Question for rapture people

[yeshuasavedme]

...
So there is a lot more dynamic going on to say that being caught up or "raptured" (which is from the Latin translation of 'harpazo' which is 'caught up') will not and cannot happen. There is a lot of scripture that makes no sense if it is not a reality. Timing, duration, etc are all on the table for discussion, but that it will not or cannot happen isn't.

Just want to point out the OT Hebrew name for the "rapture " is transliterated to English as "laqach".
Enoch was "laqach" to heaven.
Elijah was "laqach" to heaven.
David said YHWH would "laqach" his body from the grave.
God said He would "laqach" the congregation before the time of the great tribulation.
It means to remove from one place to another.
To go get.
To fetch.
To marry.
The first usage of it is the "rapture" of Adam, from earth below to the third heaven, above, where Paradise is.
Gen 2:15

And the LORD God took/laqach the Adam/man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

לָקַח /laqach: to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth);
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[Copperhead]

Must be a different version than mine. Mine concurs with what yeshuasavedme posted.

Enoch 50:1-2
In those days a change will take place for the holy and elect, and the light of days will abide upon them, and glory and honor will turn to the holy. On that day of tribulation on which evil will gather against the sinners, the righteous will overcome in the name of the Lord of Spirits. He will cause the others to witness it that they may repent and cease the works of their hands.

 

[Copperhead]

Better go argue with your brother Dr. Ice, because he obviously does not share your perspective.

He isn't my literal brother. Spiritual one I suppose, so if you are a believer, he is your brother also. Swallow that one.

 

[keras]

Well, will have to disagree.

So there is a lot more dynamic going on to say that being caught up or "raptured" (which is from the Latin translation of 'harpazo' which is 'caught up') will not and cannot happen. There is a lot of scripture that makes no sense if it is not a reality. Timing, duration, etc are all on the table for discussion, but that it will not or cannot happen isn't.

Timing and duration of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is irrelevant unless it can be proved that God does intend to take His people to heaven.

The ONLY prophecy that seems to mean a kind of 'rapture', is 1 Thessalonians 4:17, where Paul says; Those who remain alive when Jesus come down from heaven, will rise to meet Him in the clouds.
This plainly and undeniably takes place at the Return of Jesus and in no way means a removal to heaven, or any change to our bodies.

 

[jgr]

He isn't my literal brother. Spiritual one I suppose, so if you are a believer, he is your brother also. Swallow that one.

I agree with him. Easy to swallow.

 

[Copperhead]

Timing and duration of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is irrelevant unless it can be proved that God does intend to take His people to heaven.

If that is not the intent, they why is Yeshua preparing rooms, chambers, etc in His Father's house, which I would guess is heaven? The only other place I read called the "Father's House" was the Temple in Jerusalem. Well, if we count just the believers in China, there is no way to cram them in a Temple in Jerusalem if there was one. So using the process of elimination, that only leaves the Father's House which is in heaven.

Paul states that our citizenship is in heaven. It seems strange that we would never be there at some point. If my citizenship was in, say, the UK, it would make sense that at some point I actually were in the UK.

And Yeshua did say that the reason of His housing project was for us. Seems reasonable to assume then that at some point the redeemed are gathered in heaven.

I have agreed with the idea that it is not our permanent abode. Just for a period until the mess is over on earth. Then we are back here for the 1000 year kingdom. But it is conceivable that those chambers would be used again during the period when earth is passed away and the new earth comes in. There has to be some place where we are residing when that is going on.

And I guess it depends on what determines is enough "proof". Ask any attorney, and the circumstantial evidence is enough to get a conviction on the matter of the righteous being gathered in the Father's House in heaven at some point. Dr. John Warrick Montgomery, practicing attorney in both U.S. and UK, 11 earned degrees, Professor of Law in both U.S. and UK, and a respected Christian Theologian and premier Apologetics expert would agree.

 

[Copperhead]

I agree with him. Easy to swallow.

On everything he has to say? Still agree with him? Or is it just this one issue? That's ok. I don't agree with him when there are many scholar of documents of antiquity that also disagree with him. I don't agree with everyone who comments on the various issues of eschatology, as I am sure you don't either.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Revelation 12:6-17 tells about the Christians during the final 1260 days of this Church age. Which will be the time of the Great Tribulation; the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.

They, we; are NOT taken to heaven, as I have proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.
Those who prove their faithfulness to God, will be taken to a place of safety on earth and nurtured for that 1260 days. Those Christians who failed to trust completely in God, must remain, Revelation 12:17, and it will be some of them who will become the martyrs as per Revelation 20:4.

These truths are plain and undeniable, the 'rapture to heaven' will not and cannot happen.

Isa 51:16
And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Your statements are denied in the Word of God, as false, not true.

Adam was raptured/removed/laqach from the earth below and set in Paradise, in the third heaven. Genesis 2:15

Paradise is in the third heaven. 2Co 12:2, 2Co 12:4.
The Tree of Life is in the third heaven, in Paradise. Revelation Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Adam was cast out of Paradise, to earth below, and cherubim with flaming swords guarded the entry, lest the Adam creation enter, eat of the tree of life, and live forever in the defiled corrupted, unclean garment of human being flesh which he wore after he sold his kingdom into sin, corruption, and death,
and so, could never be born again
and be made a son of God by adoption of spirit and flesh,
by the cleansing of the soul,
by the Atonement.

