Preterism

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OldShepherd

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parousia70 said:
No, the text "alive and remain" simply referrs to those alive at the time of the 2nd coming, and not at the time of their own "catching up", which the text clearly states takes place not "at" the second coming, but sometime "after" the 2nd coming has already ocourred.

Scripture tells us elsewhere that only "after" a man has first died is he then judged. (Hebrews 9:27)

You have to be dead to be resurrected in "the resurrection of the dead"

But as you have noted the text clearly says "we who are alive AND REMAIN", it does NOT say we who are alive and die later. Also see 2 Cor 15:51-52, "We shall not all sleep. . .", and from the context it is clear Paul is not talking about taking an afternoon nap.

  • 1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
here are the verses referenced before.

  • 1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If shortly means shortly as someone's signature states, doesn't "alive and remain" mean exactly that?
 
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Justme

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Hi OS,

I realize this is to Parousia70, but I have queries for you.

What do you consider 'sleep' to mean in the verses we have been talking about here?

When did/does this 'sleeping in the dust' end? With the coming of the son of man? At the cross? Tuesday at 8? When?

Justme
 
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OldShepherd

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Justme said:
Hi OS,

I realize this is to Parousia70, but I have queries for you.

What do you consider 'sleep' to mean in the verses we have been talking about here?

When did/does this 'sleeping in the dust' end? With the coming of the son of man? At the cross? Tuesday at 8? When?

Justme

  • 1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Sleep is used in two senses in scripture. Most of the time it refers to what we normally call sleep, napping, dozing, cutting zzzs, etc. And sometimes it is used to refer to death. Context tells us which it is. Last means last. We are still around so the last hasn't happened from our POV.
 
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Justme

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Hi OS,

Sleep is used in two senses in scripture. Most of the time it refers to what we normally call sleep, napping, dozing, cutting zzzs, etc. And sometimes it is used to refer to death. Context tells us which it is. Last means last. We are still around so the last hasn't happened from our POV.

Yes, I agree that sleep means death in certain passages.

I also agree that,we( you and I) are still around and, biblically speaking we will be raised sometime in the future because last hasn't happened from OPV.

Am I correct in assuming that in your opinion then that Mother Teresa still 'sleeps'?

Justme
 
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parousia70

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Sleep is used in two senses in scripture. Most of the time it refers to what we normally call sleep, napping, dozing, cutting zzzs, etc. And sometimes it is used to refer to death. Context tells us which it is.

1 Thessalonians 5:6

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Which of those 2 senses is "sleep" being used here?
Death or Napping?

Perhaps there is a 3rd sense you didn't mention?
 
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Justme said:
Hi 4jesus,



Good point, but isn't it the king of the south. Anyway you are right, every verse has to agree or we don't have the right answer. I guess there are verses that will forever remain unexplainable so maybe we should say almost every verse should agree.

At any rate what is talked about in 11 are various fueds going on in various places. I don't know the order and origin of kings of that time, but I have seen a webpage somewhere and I'll look it up. Are you able to give me your assumptions of who and where these battles will be fought in the future.

Justme

11:40 says that at the time of the end the "king of the south" will come at the "king of the north" and the "king of the north" shall enter countries and overflow and as I said build a palace in Jerusalem. It also states in (v.41) from the reference to the glorius land (Israel), that "the king of the north" will fight against them but he is defeated after he builds his palace in Jerusalem in (v.45). How long after Rome destroyed Jerusalem was it defeated? I personally don't have any idea who this is and since I believe it is still future, a lot can change with time. I have not gotten into the part of end-time prophecy that deals with armies and such.

