Preterism

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

The first resurrection Rev.20:5 says that people are blessed and holy, are the wicked blessed and holy? NO, so it would make sense that they will not be part of the first resurrection. People that will be part of the first resurrection comes in three parts 1).the resurrection of Christ (the firstfruits-1Cor.15:23, Rev.1:5)...2).the reusrrection of the church (the dead in Christ-1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.4:16)...3).the reusrrection of the Old Testament and Tribulation saints (Re.20:4; Isaiah.26:19; Dan.12:2). The rest of the dead (unbelievers) lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5a) they will be raised in the second resurrection which is the second death [v.6].

We disagree here a bit. I'll run thru what I see the first resurrection as being. ( not counting the resurrection of Jesus,that was in 33 AD or thereabouts.)
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This tells us that those in the first resurrection reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Who are they? Here are some who reigned with christ for 1000 years.

Rev 20
. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Another possibility are the 144000.

Rev 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

I consider these as possible because at the time John saw this, the judgment haddened occured and yet here are 144000 with Jesus.

The judgment is talked about later in verse:

7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.

I mention the above to cover off all angles because now we come to our old friend Daniel. Daniel was not beheaded for his belief in Jesus, Daniel was not in the great tribulation to get any marks, Daniel was just one of the dead 'sleeping in the dirt.'

The bible tells us that the rest of the dead would not be raised until after the 1000 years.

Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Note: The NIV places this verse in brackets which clears up the meaning.

Daniel was one of the 'rest of the dead.
Daniel would not be in the first resurrection.

Those who slept in the dirt were going to be raised sometime around the great tribulation Daniel 12 tells us, but there is still more.

1 Thess 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Here Paul tells us they would not be raised prior to Daniel who had 'fallen asleep'.
To summarize:

For the above reasons I do not see the first resurrection including the three groups you mention, only those defined in Rev 20.

I do not see any extra people being involved in the 1000 year reign with Christ other than those of the first resurrection.

I do not agree that it is only unbelievers in the second resurrection. Again because I see Daniel as being part of that resurrection because Gabriel or whoever told him he would be.

This gets long so I'll stop and wait for your comments.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesu,

John 5:25 could be describing Matt.27:50-54 which says many not all of the saints that were in their graves and slept arose.

John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Those few that are said to have come out of the graves later died again. The conversation here in John 5 is talking about something much more permanent. And it is talking about judment as well.

Justme

 

[4Jesus]

The first resurrection Rev.20:5 says that people are blessed and holy, are the wicked blessed and holy? NO, so it would make sense that they will not be part of the first resurrection. People that will be part of the first resurrection comes in three parts 1).the resurrection of Christ (the firstfruits-1Cor.15:23, Rev.1:5)...2).the reusrrection of the church (the dead in Christ-1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.4:16)...3).the resurrection of the Old Testament and Tribulation saints (Re.20:4; Isaiah.26:19; Dan.12:2). The rest of the dead (unbelievers) lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5a) they will be raised in the second resurrection which is the second death [v.6].

We disagree here a bit. I'll run thru what I see the first resurrection as being. ( not counting the resurrection of Jesus,that was in 33 AD or thereabouts.)
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This tells us that those in the first resurrection reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Who are they? Here are some who reigned with christ for 1000 years.

Since Rev.19 depicts the marriage supper of the bride to the Lamb, which is the Church to Christ, it shows this already having happened and they are alive in heaven. Since [20:6] makes the point that those of the first resurrection are blessed and holy, the Church, OT saints, Tribulation martyrs, all these will only be resurrected once but at different times since [20:6] absolutely makes the point that there will be second death, these people cannot be part of that, it is reserved for wicked (the dead of all ages). Daniel would be resurrected during this time that is close to the end in God's timetable because the next event is Armageddon (the end).

Rev 20
. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Another possibility are the 144000.

Rev 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

I consider these as possible because at the time John saw this, the judgment haddened occured and yet here are 144000 with Jesus.

The judgment is talked about later in verse:

7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.

