Question for rapture people

[summerville]

Then Jesus' Mission failed? Matthew 15:24

Maybe so..

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The lost sheep of Israel trampled Jerusalem and caused the destruction of the Temple.

I think its a mistake to read Jesus into every Torah verse.

They expected an anointed warrior king like King David who would vanquish their enemies and send the Romans packing. The Jews of Judea had pretty good relationships with the Romans and wanted peace.

 

[summerville]

That is where the believing Jews fled after Titus temporarily broke the siege to go back to Rome to see His Father become Cesar. The remembered the Words of Jesus in Luke and fled across the Jordan to Pella!

They will flee to Petra after the antichrist enters the temple and declares himself God and starts all out genocide against Israel.

Revelation says there is no Temple.. Jesus is the Temple.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation says there is no Temple.. Jesus is the Temple.

A somewhat small disagreement:

Revelation 21 says that not "Revelation".

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The timing is important.

 

[summerville]

A somewhat small disagreement:

Revelation 21 says that not "Revelation".

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The timing is important.

The early date for Revelation is 75 AD.. so the Temple was already destroyed.

They did try to build a third Temple circa 300 AD but fire and earthquakes prevailed against construction.

 

[Davy]

Wrong again. REv. 22 is the New Jerusalem, the holy city that came down from heaven. Why?

for it is where the Father and Son are. Also it is where teh tree of life and the river of life are.

This is in Rev.22, and it is NOT the new Jerusalem timing, simply because the wicked are still outside the gates of the city...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

So not all Rev.22 Scripture is about the new Jerusalem.

I love the KJV, but for a standard size translation, the amplified is the best. Otherwise it is the 10 volume Kittels English translation of the Greek NT.

I have learned to rely on the KJV, even though my BibleSoft program contains many different Bible versions. I have a Green's Interlinear, but that's about as deep as I go into manuscripts.

You are confusing the rapture with the second physical coming of Jesus to the Earth.

The rapture is the great snatching away of the church to go to heaven to stand before the bema seat judgment and receive her rewards and then marry the Lamb! Jesus does not come to earth and it does not even say if anyone sees HIm coming. Also the trumpet is not heard in the actual second coming while it is in the rapture.

No, I am not confusing the 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus. There is only 2 times our Lord Jesus is shown in the OT appearing, not 3. (Zechariah 9:9-10). Same thing by Paul in Hebrews 9:28 about Jesus appearing to the Church who look for Him a "second time".

Christ does not hand out the rewards until His return. This is shown in Rev.5 even though the pre-trib rapture school wrongly teaches that's about the Church raptured to Heaven.

When Jesus comes again physically, it is to establish the 1,000 year kingdom! He gathers all before him and separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep go into paradise earth, and the goats to hell to await the lake of fire.

That is true that the future "thousand years" of Rev.20 begins at Christ's return, and that happens on the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night". The pre-trib school used to teach that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" to rapture the Church. So how can they mix up that "as a thief in the night" timing which is only to happen on the last day of this world, like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.5?

Once again you practice the false "close enough is good enough" fulfillment of biblical prophecy!

Jesus comes from Bozrah/petra where he breaks the siege of the antichrist to wipe out all Israel.

Isaiah 63:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Revelation 19:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

It is very possible that after he destroys the armies of the antichrist at Petra, he returns to heaven to gather the saints and angels and returns and then ascends the Mount of Olives as stated in Zechariah 14.

You apparently think with your fleshy mind, and believe our Lord Jesus is going to literally travel around the earth to slay the wicked personally. Those events will occur very quickly, at an instant, like God showed through His OT prophets, and like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 about being changed at the twinkling of an eye. Those events happen on the 7th trumpet and 7th vial and 6th seal.

But just prior to that, but immediately after the tribulation, Jesus descends from Heaven with the raised asleep saints, and His saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him, and that is on His way to Jerusalem per Zech.14 and Acts 1.

As a matter of fact, Acts 1 reveals He returns in like manner as He ascended to Heaven, and that's how we are to look for Him coming, in the clouds. And that is when every eye shall see Him, per Revelation 1:7, even those who pierced Him. So automatically that means there is no secret coming to rapture the Church. He gathers His Church the same day that the wicked see Him coming in the clouds.

 

[nolidad]

Both Pella and Petra are in Jordan, but they are not the same place. The followers of Jesus fled to Pella in 66 AD to avoid the tribulation so it couldn't have been world wide. As Josephus describes the time of the 42 months it was a horror of famine, death and disease unlike the world had ever seen.

The Jews routed the Romans in 66 AD.. the zealots, sicarri, Galileans, Idumians continued their rages in Jerusalem and the countryside.

