is wholly free."

I hope this is a helpful perspective.
 
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Si_monfaith

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To be honest, the tension between the sovereignty of God vs. the free will of man has always been one of those paradoxical doctrines that's extremely hard to reconcile, and that an inclination towards one side is going to be decried as a denial of the alternative viewpoint (I do not say opposing because they are not mutually exclusive), as well as the implications each may carry.

As I understand it, the centrepoint of Calvin's doctrine has always been the sovereignty of God, and that everything that had and could ever happen, only happens because God wills it. And if anything could happen outside of God's control, then we cannot be assured of God's promise that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

The problem of evil sets a can of worms because it raises several significant theological questions: if God ordains everything, including Evil, then how can we not say that He is the author of it as well? If God is good, and creates only what is good, then how is it that His good creatures could even have the inclination to choose what is Evil?

These issues, particularly on the active vs. passive will of God, is a debate even among Calvinists (and I must say, one does not need to 100% adhere to the teachings of Calvin to be a Calvinist; as he is not infallible, nor are his writings an inspired, and therefore inerrant, Word of God). I remember hearing a sermon by John MacArthur on the Exodus, which mentions that over the course of the ten plagues, Pharaoh would have freed the Israelites, but God deliberately hardened his hard, and prevented him from doing so. In his own teaching series, R.C. Sproul disagrees on this point. On this particular issue, Sproul contends that the Pharaoh is not a "good-hearted man who only wanted to grant freedom to the slaves, if not for God". Rather, Pharaoh is already wicked and hard-hearted, and God merely "gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves" (Romans 1:24). God does not need to instill in already-fallen humans a desire for unrighteousness.

Regarding the topic of double predestination, I agree that some people will go to hell, but that's not strictly a Calvinistic doctrine, as people generally believe that not all everyone are saved, unless you're a Universalist. But some people who takes issue with the concept seem to imply that God sends some people to Hell regardless of what they do in their life. However, this is not what Calvinists believe (not the ones I know of anyway). Rather, everyone have chosen to rebel against God and stands condemned before God, but God has chosen some people, and move these elect to turn from their rebellion and receive salvation "by grace through faith", after which they will freely choose to love and obey Him. When God ordains an end, He does not leave the middle part as a vacuum, but He incorporates the will and actions of His subjects to achieve His grand design.

Bottom line is, as creatures, man's free will can never supersede God's free will, but that does not mean that people have no free will. After all, the Bible does not teach, as Sartre does, that "either man is wholly determined or else man is wholly free."

I hope this is a helpful perspective.

"but that does not mean that people have no free will."

Man's will could be free only if the knowledge and assurance required for making a choice is intrinsic to man.

God is the source of all knowledge and assurance.
 
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EpicScore

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"but that does not mean that people have no free will."

Man's will could be free only if the knowledge and assurance required for making a choice is intrinsic to man.

God is the source of all knowledge and assurance.

Indeed, if we define "free" as being "autonomous" then, in that sense, man does not have free will. Aseity is an incommunicable attribute of God, and everything apart from Him has their being derived from something else.

Personally, I see choices, not as a spontaneous whim, but as being a culmination of a person's knowledge, desire, emotions and biases that are mostly conditioned by circumstances not completely under their control.

However, I would maintain that humans still exercise free will when they consciously choose one outcome over an alternative because they perceive it, at the time of choosing, as the best course of action. For example, a kid might be pressured by some friends to attend an event that he would not have wanted to go to on his own, but unless he was physically dragged there without having the capacity to fight back, he still made the choice to go, if only to please his friends, over doing something else of his own liking.

With regards to faith, a friend of mine submitted himself to Christ after a near-death experience which he would not have willingly gotten into. Another is a Christian because she's been raised in a God-fearing family which she did not choose for herself, and the values that her parents instilled in her during her growth, eventually convinced her of the truth of Christianity. Although both of them willingly and joyfully chose to put their faith in Christ, couldn't one say that the means/equipment for them to finally make that decision has been provided by God's sovereign grace prior to their making of that decision?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Indeed, if we define "free" as being "autonomous" then, in that sense, man does not have free will. Aseity is an incommunicable attribute of God, and everything apart from Him has their being derived from something else.