Just because John is describing the the martyred saints this doesn't exclude the Church (bride) chapter 19. "The Hour Of Judgement" is for the beast and the false prophet which will be sent to the lake of fire where they will be during the Millenniel reign (thousand years) of Jesus Christ on earth. The final judgement is depicted in 20:15 when all the wicked that are not in the "Book of Life" will join them awaiting satan after his final assault in Armageddon. People that did not head the Gospel in the millennium will go there also.

I mention the above to cover off all angles because now we come to our old friend Daniel. Daniel was not beheaded for his belief in Jesus, Daniel was not in the great tribulation to get any marks, Daniel was just one of the dead 'sleeping in the dirt.'

The bible tells us that the rest of the dead would not be raised until after the 1000 years.

Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Note: The NIV places this verse in brackets which clears up the meaning.

Daniel was one of the 'rest of the dead.
Daniel would not be in the first resurrection.

Those who slept in the dirt were going to be raised sometime around the great tribulation Daniel 12 tells us, but there is still more.

"The rest of the dead" are (unbelievers) at the second resurrection described in [20:12,13]. Again, are wicked people "blessed and holy"? [v.6]. Will blessed and holy people experience a "second death?" [v.6].

1 Thess 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Here Paul tells us they would not be raised prior to Daniel who had 'fallen asleep'.
To summarize:

For the above reasons I do not see the first resurrection including the three groups you mention, only those defined in Rev 20.

I do not see any extra people being involved in the 1000 year reign with Christ other than those of the first resurrection.

I do not agree that it is only unbelievers in the second resurrection. Again because I see Daniel as being part of that resurrection because Gabriel or whoever told him he would be.

This gets long so I'll stop and wait for your comments.

Justme

Again the believer's hope (1Thess.4:14; 1Cor.15:20-23). Verse [15.] only points out that the living have no advantage over those that have died believing in Christ at His second coming. This is meant for the Church Age believers, was Daniel living during the Church Age?

 

[parousia70]

I just thought I'd add this:

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead

Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became

Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection.

 

[4Jesus]

Hi 4jesu,

John 5:25 could be describing Matt.27:50-54 which says many not all of the saints that were in their graves and slept arose.

John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Those few that are said to have come out of the graves later died again. The conversation here in John 5 is talking about something much more permanent. And it is talking about judment as well.

Justme

Sorry, but what's your point again? If it's the AND NOW thing, if Jesus was referring to when He was on earth, it is probably a good guess that He could have been referring to Lazarus John 11:43 since Lazarus heard His voice and [v.44] "he that was dead came forth". The fact that Lazarus surely died again after this is not the focal point of this, it is that, Jesus was showing them [v.40] the glory of God and that he Jesus [v.25] had the power over life and death for those that "believe" in Him. Since Lazarus lived again, he must have come to believe [v.26]. And since the body of Lazarus must have died again, it is the spirit that doesn't die at the death of the body.

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

I may have misunderstood here.

You said:
Since [20:6] makes the point that those of the first resurrection are blessed and holy, the Church, OT saints, Tribulation martyrs, all these will only be resurrected once but at different times since ....

Yes, they will be resurrected at different times which is the point I am making. You talk about being resurrected ONCE, do you think there is some chance of getting two shots at it?

There is mention of a second death, of course, that is the other possibility for all of mankind. We find this out after death as in:

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

This verse states once and for all a basic biblical fact. It can not be slid to the side, it can not be neglected, it is to be understood, it is a basic biblical fact. ...man will(you, me, Billy Bob and everybody who is ever born into this world), will die. Then this verse tells us we will be made aware of our judgment after that death.

This is further explained here in Matt 12:

36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

This tells us that judgment is just that- a judging of the persons earthly life to determine if that person will be raised to a life of comfort(heavenly) or the Hell mode or second death. Meaning you have died once (physically) and if you are not judged favorable you don't make the grade on the spiritual side of things either. Second death. That is available to you, me, Dolly Parton anybody, if we choose not to believe and whatever else He decides on. For those who believe the chances are better. I won't hazard a guess at what the percentage of accuracy there is to this in actual reality. If we die and everything fades to nothing we'll know it wasn't right, I guess.