That is why the Kinsman/Redeemer was promised to come, and to undo the curse, by His death, and to restore all things, in Genesis 3:15.

Enoch is in heaven, in a changed garment of flesh, and rules with the holy watcher angels there. He said so in his writings.
Then, we see Enoch -a real human being- come as a messenger to Daniel (I fully believe he is Enoch) in Daniel chapter 10:21, showing Daniel all the things which are "written in the Scripture of truth in heaven", about his people for the last days -the literal Hebrew says so.

Then, we see Enoch in Revelation as one of the angels/messengers (angel means "messenger")coming out of the temple in heaven with one of the bowls of wrath to judge earth with, in the tribulation.
He is a human being, wearing the garments of the redeemed and glorified human being.
Enoch read all the Scripture written in heaven, about all things to come, and he shows John the things to come.
John wants to bow and worship him two different times, but he tells John not to do that....and tells John that he is a fellow prophet, and a human being brother.
Rev 22:9
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Then we see the human being elders on thrones in heaven,ruling there, who worship the Lamb who redeemed them and gave them eternal life -the crowns of gold..

 

[ewq1938]

Adam was raptured/removed/laqach from the earth below and set in Paradise, in the third heaven. Genesis 2:15

Adam was created in Eden then a garden was planted and Adam was placed there. It was a place on the Earth not in heaven.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

 

[keras]

If that is not the intent, they why is Yeshua preparing rooms, chambers, etc in His Father's house, which I would guess is heaven? The only other place I read called the "Father's House" was the Temple in Jerusalem. Well, if we count just the believers in China, there is no way to cram them in a Temple in Jerusalem if there was one. So using the process of elimination, that only leaves the Father's House which is in heaven.

Paul states that our citizenship is in heaven. It seems strange that we would never be there at some point. If my citizenship was in, say, the UK, it would make sense that at some point I actually were in the UK.

And Yeshua did say that the reason of His housing project was for us. Seems reasonable to assume then that at some point the redeemed are gathered in heaven.

I have agreed with the idea that it is not our permanent abode. Just for a period until the mess is over on earth. Then we are back here for the 1000 year kingdom. But it is conceivable that those chambers would be used again during the period when earth is passed away and the new earth comes in. There has to be some place where we are residing when that is going on.

And I guess it depends on what determines is enough "proof". Ask any attorney, and the circumstantial evidence is enough to get a conviction on the matter of the righteous being gathered in the Father's House in heaven at some point. Dr. John Warrick Montgomery, practicing attorney in both U.S. and UK, 11 earned degrees, Professor of Law in both U.S. and UK, and a respected Christian Theologian and premier Apologetics expert would agree.

John 14:2 says Jesus is preparing a place for us Christians.
Revelation 21:1-3 Tells us when that place will come to the earth, for His faithful people to live in forever.

Citizenship, as Paul uses that word in Philippians 3:20, is quite plainly in a spiritual sense, as we expect our Deliverer to come from heaven to us.
In verse 21, Paul prophesies our body change that will happen to all whose names are found in the Book of Life at the GWT Judgment.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Adam was created in Eden then a garden was planted and Adam was placed there. It was a place on the Earth not in heaven.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

When I was first saved, I also thought Eden was on the earth, itself, before the flood, but I have spent my life time as a Christian always wanting to know where, what, when and how, so to speak, about so many things about the things the Word speaks of, as I always devoured the Word; and, then, many years ago, but after I joined CF, I read a verse that just kept repeating itself in me through the days, as a prayer...I didn't plan it, it was just the way it grabbed me: "Open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy "law (Torah/Teaching)" , was the verse; and He did.
I began to "see" things that were there all the time, but tradition blinded my eyes from seeing.
Where Eden is, and where the Garden/Paradise and the Tree of Life is, was one of those things I "saw" that was there all the time.
Paradise is in the third heaven. The Garden is eastward in Mount Eden, in heaven; an atmospheric river comes out of heaven and waters the garden, and then becomes the heads of 4 rivers on earth, below. Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon. Look it up!

Paul was caught up to the third heaven, to Paradise. He says so.
Jesus says the Tree of Life is still in the midst of Paradise. Paradise is in the third heaven.
Before the tower of Babel rebellion, I believe Mount Eden was seen from earth below. After the fall of the tower, I believe God has blinded the eyes of we on earth, to not see that realm. He sometimes opens it, and people do see it.
Abraham saw the City of God afar off. Enoch also saw it and desired to go there, and God granted his desire.

Adam was cast out of the Garden, and back down to the earth and was forbidden to ever return lest he eat of the Tree of Life and live in the defiled garment of flesh and be a never dying worm in flesh and unclean, with no hope for cleansing, condemned to the lake of fire, and so, never metamorphosing into the glorious New Man image.