To answer your other question about time, times and a half time, a time is a year, times is two years, and 1/2 time is 6mo., Rev.12:14 mentions the same time. So if people believe this passage is about the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70, this only accounts for 3 1/2 yrs. and the theory that Jerusalem was besieged from 63 to 70 A.D (a total of 7yrs.) doesn't seem to fit chp.12 of Daniel. If you read Daniel 7:25 this same time period is mentioned in conjunction with someone that speaks great words against the most High, could this be our Lord Jesus Christ if any of this applies to him coming in A.D.70 and destroying Jerusalem? Would Jesus speak against the most High? It is the fourth beast (7:19) that speaks these things against the most High. Since 10:5 speaks of an angel (most assuredly it is an angel since Michael had to help him against the king of Persia), (12:7) is probably an angel, (Rev.15:6) also speaks of angels clothed in linen.
 
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Justme

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Hi 4jesus,

I found scads of information on wars and battles and kings and emporers, but to sort it all out would take ages. So who Daniel is seeing in that vision, I don't know.

I don't see the 'times' thing reffering to the destruction. Isee that being in Daniel 12 here:

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

That is roughly 3 1/2 years. However, in the Olivet Discourse it is said that the days were shortened so was that decided before or after Daniel made the statement.
In Daniel the end of sacrifice was mentioned as well as the abomination that causes desolation.

Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation***************

Justme
***************
 
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The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29). Paul said that: Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection. The good and evil will not be resurrected at the same time. John saw: These are the saints of the first resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Rev.4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God. Then John saw: These are the tribulation saints in their martyred condition (as souls), then he saw them rise from the dead (they lived again, and they, with the first resurrection saints, reigned with Christ a thousand years.


1Thess.4 is what I just described above and I don't see where you come up with a "general resurrection." Since God made a land grant with Israel and Jesus came to establish His Kingdom through the land grant which is an unconditional covenant with the nation of Israel and it will last forever (Gen.13:15; 2Sam.7:13,16; Jer.31:34), the Lord Jesus Christs Kingdom will be established on earth and has not happened yet.


I refer you to what I said above.
When they therefore were come together, they asked him saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power. Acts 1:6,7The Greek word translated "times" is (chronos), and seasons in Greek is "Epochs" (kairos). Chronos regards time as a succession of events, one following the other in chronological order. In contrast, kairos denotes an era, a system or order of chronology, a period of time characterized by a distinctive development. This noun is frequedntly used for organization of historical events in their dispenstional category. Jesus never told the disciples that the earthly kingdom would not be established but he told them that things must follow a certain order before this happens.

Justme, if you will notice in my reply to you in post 29, I made some very valid points that you ignored.

In Daniel 9:24 is the Daniel's vision of the "Seventy Weeks" describes God's dealings with Israel. The 70 prophetic weeks of Daniel's vision are divided into two periods, the first 69 weeks, and the final (seventieth week). It is believed that when Israel rejected Jesus this time of dealing with Israel stopped and Israel was set aside during the church and the last week is yet to be fulfilled. According to Daniel's prophecy, at the end of the sixty-ninth week, the Messiah will be cut off and the city of Jerusalem including the temple destroyed. The 70 weeks began from the only biblical decree authorizing the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its wall (Neh.2), this correlates with each day equaling a year as is the standard in Num.14:34 and Ezek.4:6. Sir Robert Anderson of Scotland Yard spent many years of his life verifying and validating the details of this prophecy. He wrote a comprehensive book of his study called, "The Coming Prince," and he calculated the end of the sixty-ninth week to fall on Palm Sunday, just before the Lord's crucifixion. Daniel's prophecy shows that whoever the Messiah was He had to appear before the city and the Temple were destroyed in A.D.70.

To be continued
 
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OldShepherd

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parousia70 said:
1 Thessalonians 5:6

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Which of those 2 senses is "sleep" being used here?
Death or Napping?

Perhaps there is a 3rd sense you didn't mention?

You may be correct. But I do not understand the point you are trying to make. Context is still the key to our understanding. Sleep does not always mean dozing, napping, etc. and it does not always mean death.

Note, I use bold to more easily read my own posts. I am not shouting. I occasionally use all CAPS to empahsize certain words.
 
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Justme

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Hi 4jesus,

I'll deal with some points here and then let's get organized.

One of your arguments is as follows:
Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection.
***********************
The premise you lead with is incorrect, the spirit can die.

Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
***************

What we are getting to in our main conversation will shed light on whether it is possible for there to be a physical resurrection. By physical resurrection I mean a come up out of the grave and walk around earth again kind of physical resurrection.

YOU WROTE:The good and evil will not be resurrected at the same time.
******************
Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Many will awake. Are all who awake the good guys? Apparently not because some are heading for everlasting contempt. There is a judging going on...if you want to consider that only the good are in the line-up to be resurrected, fine, just show me where the bad guys were culled out earlier.

You wrote: These are the saints of the first resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Rev.4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God.
*****************

John was in Heaven whn he saw all this stuff and there are only righteous up there.

Who is involved in the first resurrection. These people:
Rev 20

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those that reigned for a 1000 years were:

........those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. ......



You wrote:These are the tribulation saints in their martyred condition
**********************

Yes, they are these folks plus a few others:

Rev 7

15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Think about this for a moment... this great tribulation that everyone wants to miss and many talk of it as that great day of wrath where God will annialate those nasty ____________group who don't believe as I/we/whoever do and there they are in Heaven.

You wrote:

1Thess.4 is what I just described above and I don't see where you come up with a "general resurrection."
**********************

That is a term often applied to this resurrection. By that I mean the resurrection that was mentioned in Daniel 12 and 1 Thess 4 does talk about that. That is the group that the 'WE' paul speaks of shall not precede. There are no bad guys in the refernce Paul makes because he is talking about the righteous only. The bad guys are going a different route.

You wrote:

they lived again, and they, with the first resurrection saints, reigned with Christ a thousand years.
***********************
Were they not 'LIVING' when John saw them? Were they not 'LIVING' a spiritual existance in Heaven when John saw them. In fact were they not thoseof the first resurrection. See bit below on Rev 20.

You wrote:
Since God made a land grant with Israel and Jesus came to establish His Kingdom through the land grant which is an unconditional covenant with the nation of Israel and it will last forever
************************

Would that be this covenant?
Hebrews 8

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[2] :
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
******************
That arrangemnet was thrown out because:
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

This is our new arrangement and it has precious little to do with Israel:

12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[3]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

And disappear it did.

You went to a great deal of work on the 70 weeks of Daniel. I don't know how many different 'interpretations' of what Daniel meant is out there, but I say there is enough totally different ones to conclude that nobody really knows what Daniel meant.

There are many other easily understood verses that can lead to an understanding instead of spending yet another 70 weeks arguing over what Daniel saw in a vision.

Now I answered at least some of your questions so let's go back to your answer for this:

Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation***************

Justme
 
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parousia70

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4Jesus said:
Paul said that: Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection.

Where exactly did Paul say he was speaking of a PHYSICAL resurrection?
I can't find "physical resurrection" anywhere in the Bible.

Sir Robert Anderson of Scotland Yard spent many years of his life verifying and validating the details of this prophecy. He wrote a comprehensive book of his study called, "The Coming Prince," and he calculated the end of the sixty-ninth week to fall on Palm Sunday, just before the Lord's crucifixion.


The 69th week ended with the annointing (baptism) of Messiah, 3.5 years before His "cutting off", 7 years before the Gopsel was freed to go to the gentiles at the end of the 70th week.

Daniel's prophecy shows that whoever the Messiah was He had to appear before the city and the Temple were destroyed in A.D.70.

And Jesus said of that destruction:
"These be the days of vengeance that all things written may be fulfilled"
 
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Continuation of post #48

Yes we do need to get organized and lay some gound work which I did in the post that got lost because of the crash. We need to first realize what was prophesied about the Messiah. Two completely different portraits were described of a coming Messiah by the Old Testament prophets, for those that lived prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, it was difficult for them to understand. They saw the two differences but supposed two different people, they missed the connection.