So now there is this group that is blessed and holy and the second death has no danger to them. Look at the verses and you will see that they are the ones who will reign with Jesus for the 1000 years.
Here are the verses again;

Rev 20

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Here in a verse that is explaining who will reign with Jesus for a thousand years, it does not include Daniel. Daniel can not be in this description.
Because:
1)Daniel never met Jesus and never was beheaded for any reason.

2)Daniel was not involved in the great tribulation where the beast was doing his thing.

3) Daniel was in the rest of the dead.

Daniel was going to recieve a favorable judgement, but Daniel could not have been in what is called the 'firstresurrection'.

He was resurrected at a different time, and Paul tells us that those 'sleeping in the dirt' would be resurrected ahead of him or those he was writing to.

Now, to further contradict the idea that it is only unbelievers that will rise later( to go where by the way) we have Paul who clearly says some people will remain after those who 'sleep in the dirt' have been resurrected, we have Rev 14:13

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

The rest of the chapter describes with the coming of the son of man.

So we have the first resurrection which was those who reigned with Christ for a thousand years, we have the rest of the dead, who slept in the dirt resurrected near/at the great tribulation, we have Pauls group that remained till the coming and they would have died sometime later and they were BLESSED.

You can fit the wedding feast in here any where really. It fits alright.

Now this Armaggedden....what scripture are you getting these biblical facts from.
I would say that Armaggedon is just another way of talking about a battle where those that rejected Jesus were given their comeuppance. I would say that was in the fight we read about in Jerusalem.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

YOU WROTE:
Sorry, but what's your point again? If it's the AND NOW thing, if Jesus was referring to when He was on earth, it is probably a good guess that He could have been referring to Lazarus John 11:43 since Lazarus heard His voice and [v.44] "he that was dead came forth".

Well, I will guess that Jesus meant that those that slept in the dirt were very close to their being raised. I would guess that is what Jesus meant.

You wrote:

The fact that Lazarus surely died again after this is not the focal point of this, it is that, Jesus was showing them [v.40] the glory of God and that he Jesus [v.25] had the power over life and death for those that "believe" in Him.

I would say that Jesus was telling them that those who slept in the ground would hear His verse and be raised, some to heaven and some to Hell.

I would go further and say the AND NOW IS can be taken as SOON.

You wrote:
Since Lazarus lived again, he must have come to believe [v.26]. And since the body of Lazarus must have died again, it is the spirit that doesn't die at the death of the body.

Exactly, the natural/earthly body has passed away and the spiritual/heavenly body comes. Or I guess the hellenly body if things don't go too good at the judgment deal.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,
I missed some of your post:

You wrote:

"The rest of the dead" are (unbelievers) at the second resurrection described in [20:12,13]. Again, are wicked people "blessed and holy"? [v.6]. Will blessed and holy people experience a "second death?" [v.6].
******

The blessed will not experience a second death.
No, the wicked are not 'blessed and holy."

You wrote:

Again the believer's hope (1Thess.4:14; 1Cor.15:20-23). Verse [15.] only points out that the living have no advantage over those that have died believing in Christ at His second coming. This is meant for the Church Age believers, was Daniel living during the Church Age?
**********************

Not quite.

Here are the verses.
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

I'll just pull out a sentence or two here and leave it at that, it is self explanatory.
......the dead in Christ will rise first.

.........17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Now when I quote verse 15 there can only be one meaning.
...... we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Daniel was one who had fallen asleep. Daniel is raised before whoever Paul includes as WE.

The 'church age' is a term applied by man, I don't know the true meaning of the term.

So again....

Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not wicked.

Rev 20 calls those who reign with Christ for the 1000 years the first resurrection. These people were not wicked , the second death was not a danger to them.

In 1 Thess 15 those who fell asleep are resurrected and can include the wicked as well as the righteous.

John 5
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

and Daniel 12

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

There is always that verse in Rev 14 that says those who DIE after the coming of the son of man are blessed.

Justme

 

[4Jesus]

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became

Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection.

The "first fruits" in Israel always anticipated a harvest. (Lev.23:9-14). 1Cor.15:20 shows that as Jesus was resurrected bodily, those that believe in Him will also experience bodily resurrection. Jesus is only the first of the harvest of the harvest of the first resurrection.

