Truthfrees

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In contrast, the Bible is clear from beginning to end that God is a loving, just, righteous and merciful God. He created mankind in His image, He desires relationship with us, takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, gives us free will and ability to choose Him, and desires that NONE should perish, but ALL come to repentance and faith in Christ. And He is faithful to all His promises, though we are so often faithless and have fallen short of His glory.
yes this makes a lot of sense to me

i see this in scripture

i dont have to strain or manipulate scripture to come up with this way of thinking

God is love - this is love - it matches my personal experience with God

is it the misunderstanding of the predestined scriptures that got calvin on the track he went? - Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:29, Romans 8:30
 
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amariselle

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yes this makes a lot of sense to me

i see this in scripture

i dont have to strain or manipulate scripture to come up with this way of thinking

God is love - this is love - it matches my personal experience with God

is it the misunderstanding of the predestined scriptures that got calvin on the track he went? - Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:29, Romans 8:30

Yes, I think a lot of the misunderstanding arises out of a confusion regarding God's foreknowledge (since He knows all things) and therefore concluding that He must have predestined all things, since knowing about them, He still allowed them to happen.

However, in Scripture we see that God allows people to rebel and go against His will, but that does NOT mean He is not completely sovereign, He is fully able to work ALL things together according to His plans and purposes. We know He does not desire evil and wickedness for example, though He does know people will do evil and wicked things, rather, He can and does work even the evil things people do into His ultimate plan.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Just out of curiosity how would some of you take this scripture?

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I think evil in this verse could easily refer to bad circumstances. What I mean is when God raised the Babylonians against Judah he said through Jeremiah that "out of the north EVIL will come". God certainly was the author of that.

So evil need not always mean demonic influence or fleshly living. It can easily mean anything contrary to peace and good.
 
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Albion

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I think evil in this verse could easily refer to bad circumstances. What I mean is when God raised the Babylonians against Judah he said through Jeremiah that "out of the north EVIL will come". God certainly was the author of that.
I think we need to ask..."How do you figure??"

It sounds like he was forecasting or predicting some events, not that he was the "author" of them.
 
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amariselle

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I think evil in this verse could easily refer to bad circumstances. What I mean is when God raised the Babylonians against Judah he said through Jeremiah that "out of the north EVIL will come". God certainly was the author of that.

So evil need not always mean demonic influence or fleshly living. It can easily mean anything contrary to peace and good.

Well said. We also know from Scripture that God gives people over to delusion in judgement when they choose to turn from Him and harden their hearts.

Also, along with all the blessings promised to ancient Israel were severe punishments should they disobey the Lord their God. (Many of which came to pass when Israel did disobey).

Clearly God can and does use the evils of this world to make Himself known as the only true God and to the glory of His name.
 
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amariselle

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Here is R.C Sproul on origin of evil.


It is a sin to call good evil and to call evil good.

"Evil is not good, but it is good that there is evil, otherwise it would not be."

Is that quote saying that without evil there would be no good?
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Romans 9:11-24

11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?




Romans 9 is one of the base scriptures for Calvinism
 
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Albion

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Clearly God can and does use the evils of this world to make Himself known as the only true God and to the glory of His name.
That, however, is not the same as saying that God is the author of, or creator of, Evil.
 
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amariselle

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That, however, is not the same as saying that God is the author of, or creator of, Evil.

Absolutely, that has actually been my point if you read my earlier comments. I do not believe God IS the Author or Creator of evil. (A major objection I have with Calvin).
 
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Is that quote saying that without evil there would be no good?

Its a mystery to me, its beyond our understanding.

I believe lucifer is the source of evil.

Why was he allowed in the garden, why was the tree in the garden.

There is a reason.

Ezekiel 28:14-19

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I think we need to ask..."How do you figure??"

It sounds like he was forecasting or predicting some events, not that he was the "author" of them.

God raised Nebuchadnezzar and used him as an instrument of judgement against his people. How was God not the author of the judgement? Asking honestly, it seems pretty cut and dry to me
 
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Albion

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God raised Nebuchadnezzar and used him as an instrument of judgement against his people. How was God not the author of the judgement? Asking honestly, it seems pretty cut and dry to me
The question had been whether or not God was the author/creator of Evil. Somehow, over the course of some posts, it's become that God USES the Evil in the world for his purposes. I should think that we would all realize that those two propositions are not identical.
 
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I'm_Sorry

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The question had been whether or not God was the author/creator of Evil. Somehow, over the course of some posts, it's become that God USES the Evil in the world for his purposes. I should think that we would all realize that those two propositions are not identical.

Romans 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 
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amariselle

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Its a mystery to me, its beyond our understanding.

I believe lucifer is the source of evil.

Why was he allowed in the garden, why was the tree in the garden.

There is a reason.

Ezekiel 28:14-19

13 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

There is no doubt from Scripture that evil has entered what God created as perfect and declared "good." However, I would say it is clear from the Bible that good can and does exist entirely without evil and does not need evil in order to exist.

The ultimate proof, God Himself. There is NO darkness in Him. He exists whether there is such a thing as evil or not, eternally.

Now, there may have always been the POSSIBILITY of evil, but it did not need to become a reality in order for God, who is without beginning or end, to exist.
 
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There is no doubt from Scripture that evil has entered what God created as perfect and declared "good." However, I would say it is clear from the Bible that good can and does exist entirely without evil and does not need evil in order to exist.

The ultimate proof, God Himself. There is NO darkness in Him. He exists whether there is such a thing as evil or not, eternally.

Now, there may have always been the POSSIBILITY of evil, but it did not need to become a reality in order for God, who is without beginning or end, to exist.

Its a reality for creation.

How can we (man) understand what a cherub that covered the throne of God is capable of.
 
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amariselle

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Its a reality for creation.

How can we (man) understand what a cherub that covered the throne of God is capable of.

I fully acknowledge mankind's limited understanding, but Scripture does indicate that at least for a time, before Adam and Eve sinned, there was an unbroken fellowship between them and God. (Free from evil and the brokenness of sin) The Bible also says numerous times that God saw what He had created and it was "good."
 
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I fully acknowledge mankind's limited understanding, but Scripture does indicate that at least for a time, before Adam and Eve sinned, there was an unbroken fellowship between them and God. (Free from evil and the brokenness of sin) The Bible also says numerous times that God saw what He had created and it was "good."

1st to be clear I'm not saying God is the author at all.

I'm saying lucifer is.

lucifer was allowed in the garden, so was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

for there to be knowledge of evil, it existed before the tree.

When the angelic were created I believe.

Question, can God create God?

What is His first commandment?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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The question had been whether or not God was the author/creator of Evil. Somehow, over the course of some posts, it's become that God USES the Evil in the world for his purposes. I should think that we would all realize that those two propositions are not identical.

I was merely pointing out that when God says he creates evil it doesn't always have to be what WE perceive as evil. Because God did call the Babylonian invasion EVIL.
 
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