One portrait depicts Him as a humble servant, who would suffer for others and be rejected by His countrymen. This is in Isaiah 53. The other shows a conquering king with unlimited power, who suddenly comes to earth at the height of a global war and saves men from self-destruction. He places the Israelites who believe in Him as the spiritual and secular leaders of the world and brings in an age free of prejudice and injustice, this can be found in Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9:6,7. The second was the most popular with the people since during Jesus's first advent the perspective of the people including the disciples was distorted by anti-Roman sentiment. They resented Roman authority and accepted the popular opinion that the Jews should have political autonomy. They wanted the kingdom now!

But political kingdom of God as described in Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9:6,7 demanded a spiritual response first which most of the Jews refused to give (Matt.23:37). Even though the disciples had believed in Christ as Saviour, their preconceived ideas about the kingdom of God had kept them from comprehending Christ's teaching. They also had missed the significance of His rejection by Israel and, therefore, had failed to notice a major shift in His message.

Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the Son of David, the King of the Jews, the fulfillment of all God's unconditional covenants with Israel. When Israel refused to accept her rightful King, the promised earthly kingdom of God was postponed until the Millennium, which God will establish at His own perfect time (Acts 1:6,7), regardless of human acceptance or rejection (1Thess.5:1-2). The disciples were still thinking in terms of an immediate Jewish kingdom on earth after Jesus had already shifted His focus temporarily away from the Jews, who had rejected Him, to a new body of believers, the Church.

If Jesus fulfilled the Prophet Isaiah's prophecy about a "Suffering Servant," Zechariah's prophecy of a "Conquering King" will also be fulfilled. That is why we have a gap in time and the last week (Seventieth Week) of Daniel has not been fulfilled yet.

The prophet Daniel, while in captivity in Babylon, was given a precise timetable and sequence relating to the future events of the people of Israel. Daniel was told that there would be a certain number of years which would transpire between the time a proclamation was given which allowed the Jewish people to return from their Babylonian captivity back to Israel and the coming of the Messiah. This proclamation can be established according to Scriptural history in Nehemiah 2:1-10; Daniel 9:25,26. Also, archeologists have uncovered evidence of this same proclamation in the ancient Persian archives. From the time permission was given to return and rebuild the city of Jerusalem and the Temple until the Messiah would come as the Prince, the heir apparent to the throne of David, would be 483 years (69 weeks of years-483 years). When Jesus died anything having to do with Isareal and the kingdom was set aside temporarily, thus there is still a week in the prediction of Daniel that has not been fulfilled.

Not only was Daniel given specific years, but also a sequence of major historical events which cannot be denied. First of all, there was the proclamation given to the Jews to return from captivity and rebuild the Temple. After that, the Messiah would come as the Prince. Then the Messiah would be "cut-off," which is an idiom for being killed. After the Messiah was killed an army would sweep in and destroy the city and Temple which was rebuilt previously by the returned Babylonian exiles (Daniel 9). As I said before, Daniel's prophecy shows that whoever the Messiah was He had to appear before the city and the Temple were destroyed in A.D.70 by Titus of Rome.

To be continued.

 
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Justme

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Hi 4 jesus,

You wrote:We need to first realize what was prophesied about the Messiah.
****************

If you feel this is important, by all means lay it out. If you don't mind tho, do a summary at times to make sure we follow what your points are concerning the topic of the resurrections.

I'll make note here of one of your interpretations:
When Israel refused to accept her rightful King, the promised earthly kingdom of God was postponed until the Millennium, which God will establish at His own perfect time (Acts 1:6,7), regardless of human acceptance or rejection (1Thess.5:1-2).
*****************

If this interpretation is incorrect there will be verses that will not reconcile with that interpretation as we go thru this.

I will also make note of this:

If Jesus fulfilled the Prophet Isaiah's prophecy about a "Suffering Servant," Zechariah's prophecy of a "Conquering King" will also be fulfilled. That is why we have a gap in time and the last week (Seventieth Week) of Daniel has not been fulfilled yet.

I will let the scripture sort this out for us, but first continue as you wish concerning your interpretation of Daniel's prophecy.