Personally, I see choices, not as a spontaneous whim, but as being a culmination of a person's knowledge, desire, emotions and biases that are mostly conditioned by circumstances not completely under their control.

However, I would maintain that humans still exercise free will when they consciously choose one outcome over an alternative because they perceive it, at the time of choosing, as the best course of action. For example, a kid might be pressured by some friends to attend an event that he would not have wanted to go to on his own, but unless he was physically dragged there without having the capacity to fight back, he still made the choice to go, if only to please his friends, over doing something else of his own liking.

With regards to faith, a friend of mine submitted himself to Christ after a near-death experience which he would not have willingly gotten into. Another is a Christian because she's been raised in a God-fearing family which she did not choose for herself, and the values that her parents instilled in her during her growth, eventually convinced her of the truth of Christianity. Although both of them willingly and joyfully chose to put their faith in Christ, couldn't one say that the means/equipment for them to finally make that decision has been provided by God's sovereign grace prior to their making of that decision?

Either sin rules man/woman (Romans 5: 21) and works through him/her (Romans 7:17, 20)
OR
the grace of God given through Jesus Christ rules man/woman (Romans 5:21) and works through him/her.

"Kid being dragged" incident might be one under the rule of sin. If that kid is an elect of God, in the appropriate time grace will start to rule him and grace will drive away the draggers as well.

If the means/equipment for them to finally make that decision has been provided by God's sovereign grace prior to their making of that decision, doesn't it imply that the human will isn't free?
 
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NeedyFollower

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The knowledge of good and evil is the law.
Yes ..Hallelujah ...Eternal Life exists by faith through grace and produces fruits of mercy and grace to others to the glory of God our Father and Jesus His Mercy demonstrated . How is the body of Christ in India ? I feel we struggle here in the USA with an emphasis on church rather than the savior. Please pray for me as I ( by God's grace ) work out my salvation. He has been more gracious to me than any mortal has a right to expect . I am trying ( again by His grace ) to live a life worthy of God so as to not bring a reproach on His name or that His name is blasphemed or poorly reflected by my actions or lack of actions . Grace and peace in the name of our Savior Jesus Christ .
 
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NeedyFollower

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Either sin rules man/woman (Romans 5: 21) and works through him/her (Romans 7:17, 20)
OR
the grace of God given through Jesus Christ rules man/woman (Romans 5:21) and works through him/her.

"Kid being dragged" incident might be one under the rule of sin. If that kid is an elect of God, in the appropriate time grace will start to rule him and grace will drive away the draggers as well.

If the means/equipment for them to finally make that decision has been provided by God's sovereign grace prior to their making of that decision, doesn't it imply that the human will isn't free?
You know I was thinking about Christ' choice when He said, however not my will but thy will be done . I know this has been debated as regarding Christ' duality , etc. But to me the point was . A ) Christ confessed God's sovereignty in saying that God is able to do all things and if there be another way ..etc. B) Christ ( being the Word of God become flesh ) recognized that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins so this allowed God to remain faithful and truthful in the face of accusations from the enemy of the truth and purchase us by His Word .C ) That He must demonstrate faith so He was able to endure suffering for the joy ( our redemption ) which was before Him . In other words ..demonstrating divine love .
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes ..Hallelujah ...Eternal Life exists by faith through grace and produces fruits of mercy and grace to others to the glory of God our Father and Jesus His Mercy demonstrated . How is the body of Christ in India ? I feel we struggle here in the USA with an emphasis on church rather than the savior. Please pray for me as I ( by God's grace ) work out my salvation. He has been more gracious to me than any mortal has a right to expect . I am trying ( again by His grace ) to live a life worthy of God so as to not bring a reproach on His name or that His name is blasphemed or poorly reflected by my actions or lack of actions . Grace and peace in the name of our Savior Jesus Christ .

"Please pray for me as I ( by God's grace ) work out my salvation".

You can't work out your salvation if God doesn't give you the desire and action (Philippians 2:13).
 
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Si_monfaith

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You know I was thinking about Christ' choice when He said, however not my will but thy will be done . I know this has been debated as regarding Christ' duality , etc. But to me the point was . A ) Christ confessed God's sovereignty in saying that God is able to do all things and if there be another way ..etc. B) Christ ( being the Word of God become flesh ) recognized that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins so this allowed God to remain faithful and truthful in the face of accusations from the enemy of the truth and purchase us by His Word .C ) That He must demonstrate faith so He was able to endure suffering for the joy ( our redemption ) which was before Him . In other words ..demonstrating divine love .