In 70 AD when Titus returned with his Roman garrisons he also commanded troops from nearby countries in the Roman Empire of the first century.. So he also commanded Arabs, Syrians and Egyptian troops.. Israel was surrounded by enemy armies.

I know this as well!

The Jews won some skirmishes. However once titus came back after the coronation of his father- it all went bad for Israel.

 

[nolidad]

Then Jesus' Mission failed? Matthew 15:24

This is in Rev.22, and it is NOT the new Jerusalem timing, simply because the wicked are still outside the gates of the city...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

So not all Rev.22 Scripture is about the new Jerusalem.

So you now have two cities with teh river of life and the tree of life in them?

I have learned to rely on the KJV, even though my BibleSoft program contains many different Bible versions. I have a Green's Interlinear, but that's about as deep as I go into manuscripts.

Well with just those tools, then you have limited your ability to learn the scriptures. We english speaking gentiles have to study harder to learnt he riches of Scriptures.

No, I am not confusing the 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus. There is only 2 times our Lord Jesus is shown in the OT appearing, not 3. (Zechariah 9:9-10). Same thing by Paul in Hebrews 9:28 about Jesus appearing to the Church who look for Him a "second time".

Christ does not hand out the rewards until His return. This is shown in Rev.5 even though the pre-trib rapture school wrongly teaches that's about the Church raptured to Heaven.

Wrong again!!!

Revelation 19
Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


The church gets married and has her rewards (the fine linen) before Jesus returns. We are his bride befoe He returns! And the wedding takes place in heaven and the marriage supper takes place on earth!

That is true that the future "thousand years" of Rev.20 begins at Christ's return, and that happens on the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night". The pre-trib school used to teach that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" to rapture the Church. So how can they mix up that "as a thief in the night" timing which is only to happen on the last day of this world, like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.5?

This is incorrect again again! We know that exactly 7 years after the antichrist confirms the covenant with Israel- Jesus returns!

As for the rapture- that is the thief in the night event!

 

[nolidad]

Then Jesus' Mission failed? Matthew 15:24

Only according to your allegorical thinking!

But if you consider Israel to be the church you have some serious biblical issues.

Romans 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Teh church is going after its own righteousness??

Romans 11:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Part of the church is in blindness ? who are the gentiles in your allegorical opinion??

Acts 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

How can the church get a kingdom when the church hasn't been born yet??

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So not all Christians are Christians???

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

The church is not saved???????????????????

Jesus never fails in HIs mission! He just doesn't work accordiong to peoples allegorical timetables and impositions on the Scriptures!

 

[nolidad]

Gospel of Luke
At a Glance
Gospel
Genre:
(4/5) ****
Reliability of Dating:
(4/5) ****
Length of Text:
Greek
Original Language:
Ancient Translations:

Modern Translations:
English

Estimated Range of Dating: 80-130 A.D.

The Gospel of Luke assumes that you know the identity of Bernice.

This scholar shows your faulty scholar wrong!

Once again faulty dating from modernist critics of the Scriptures who seek to discredit the word of God!


Tony Mariot, Researcher Biblical Antiquities at University of Oxford (2009-present)
Answered Apr 22, 2018 · Author has 919 answers and 1.5m answer views

The Gospel of Luke does not identify its author. From Luke 1:1-4 and Acts 1:1-3, it is clear that the same author wrote both Luke and Acts, addressing both to “the most excellent Theophilus,” who was possibly a Roman dignitary. The tradition from the earliest days of the church has been that Luke, a physician and a close companion of the Apostle Paul, wrote both Luke and Acts (Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11). This would make Luke the only Gentile to pen any books of Scripture.

The Gospel of Luke was likely written between A.D. 58 and 65.


Gospel of Luke

 

[nolidad]

That isn't found in the bible. The AC persecutes Christians not those of Judaism.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Christians are gone from the earth.

Anyone saved at this time is colloquially called a tribulation saint for they are not part of teh body of Christ!

But as for who the antichrist persecutes- it is clearly Jews first and Christians as well.

The seed of the woman is Israel. The woman is from Joseph' dream and represents Israel symbolically!

Gen. 37:
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Remember it was Israel and not the church that gave birth to the Messiah!

Also the Matt portion of the olivet discourse clearly shows Israel as the target of the antichrists wrath

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

 

[nolidad]

Revelation says there is no Temple.. Jesus is the Temple.

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Mt. 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Bible says differently! After the millenial kingdom- Jesus and the Father are the temple in te new jerusalem, but during the tribulation week- Israel has a rebuilt temple!

 

[Davy]

So you now have two cities with teh river of life and the tree of life in them?

What you haven't understood is how Revelation 22:14-15 is "thousand years" timing, an event that goes with the events in Rev.20 about Christ's millennial reign over the nations, a la Zechariah 14. Apparently you like many pre-tribbers have the bad habit of thinking everything written in Revelation happens in the order that it is written. The OT prophets are written the same way. There's something like a 2,000+ year gap between Isaiah 61:1 and the last phrase of 61:2. Same thing between Zechariah 9:9-10.