Justme
 
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Justme

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Hi Parousia70,

parousia70 said:
Instead of interrupting, I'll take notes of 4J's interpratation too, and address my points of disagreement when 4J is finished (after Justme of course)

Ah, hang in there, we need all the help we can get.

I4jesus has some points she wants to make, so I thought, let's get this worked thru and then get down to resurrection stuff.

Justme
 
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4Jesus said:
11:40 says that after he builds his palace in Jerusalem in (v.45).

n.



He's not building a palace here, but merely planting tents. It's like say he plants the flags of his country.
11:45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
 
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Justme said:
Hi 4 jesus,

You wrote:We need to first realize what was prophesied about the Messiah.
****************

If you feel this is important, by all means lay it out. If you don't mind tho, do a summary at times to make sure we follow what your points are concerning the topic of the resurrections.

Justme

CONTINUTATION OF POST #48

I don't appreciate your attitude, it was you who first brought up Daniel to OS in post #27, I replied in #29 about Paul speaking of a physical resurrection in 1Cor.15:22 and made other points about Rev. which you did not address. Then in #30 you dropped the resurrection and got on Daniel. Don't blame me if you can't keep the posts straight! Now, in

Daniel 9:27 you will notice that someone confirms a covenant for "one week." In [v.26] the Messiah has been cut off after "69 weeks" of Daniel's vision leaving a week indicating a gap or seperation from the last week. [v.27] is not Jesus since He has never been involved in an earthy 7 year covenant or deal that happens in the future. This is the false messiah, an impostor, who will confirm this future 7 year covenant of compromise.
I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43


The covenants of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the promised "Seed of Abraham" (Gal.3:29) is an "everlasting covenant"...Gen.17:7,19; Isa.55:3; Ezek.37:26; Heb.13:20. If you will notice in the "midst" (half way through, after 3 1/2 yrs) of this week (Daniel.9:27) he (false Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, it would stand to reason that there will be a Temple for the sacrifices. Daniel is given this vision in the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus's reign.

Since nothing is said about any trouble, it would seem that it is a peaceful time until the end of this 3 1/2 years, however, after the false prince (Antichrist) breaks the covenant at the end of the first 3 1/2 years, there will be a tremendous time of perseuction and wars (11:40-45). Then in the third year, Daniel is given the rest of the vision and it takes up chapters 10-12. A time, times, and 1/2 times 12:7, another 3 1/2 years.

[12:11,12] I could give you a lot of assumtions of different people but there is no clear cut reason for these times, they are only mentioned in relation to the last 3 1/2 years and as you said once, there may be passages that we will not understand. Even as you say you believe the 3 1/2 years is because the siege on Jerusalem was shortened, the siege on Jerualsem only lasted 21 days. If we take into account the prophecies of Zechariah and Isaiah, our Lord came in the flesh as the Suffering Servnat and He will come in the flesh as a Conquering King.
 
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parousia70

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OldShepherd said:
You may be correct. But I do not understand the point you are trying to make. Context is still the key to our understanding. Sleep does not always mean dozing, napping, etc. and it does not always mean death.

I agree, and just wanted to confirm that you agreed that it isn't just an "either snoozing or death" option for the term "sleep" in scripture.
 
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parousia70

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4Jesus said:
CONTINUTATION OF POST #48
In [v.26] the Messiah has been cut off after "69 weeks" of Daniel's vision leaving a week indicating a gap or seperation from the last week.

Sorry, I just had to jump in.

4Jesus, the fact that scripture states that messiah was "cut off" AFTER 69 weeks indicates to me He was cut off in the 70th week because that is the week that comes "after" the 69th.
Since we know the 69th week ended with the Baptism of Jesus, we can also know that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week. 3.5 years after his baptism, causing the effectivity of the blood animal sacrifice to "cease".
 
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Justme

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Hi Parousia70,

Please do jump in and deal with this Daniel thing, I don't have a great deal of interest in OT prophecy and I'll be busy today anyway.
I will respond to the first paragraph in that last post because there seems to be a serious misunderstanding.

Thank

Justme
 
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