 

[4Jesus]

Hi 4jesus,

I may have misunderstood here.

You said:
Since [20:6] makes the point that those of the first resurrection are blessed and holy, the Church, OT saints, Tribulation martyrs, all these will only be resurrected once but at different times since ....

Yes, they will be resurrected at different times which is the point I am making. You talk about being resurrected ONCE, do you think there is some chance of getting two shots at it?

Frankly, I don't remember you trying to make the point that believers are resrrected at different times, that was me. Believers don't need two shots, so, why would I think that?

There is mention of a second death, of course, that is the other possibility for all of mankind. We find this out after death as in:

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

This verse states once and for all a basic biblical fact. It can not be slid to the side, it can not be neglected, it is to be understood, it is a basic biblical fact. ...man will(you, me, Billy Bob and everybody who is ever born into this world), will die. Then this verse tells us we will be made aware of our judgment after that death.

This is further explained here in Matt 12:

36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

This tells us that judgment is just that- a judging of the persons earthly life to determine if that person will be raised to a life of comfort(heavenly) or the Hell mode or second death. Meaning you have died once (physically) and if you are not judged favorable you don't make the grade on the spiritual side of things either. Second death. That is available to you, me, Dolly Parton anybody, if we choose not to believe and whatever else He decides on. For those who believe the chances are better. I won't hazard a guess at what the percentage of accuracy there is to this in actual reality. If we die and everything fades to nothing we'll know it wasn't right, I guess.

To a certain degree, I've missed whatever point you'r trying to make. When you say "For those who believe the chances are better," are you saying the chance at salvation?

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall recieve a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE. 1Cor.3:12-15

The day mentioned in [v.13] is when believers stand before the judgement seat of Christ. The rewards are purely a gift of grace and do not describe our relationship to Jesus Christ but our service. [v.15] shows that believers don't loose their salvation, only rewards.

So now there is this group that is blessed and holy and the second death has no danger to them. Look at the verses and you will see that they are the ones who will reign with Jesus for the 1000 years.
Here are the verses again;

Rev 20

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev.14:3 the four beasts and the elders are the same as in 4:4, that are seated on the throne of 14:3, they are not the same as the souls that have been beheaded (tribulation saints). Just as the Church is the firstfruits that are resurrected before the tribulation, the souls in 20:4 are all the tribulation saints (including the 144,000) and they are the first fruits of the first reusrrection 14:4b of the tribulation. The elders could very well be the OT saints or the Apostles. Since there will be believers during the tribulation period, they will be among those that will be part of the first reusrrection before the wicked. Like I said the first resurrection comes in stages before the wicked are resurrected.

Here in a verse that is explaining who will reign with Jesus for a thousand years, it does not include Daniel. Daniel can not be in this description.
Because:
1)Daniel never met Jesus and never was beheaded for any reason.

2)Daniel was not involved in the great tribulation where the beast was doing his thing.

3) Daniel was in the rest of the dead.

Daniel was going to recieve a favorable judgement, but Daniel could not have been in what is called the 'firstresurrection'.

He was resurrected at a different time, and Paul tells us that those 'sleeping in the dirt' would be resurrected ahead of him or those he was writing to.

When Paul is speaking about the resurrection or those that sleep in the dirt, he is speaking to the Church not to the OT saints (i.e. Daniel).

Now, to further contradict the idea that it is only unbelievers that will rise later( to go where by the way) we have Paul who clearly says some people will remain after those who 'sleep in the dirt' have been resurrected, we have Rev 14:13

Again Paul is speaking of the Church not Rev.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

These are the tribulation saints.

The rest of the chapter describes with the coming of the son of man.

So we have the first resurrection which was those who reigned with Christ for a thousand years, we have the rest of the dead, who slept in the dirt resurrected near/at the great tribulation, we have Pauls group that remained till the coming and they would have died sometime later and they were BLESSED.

You can fit the wedding feast in here any where really. It fits alright.