This section of Zechariah 14, and a latter section, is about the time right after Christ's return to Jerusalem with His elect to reign for the "thousand years". Notice the earth changes, and reference to God's River of the Waters of Life manifesting then...

Zech 14:6-11
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
KJV

Well with just those tools, then you have limited your ability to learn the scriptures. We english speaking gentiles have to study harder to learnt he riches of Scriptures.

God is Who gives understanding in His Word, not man. This is why no man can make a private claim on understanding in God's Holy Writ either, and that is exactly the claim you are 'trying' to make. You can study letters all your life, and without God's help by The Holy Spirit your understanding will just go around in circles. As good a Hebrew scholar Apostle Paul was, and yet he held the coats of those who stoned the prophet Stephen! And you think you're better than Paul, that you can't be deceived with all your education?? You make of yourself more than what you really are. You are haughty, puffed up.

Wrong again!!!

Revelation 19
Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


The church gets married and has her rewards (the fine linen) before Jesus returns. We are his bride befoe He returns! And the wedding takes place in heaven and the marriage supper takes place on earth!

You are so spiritually 'drunken' on man's doctrine, just like Apostle Paul warned in 1 Thessalonians 5, that you cannot even understand those phrases I put in 'red' above. Those show those Rev.19:1-9 events are AFTER Jesus has returned and is reigning! Starting at Rev.19:11 to the end of that chapter is about Jesus' 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord".

What you have missed, again no doubt because of the bad habit of not recognizing the order of events, is how the Rev.19:1-9 verses are a future look forward after the tribulation. And then the Rev.19:11 forward events is the timing just before the end of the tribulation.

Furthermore, the wedding supper parable examples Jesus gave shows those who were called but refused to come being cast out to the "outer darkness". That is what that place outside the gates of the city is in Rev.22:14-15. It's about Millennium timing, not new heavens and new earth timing. The new heavens and new earth does not begin until AFTER the future "lake of fire" event when death and hell are thrown into it and destroyed.

 

[keras]

So not all Christians are Christians???

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

The church is not saved???????????????????

Jesus never fails in HIs mission! He just doesn't work accordiong to peoples allegorical timetables and impositions on the Scriptures!

Only born again Christians are true Christians. Jesus will say to all who purport to be Christian, but are not: I never knew you.

Paul prayed for his Jewish brethren, but they never responded to his Message. They still don't.
Your belief of a general Jewish salvation is unfounded and is not prophesied to happen. Romans 9:27
The Jews are the House of Judah, Jesus knew they would reject Him, but He sent out the Apostles; THEY were successful and we Christians are the result. WE are the House of Israel, spiritually as well as physically in many cases. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:14-16

 

[ewq1938]

Christians are gone from the earth.

Not according to the scriptures I posted. The furthest the raptured saints get from the Earth is the clouds of Earth. They return to the Earth with Christ as a united group. Before the rapture they were spread out around the world. The purpose of the rapture is to unite them in one place not to take them to heaven.

 

[summerville]

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Mt. 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Bible says differently! After the millenial kingdom- Jesus and the Father are the temple in te new jerusalem, but during the tribulation week- Israel has a rebuilt temple!

Yep.. but by Revelation 20 or 21 there is no Temple.

 

[summerville]

I know this as well!

The Jews won some skirmishes. However once titus came back after the coronation of his father- it all went bad for Israel.

Titus withdrew from 66AD to 70AD.

Visions and Dreams
While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions that brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams that were the spark that started the false teaching of British-Israelism. Not long afterwards, Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines supposedly from God that were much at variance with one another and contrary to biblical teachings. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, ‘let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them’; you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proves [tests] you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

• Deuteronomy 13:1–3
  

Chapter 17: The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin

 

[nolidad]

What you haven't understood is how Revelation 22:14-15 is "thousand years" timing, an event that goes with the events in Rev.20 about Christ's millennial reign over the nations, a la Zechariah 14. Apparently you like many pre-tribbers have the bad habit of thinking everything written in Revelation happens in the order that it is written. The OT prophets are written the same way. There's something like a 2,000+ year gap between Isaiah 61:1 and the last phrase of 61:2. Same thing between Zechariah 9:9-10.

So you are saying that JOhn reveals the new heavens and earth in his vision and has the great white thron judgment in his vision, then goes back to the millenial kingdom? Also you are claiming that the river of life and tree of life are on the millenial earth before the new Jerusalem comes down with the river of life and tree of life?

I await your evidence.