What are you trying to prove? What is your inference?

Do you think that the human will is free? Yes or no.
 
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NeedyFollower

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What are you trying to prove? What is your inference?

Do you think that the human will is free? Yes or no.
Oh my brother . I was just sharing what I thought , right or wrong ..These things have been debated for so long and besides , what does it matter what I think ...I know not to glory for that belongs to God and someone lost who was found has not to glory except in the one who found him . I guess maybe I am hoping to demonstrate ...not prove , that Christ died and rose by the foreknowledge of God. That makes me accountable . And it is Gods will that I be sanctified but it is also said that with much tribulation that ye shall enter the kingdom of heaven .... Jesus said to strive to enter in for many will seek to enter in and shall not be able. . Who am i but your fellow worker in Christ Jesus to the glory of God ? Like you , I am His workmanship for I did not choose Him but He chose me and it was not because I was a godly man ..quite the opposite. I do believe there is scriptural reference for us to encourage and provoke one another unto love and good works ..so it appears that God has so ordained that we can be molded and perfected ....I do believe that God has ordained that we pray for one another . Jesus said to go and teach ..and can love be learned ? " Let the older women teach the younger women to love their husbands and love their children . " I think it is an amazing kindness that God ordained that we can be taught love ...that we can put off somethings and put on others .....otherwise all of Pauls' letters of instruction were for naught .
Endeavor for the faith once delivered to the saints ...this was written to believers . I am just a baby so I desire milk ...but I see many examples of sound theology but truth is not the same as sound theology and love certainly is not ...shall we show up with debate and an orthodox faith on judgement day ? It will not pass as many goats who have butted heads with one another instead of obeying our Lord and loving one another , will also show up with sound theology . Why pass our time here in fear ? For we have been given something precious . I hope by God's grace to have provided food for thought rather than cause us to bite and devour one another ...if I did otherwise , I ask for your forgiveness , knowing I have it in Christ Jesus our Lord .
 
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NeedyFollower

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"Please pray for me as I ( by God's grace ) work out my salvation".

You can't work out your salvation if God doesn't give you the desire and action (Philippians 2:13).
I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience as did my forefathers, as I constantly remember you night and day in my prayers. ( 2nd Timothy 1:3 )

In fact, we rejoice when we are weak but you are strong, and our prayer is for your perfection. ( 2nd Corinthians (13;9 )

Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, so that you may stand mature and fully assured in the full will of God. ( Colossians 1:29 )

God has given us prayer ..and I believe that God wants us to make intercession and supplication for one another ....it may be a mark of election that we spend our time in much prayer , beseeching the Lord .
In the parable of the unrighteous judge and the window ( one of my favorites because it would indicate that God our Father wants us to " bug " him ....and those with faith do because they can ) Jesus ends the parable with " Nevertheless , I wonder if the Son of man find faith on earth when He returns " Jesus equates prayer with faith . So again , I was only asking you to exercise your privilege to pray for me. maybe this forum is mostly about debate which makes sense but we need not be restricted ..I think we are also free to love one another .
Is there a better forum where we can share with one another and love one another ?
 
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Si_monfaith

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What is the problem of molinism that opposes unconditional election?


It is feared that if the human will is free, and since humans commit acts of sins, this would render God as the originator of evil/acts of sin.

Reply:
God says that He creates evil (which refers to sinful acts also because Adam and Eve chose kge-knowledge of good and evil, which eventually led them to violations of the law and which is committing acts of sin. Nakedness was considered an act of sin after they chose kge) in Isaiah 45:7 because humans have the kge. Without kge, humans cannot know that something is evil or a sinful act.

So if one is set free from the kge as per Romans 7:4,6, the kge is taken away from him (as knowledge of what an act of sin is, comes from the law-Romans 3:20) and he cannot know what an act of sin is, and therefore he will not be worried about God creating evil/sinful acts. Now, God says that He creates or authors evil/sinful acts to demonstrate to the elect the difference between the life under kge and the life under His grace. Under kge there is death whereas under grace there is eternal life.
 
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