Now this Armaggedden....what scripture are you getting these biblical facts from.
I would say that Armaggedon is just another way of talking about a battle where those that rejected Jesus were given their comeuppance. I would say that was in the fight we read about in Jerusalem.

Justme

The rest of what chapter describes the coming of the son of man? You've jumped around so much I can't keep it straight.

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

From your post:

Rev.14:3 the four beasts and the elders are the same as in 4:4, that are seated on the throne of 14:3, they are not the same as the souls that have been beheaded (tribulation saints).
*********************

Okay, let's go with that. So we are calling those tribulation saints. Those that were beheaded and the 144000.

From Rev 20
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We know that the ones we are calling tribulation saints reign with christ for 1000 years.
We also know that this is the FIRST resurrection.
The first, only Jesus had arisen from the dead prior to them.

We also know that
Rev 6
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

After the 1000 years which the tribulation saints reign with christ the rest of the dead were raised.

There can be no resurrection BEFORE the FIRST resurrection because all we have is the tribulation saints and the REST of the dead which is raised AFTER the 1000 years.

It is further complicated by 1 Thess 4:15

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Now the coming of the Lord is AFTER the tribulation. Those who are alive at that event, will not be raised before those who sleep in the dirt.

You wrote:

When Paul is speaking about the resurrection or those that sleep in the dirt, he is speaking to the Church not to the OT saints (i.e. Daniel).********

Actually this can't be. Paul said they would NOT precede those who slept in the dirt. Daniel did, so did countless others. And they would be resurrected before those who were alive at the coming of the Lord.

Further to that is still Rev 14

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

These are the people of the biblical church.

You wrote:
Like I said the first resurrection comes in stages before the wicked are resurrected.
*************
I don't recall what the bible says about coming in stages, but there were no wicked in the first resurrection because they reigned on earth for 1000 years and besides the wicked are affected by the second death.

Justme

 

[4Jesus]

Reply to post #88

You wrote:

Again the believer's hope (1Thess.4:14; 1Cor.15:20-23). Verse [15.] only points out that the living have no advantage over those that have died believing in Christ at His second coming. This is meant for the Church Age believers, was Daniel living during the Church Age?
**********************

Not quite.

Here are the verses.
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

I'll just pull out a sentence or two here and leave it at that, it is self explanatory.
......the dead in Christ will rise first.

.........17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Now when I quote verse 15 there can only be one meaning.
...... we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Where do the spirits of the dead go? That or those are the ones that come back with the Lord. All that goes into the ground is the body, and all that can come our of the grave is the body.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28,29

And again you try an apply Scripture that belongs to the Church to some other age.

Daniel was one who had fallen asleep. Daniel is raised before whoever Paul includes as WE.

The 'church age' is a term applied by man, I don't know the true meaning of the term.

Believe what you wish but Paul was speaking to the Church.

So again....

Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not wicked.

I have no earthly idea what point you are trying to make with this statement

Rev 20 calls those who reign with Christ for the 1000 years the first resurrection. These people were not wicked , the second death was not a danger to them.

Your still under the assumption that those in [v.4] that reign with Christ for 1,000yrs are only those that are beheaded. So who are the ones that sat on thrones in [v.4]?

In 1 Thess 15 those who fell asleep are resurrected and can include the wicked as well as the righteous.

No they can't since this is the Church that Paul is referring to.

John 5
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

and Daniel 12

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

There is always that verse in Rev 14 that says those who DIE after the coming of the son of man are blessed.

Justme

Those that die in the Lord from henceforth Rev.14:12,13 are the Tribulation martyrs and they will be resurrected and reign with Christ in the Millennium.

 

[4Jesus]

The only time the wicked of all ages will be judged is at the last great judgement "The Great White Throne," Rev.20:11-15.

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

You wrote:

Where do the spirits of the dead go? That or those are the ones that come back with the Lord. All that goes into the ground is the body, and all that can come our of the grave is the body.

NOTE: Let's only deal with the righteous here, it may be less confusing.