God is Who gives understanding in His Word, not man. This is why no man can make a private claim on understanding in God's Holy Writ either, and that is exactly the claim you are 'trying' to make. You can study letters all your life, and without God's help by The Holy Spirit your understanding will just go around in circles. As good a Hebrew scholar Apostle Paul was, and yet he held the coats of those who stoned the prophet Stephen! And you think you're better than Paul, that you can't be deceived with all your education?? You make of yourself more than what you really are. You are haughty, puffed up.

Wow! So maybe we shouldn't learn how to read. Maybe we shouldn't learn grammar. Maybe we shouldn't learn what words mean- just trust the Holy Spirit to tellus what God preserved inHis Word! I wonder why the inspired writers followed rules fo grammar then.

All your defense is is to blame the Holy Spirit for you defining scripture the way you wish!

I admit freely we need the Holy Spirit to understand the gospel, but God does not expect us to be idiots in education. Otherwise, why did he invent grammar and language and tenses and moods etc.

You are so spiritually 'drunken' on man's doctrine, just like Apostle Paul warned in 1 Thessalonians 5, that you cannot even understand those phrases I put in 'red' above. Those show those Rev.19:1-9 events are AFTER Jesus has returned and is reigning! Starting at Rev.19:11 to the end of that chapter is about Jesus' 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord".

What you have missed, again no doubt because of the bad habit of not recognizing the order of events, is how the Rev.19:1-9 verses are a future look forward after the tribulation. And then the Rev.19:11 forward events is the timing just before the end of the tribulation.

Furthermore, the wedding supper parable examples Jesus gave shows those who were called but refused to come being cast out to the "outer darkness". That is what that place outside the gates of the city is in Rev.22:14-15. It's about Millennium timing, not new heavens and new earth timing. The new heavens and new earth does not begin until AFTER the future "lake of fire" event when death and hell are thrown into it and destroyed.

Well forgive me for not knowing you had a hot line to Paul and have special insight to the secret meanings of what he wrote!

So what you are saying is that God intentionally mixed up the timing of events in one chapter so that only those secret initiates would get the inside info as to the meaning? That makes it easy to make the bible sa yanything you wish it to!

But as most people read in a straightforward manner as God designed us to- we unitiated believers in the secret you have just look at it and see the wedding in heaven and then Jesus returning after the wedding!

I await you r evidence to defend this after and before retranslation of Rev. 19.

Still waiting for you to tell us why God would throw a beast governmental system into the lake of fire as it is just a concpet and who the identity of the false prophet is seeing you deny the lamb with horns is the false prophet.

 

[nolidad]

Only born again Christians are true Christians. Jesus will say to all who purport to be Christian, but are not: I never knew you.

Paul prayed for his Jewish brethren, but they never responded to his Message. They still don't.
Your belief of a general Jewish salvation is unfounded and is not prophesied to happen. Romans 9:27
The Jews are the House of Judah, Jesus knew they would reject Him, but He sent out the Apostles; THEY were successful and we Christians are the result. WE are the House of Israel, spiritually as well as physically in many cases. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:14-16

It is a given when we here talk about Christians we are referring to true Christians.

But sorry, it was you and not I nor the Word of God that declares openly that Israel is now th eChurch.

So th etentribes that were scattered under Sennacherib are no longer Israel???

And the prophecy In Exekiel that says in the last days God would rejoin the houses of Israel and Judah is false?

And are you saying that prophecy in Jeremiah is only for the 2 tribes of Judah and the church and the ten tribes of Israel are excluded?

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

Why do you believe that when the normal reading by one who is seeking God would conclude that God is making a covenant with Judah and Israel and that its fulfillment is still to come???

God never made the Mosaic Covenant with the church!

Do you also accept that part of the body of Christ is hardened now until the pleroma of Gentiles (who are they anyway according to you?) then all the church will be saved? If not why not? You said the church is Israel!

 

[nolidad]

Not according to the scriptures I posted. The furthest the raptured saints get from the Earth is the clouds of Earth. They return to the Earth with Christ as a united group. Before the rapture they were spread out around the world. The purpose of the rapture is to unite them in one place not to take them to heaven.

Not according to Scripture!

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What is the purpose of gthering believers in the clouds just to have us come right back down?

But as we are the espoused of Jesus and we are promised to be married to him, we see why Jesus meets us in the clouds.

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

We are the much people in heaven!

We went through the bema judgment and had our works tried and rewards given and our robes of righteousness awarded.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Then we marry the bridegroom and return with Him!

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[nolidad]

Yep.. but by Revelation 20 or 21 there is no Temple.

Well whether or not the third temple (or tribulation temple) is destroyed duiorng the tribulation is not known.

But we do know that Ezekiel 37 promises a temple during the reign of Jesus and Ezekiel 40:5-43:27 describes the construction. The second temple did not fit this, and the prophecy definitely says the Lord will reign there.

No animal sacrifices will take place