We have to be born again because, in Adam, we are defiled in flesh, dead to the glory in our spirit, and filthy in our Adam vessel flesh, and in this condition we cannot enter into the glory, into the City of God in heaven, and are only candidates for the Lake of Fire and darkness, forever, eternally undying worms in our resurrected, unchanged bodies of human being flesh that Jesus died to ransom back...for Himself.

We all will live in our bodies in either the regenerated form, elementally changed to the immortal image of the Son of God, and "plant the heavens", as YHWH says, as His temple for glory not made with hands, or be castaways in the darkness of the Lake of Fire forever, with no hope of change.

2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Paradise in the third heaven

Rev 2:7 The Tree of Life still in the Paradise of God, in the third heaven.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[ewq1938]

When I was first saved, I also thought Eden was on the earth

Eden is on the Earth and the garden God planted was in east Eden. Many Earthly rivers flowed there.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Eden is on the Earth and the garden God planted was in east Eden. Many Earthly rivers flowed there.

I do not believe you read the Scripture proofs of Paradise and Mount Eden in the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Paradise in the third heaven

Rev 2:7 The Tree of Life still in the Paradise of God, in the third heaven.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Paradise is in the third heaven. The Garden is eastward in Mount Eden, in heaven; an atmospheric river comes out of heaven and waters the garden, and then becomes the heads of 4 rivers on earth, below. Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon. Look it up!

Paul was caught up to the third heaven, to Paradise. He says so.
Jesus says the Tree of Life is still in the midst of Paradise. Paradise is in the third heaven.

atmospheric rivers today:
What are atmospheric rivers? | National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

atmospheric river at beginning of creation:
Gen 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

 

[ewq1938]

Gen 2 is clear that Eden is on the Earth and so is the garden in Eden. Neither Eden nor it's garden are/were located in heaven. There is also no such thing as "Mount Eden".

I do not believe you read the Scripture proofs of Paradise and Mount Eden in the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Paradise in the third heaven

Rev 2:7 The Tree of Life still in the Paradise of God, in the third heaven.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Paradise is in the third heaven. The Garden is eastward in Mount Eden, in heaven; an atmospheric river comes out of heaven and waters the garden, and then becomes the heads of 4 rivers on earth, below. Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon. Look it up!

Paul was caught up to the third heaven, to Paradise. He says so.
Jesus says the Tree of Life is still in the midst of Paradise. Paradise is in the third heaven.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Gen 2 is clear that Eden is on the Earth and so is the garden in Eden. Neither Eden nor it's garden are/were located in heaven. There is also no such thing as "Mount Eden".

Ezekiel 28:13-17
You were in Eden, the garden of God; ...
You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones....
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you...
So I threw you to the earth;

 

[ewq1938]

Ezekiel 28:13-17
You were in Eden, the garden of God; ...
You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones....
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you...
So I threw you to the earth;

In the passage Eden and the holy Mount are different places. The point of the passage is that this person had been in all the great places God had created yet he fell from these things due to sin.

 

[Copperhead]

John 14:2 says Jesus is preparing a place for us Christians.
Revelation 21:1-3 Tells us when that place will come to the earth, for His faithful people to live in forever.

The major problem with that is in what Yeshua said in the passage.....

John 14:3 (NKJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

There is nothing in the collective passage that implies what He is building, He brings it to earth. The simple grammatical structure implies that He will come and gather us to go to that place. Not bring it to us.

 

[ewq1938]

The major problem with that is in what Yeshua said in the passage.....

John 14:3 (NKJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

There is nothing in the collective passage that implies what He is building, He brings it to earth. The simple grammatical structure implies that He will come and gather us to go to that place. Not bring it to us.

And nothing there about taking anyone anywhere either. He went to prepare a place. Then he says he would come again which is the second coming and says we will be received and we will be where Christ is. That would be the Earth not heaven.

 

[Copperhead]

Ezekiel 28:13-17
You were in Eden, the garden of God; ...
You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones....
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you...
So I threw you to the earth;

Interesting. Seems to match up with.....

Revelation 2:7 (NKJV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'

 

[Copperhead]

And nothing there about taking anyone anywhere either. He went to prepare a place. Then he says he would come again which is the second coming and says we will be received and we will be where Christ is. That would be the Earth not heaven.

That is assuming that the gathering and the physical coming of Messiah to earth is the same event. I don't see it that way.

It really makes no sense, when one compares to Matthew 25 the sheep and goat judgement. If the righteous are gathered immediately unto Yeshua as He returns, then who would later be judged righteous when in, Matthew 25, Yeshua gathers the nations and separates them out per Joel 3? That would involve two sets of righteous. And why would they be separate groups... one group gathered as He returns, and one group later after He returns and judges the nations?

A post trib position has a tough time getting around that. It requires some allegorical scripture gymnastics to the Nth degree. But if there is the righteous that are 'caught up' at a earlier time prior to Yeshua's physical, earthly return, then that would then provide the gap necessary for some from the nations to turn to Yeshua after seeing that event and they would also be considered righteous, then He can separate them out after His return.