The spirits go to Heaven, the spiritual body remains in Heaven forever where Jesus is.
1 Thess 4
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Yes, all that goes in the grave is the natural /earthly body and it returns to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I have never seen a verse that says the physical/natural body ever comes out of the grave. This is only talked about by certain religious groups, not the bible.
If, there are verses you think say that man's physical body climbs up out of the grave by all means show me. It is NOT John 28,29 because that is talking about Christ's time plus it is a different resurrection 'time' that would fit that argument.

You wrote:
Your still under the assumption that those in [v.4] that reign with Christ for 1,000yrs are only those that are beheaded. So who are the ones that sat on thrones in [v.4]?

Personallly, I think they are the 144000 because they were seen on Mount of Olives before any judgement was even spoken about, but I don't know of any other verses at the moment to verify that.
Besides it doesn't matter.

You are missing the points of biblical reference to these resurrections.

Rev 20

6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

It really doesn't matter who this is because they are resurrected before the rest of the dead.

5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Do you understand this part? Biblically speaking, there can be no one resurrected(other than Jesus) prior to the 1000 year reign.
I know some religious groups teach that everybody (in their religious group anyway) will reign with Jesus for a thousand years, but biblicall speaking that is impossible.

Remember the bible says ... 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

I kept bringing Daniel in to this picture because we know from scripture that Daniel slept in the dust and we know that he was to rise sometime around the great tribulation.

Paul makes reference to those who sleep in 1 Thess 4

........the dead in Christ will rise first.
Let's leave the identity here open for a moment and look at the next verse.
17AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

After the dead in Christ are raised it will be Paul and those who he is writing to, which NOW includes us.

I don't know who all you want the church to refer to.

You wrote:

Those that die in the Lord from henceforth Rev.14:12,13 are the Tribulation martyrs and they will be resurrected and reign with Christ in the Millennium.
***************

How can that possibly be? The REST of the dead came after the 1000 year reign!!
Rev 20:5

Show me any verse you think will indicate a resurrection prior to the 'first resurrection'. (except Christ)

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

The only time the wicked of all ages will be judged is at the last great judgement "The Great White Throne," Rev.20:11-15.

This judgment can not refer to those who reigned for 1000 years. In this judgment there is a good and a not so good being judged. Those who reigned for a 1000 years were not to be affected by the second death.

So what is talked about here is the rest of the dead. We know that there was Daniel (again) and those who died prior to the great tribulation who will be resurrected. Those can be raised to glory or raised to shame because it says so in Daniel 12. And once again Paul and those he was writing to were to be raised AFTER them. Unless everybody from Paul's writing on are righteous there would be wicked there as well.

I know there are religious groups who put forth the argument that all these resurrections take place at the same time some time in the future, but whenever it is it must follow the sequence laid out in the bible.

Certain religious groups want to fit in a rapture in all this..Pre,post,mid.. I have never seen any biblical verses that would indicate there is a rapture of any kind unless you want to call the trip to Heaven at death a 'rapture', I would call it 'being raised.'

Can you show me anything that will back up your statement that the 'church' is what Paul is talking about as sleeping. ANd where is Daniel as far as you are concerned.
Justme

 

[parousia70]

The "first fruits" in Israel always anticipated a harvest. (Lev.23:9-14). 1Cor.15:20 shows that as Jesus was resurrected bodily, those that believe in Him will also experience bodily resurrection. Jesus is only the first of the harvest of the harvest of the first resurrection.

So you agree that Jesus was the "First Resurrection".
Good.

In Israel,(Lev 23:9-14) were the "first fruits" of the harvest ever taken 2000 years before the actual harvest?, or did the harvest always follow "SOON" after?

Clearly Believers are to experience a "Bodily" resurrection. No one is disputing that fact.

It's the "nature" of that resurrection body that is in question here.
You.

How much like Jesus' Body that rose from the grave do you believe ours will be like?

Will we retain any wounds we may have received in death "like" Jesus did?,

or will we receive 'healed' bodies, in superior physical condition to Jesus'?

 

[4Jesus]

Reply to post #91

Hi 4jesus,

From your post:

Rev.14:3 the four beasts and the elders are the same as in 4:4, that are seated on the throne of 14:3, they are not the same as the souls that have been beheaded (tribulation saints).
*********************

Okay, let's go with that. So we are calling those tribulation saints. Those that were beheaded and the 144000.

From Rev 20
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We know that the ones we are calling tribulation saints reign with christ for 1000 years.
We also know that this is the FIRST resurrection.
The first, only Jesus had arisen from the dead prior to them.

No, the Church has risen before them.

We also know that
Rev 6
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

After the 1000 years which the tribulation saints reign with christ the rest of the dead were raised.

There can be no resurrection BEFORE the FIRST resurrection because all we have is the tribulation saints and the REST of the dead which is raised AFTER the 1000 years.

There are those besides the tribulation martyrs that will reign on the earth during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ:

for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood our of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev.5:9b, 10.

This is spoken by the elders which are seperate from the souls of the trib. martyrs in (20:4).

It is further complicated by 1 Thess 4:15

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Now the coming of the Lord is AFTER the tribulation. Those who are alive at that event, will not be raised before those who sleep in the dirt.

You wrote:

When Paul is speaking about the resurrection or those that sleep in the dirt, he is speaking to the Church not to the OT saints (i.e. Daniel).********

Actually this can't be. Paul said they would NOT precede those who slept in the dirt. Daniel did, so did countless others. And they would be resurrected before those who were alive at the coming of the Lord.

You're the one who's making it complicated. Like I said the first resurrection does not happen all at once but in different stages. The Church will be the first to be resurrected since they as Paul points out:

are fallen asleep in Christ. 1Cor.15:18 will be the first to be raised from the dead.

Further to that is still Rev 14

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

These are the people of the biblical church.

You wrote:
Like I said the first resurrection comes in stages before the wicked are resurrected.
*************
I don't recall what the bible says about coming in stages, but there were no wicked in the first resurrection because they reigned on earth for 1000 years and besides the wicked are affected by the second death.

Justme

The wicked will reign during the millenium? Since our Lord Jesus Christ will be reigning during the 1,000 year millenial reign, do you realize how absurd and out right heretical you sound when you say that Jesus Christ will share His reign with wicked people?! , how tragic that you believe this.

 

[4Jesus]

Hi 4jesus,

You wrote:

Where do the spirits of the dead go? That or those are the ones that come back with the Lord. All that goes into the ground is the body, and all that can come our of the grave is the body.

NOTE: Let's only deal with the righteous here, it may be less confusing.


Justme

No Justme, I'm through dealing with you. Anyone that has such a poor personal relationship with Jesus Christ that they could say as you did at the bottom of post #91, that, the wicked will reign with Jesus in the millenial kingdom, is either in dire need of a good Bible study or has not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Have you done that Justme? Have you asked Jesus into your life? Do you believe He was born of a Virgin, crucified, died, and buried and rose on the third day? Do you believe that He shed His blood for mankind to break the curse of sin and death? If you really believed this, I don't see how you could possibly make the statement that Jesus will share His reign with wicked people. It is sad that you could ever make such a statement about the Lord.

 

[4Jesus]

So you agree that Jesus was the "First Resurrection".
Good.

In Israel,(Lev 23:9-14) were the "first fruits" of the harvest ever taken 2000 years before the actual harvest?, or did the harvest always follow "SOON" after?

How long did it take for Gen.3:15 to be fulfilled?

Clearly Believers are to experience a "Bodily" resurrection. No one is disputing that fact.

It's the "nature" of that resurrection body that is in question here.
You.

How much like Jesus' Body that rose from the grave do you believe ours will be like?

Will we retain any wounds we may have received in death "like" Jesus did?,

or will we receive 'healed' bodies, in superior physical condition to Jesus'?

I've already answered this in one of the threads that got deleted because of the crash and you know it. What do you think?

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

Any one who is considering believing in the Christian faith would be quite stupid to think that the main character is 'wicked'. BUT I don't and I never said that.

That is the conclusion you come to because of your mis-understanding of who reigns for the 1000 years, but I never said Jesus reigns with the wicked.

You wrote:
It is sad that you could ever make such a statement about the Lord.
****************
How sad is it when you mislead the readers on what I said? And why did you do that?

Justme