Repent, or else!

[A Devil's Advocate]

Repent, or else! That's not what people normally say, but it's often the sense I get from hearing 'you must repent.'

Before I start this thread, a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused.

Whenever the subject of repentance comes up, there seems to be a variety of ideas as to what this actually means. I know in my personal life a colleague of mine holds strongly to the idea that to repent is to first recognize your sin (and it's never sin as a whole but usually a specific sin at that moment), then to confess the sin to God before asking to be forgiven that sin. I've heard it described as a change of mind, a change of heart, or a change of action. Some say it's to go from unbelief to belief and others say it's to never sin again. Well, to add to all the confusion I'm going to throw in my two cents.

The subject of repentance has been something I've had to think a lot on lately. As I said, a colleague of mine holds the act of repentance to a very high degree, so it's been on my mind a lot. As well as wanting to have a better grasp of it. Recently, I decided that instead of going to the bible and looking at all the versus that tell us to repent, because we all seem to interpret these differently, I would look at all the versus I could find where God repents. Because, who better than God to set the example, right? In doing so three things started to stand out to me in regards to repenting.

The first thing that became clear was in each instant God either had change of mind or he didn't. He either didn't do what he first said he was going to do or he carried through with what he said he was going to do regardless of the pleas of his prophet.

The second thing that stood out to me was whatever God's decision was, that was it. He never repented a second time over the same situation.

And the third thing that tickled my brain cells was when he repented, it was in place of doing the act, not after doing the act, like my colleague is so fond of preaching.

So, basically it's a change of mind that remains firm, and you do this instead of doing whatever the act is you're repenting of. Sounds simple enough. Except, there's something else that came to mind while trying to wrap my head around this. There are two relationships that are talked about in the bible. Our relationship with God and our relationship with our neighbour. And every time I've ever heard repentance being talked about, it was always in reference to our relationship with God, and nothing about our neighbour. This is important because repentance works differently between the two.

In our relationship with God, sin was dealt with by Jesus. He paid the penalty on our behalf, and in doing so cleansed us all in the sight of God. Meaning, God no longer see's our sin. Because he no longer see's our sin, there remains no sin to repent of but one. That sin is our unbelief, Matt 12:31, John 16:8-9. So, the only thing left to repent of is our unbelief with regards to our relationship with God. Which, in practical terms, is going from an unbeliever to a believer. That's it, that's all. We do this only once. To have to do this more than once means you didn't do it in the first place. And, if you're worried you didn't do it in the first place, rest assured, the fact you're worried about it is a good indication you did. Adding any more to this act of repentance is simply moving backwards. Now, I recognize there are versus that appear to suggest otherwise. But, something I've learned over the years is that if a verse seems to contradict what I know to be an underlying truth, then I realize I'm not understanding the verse in the manner the writer intended it to be.

As for our relationship with our neighbour, repentance is likely going to be a daily event. That said, it isn't in the manner my colleague believes. Instead, it's choosing to do differently than what may initially be a sinful act. For example, a driver on the highway decides not to signal and cuts me off. My initial reaction is probably going to be me showing him, in some unpleasant manner, how that made me feel. In this case, me choosing not to do so is me repenting. And I remain firm in my decision. I don't change my mind a moment later and carry through with my initial reaction. That is not repenting. Now, should the exact same scenario happen again a day later, but with someone different, and I have to repent again of the same thing, that's different. It's a different day and a different situation regardless of how similar they may be. And, I would still need to remain firm in my repentance in this situation as well.

Sometimes the strength to repent just isn't in us. It's here that we want to lean on God for his strength. It never disappoints God for us to do this, instead it pleases God. Should you fail and give in to temptation, it happens. This is the real world and you're only human. But suck it up, be an adult, and get on with your life. It never caught God off guard, just you. How about instead of confessing it to God and asking him for forgiveness ("But it makes me feel better." I'm sorry, but what do your feelings have to do with any of it?), you offer up a sacrifice for your sin. Since it seems Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough for you.

 

[HTacianas]

Repent, or else! That's not what people normally say, but it's often the sense I get from hearing 'you must repent.'

Before I start this thread, a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused.

Whenever the subject of repentance comes up, there seems to be a variety of ideas as to what this actually means. I know in my personal life a colleague of mine holds strongly to the idea that to repent is to first recognize your sin (and it's never sin as a whole but usually a specific sin at that moment), then to confess the sin to God before asking to be forgiven that sin. I've heard it described as a change of mind, a change of heart, or a change of action. Some say it's to go from unbelief to belief and others say it's to never sin again. Well, to add to all the confusion I'm going to throw in my two cents.

The subject of repentance has been something I've had to think a lot on lately. As I said, a colleague of mine holds the act of repentance to a very high degree, so it's been on my mind a lot. As well as wanting to have a better grasp of it. Recently, I decided that instead of going to the bible and looking at all the versus that tell us to repent, because we all seem to interpret these differently, I would look at all the versus I could find where God repents. Because, who better than God to set the example, right? In doing so three things started to stand out to me in regards to repenting.

The first thing that became clear was in each instant God either had change of mind or he didn't. He either didn't do what he first said he was going to do or he carried through with what he said he was going to do regardless of the pleas of his prophet.

The second thing that stood out to me was whatever God's decision was, that was it. He never repented a second time over the same situation.

And the third thing that tickled my brain cells was when he repented, it was in place of doing the act, not after doing the act, like my colleague is so fond of preaching.

So, basically it's a change of mind that remains firm, and you do this instead of doing whatever the act is you're repenting of. Sounds simple enough. Except, there's something else that came to mind while trying to wrap my head around this. There are two relationships that are talked about in the bible. Our relationship with God and our relationship with our neighbour. And every time I've ever heard repentance being talked about, it was always in reference to our relationship with God, and nothing about our neighbour. This is important because repentance works differently between the two.

In our relationship with God, sin was dealt with by Jesus. He paid the penalty on our behalf, and in doing so cleansed us all in the sight of God. Meaning, God no longer see's our sin. Because he no longer see's our sin, there remains no sin to repent of but one. That sin is our unbelief, Matt 12:31, John 16:8-9. So, the only thing left to repent of is our unbelief with regards to our relationship with God. Which, in practical terms, is going from an unbeliever to a believer. That's it, that's all. We do this only once. To have to do this more than once means you didn't do it in the first place. And, if you're worried you didn't do it in the first place, rest assured, the fact you're worried about it is a good indication you did. Adding any more to this act of repentance is simply moving backwards. Now, I recognize there are versus that appear to suggest otherwise. But, something I've learned over the years is that if a verse seems to contradict what I know to be an underlying truth, then I realize I'm not understanding the verse in the manner the writer intended it to be.

As for our relationship with our neighbour, repentance is likely going to be a daily event. That said, it isn't in the manner my colleague believes. Instead, it's choosing to do differently than what may initially be a sinful act. For example, a driver on the highway decides not to signal and cuts me off. My initial reaction is probably going to be me showing him, in some unpleasant manner, how that made me feel. In this case, me choosing not to do so is me repenting. And I remain firm in my decision. I don't change my mind a moment later and carry through with my initial reaction. That is not repenting. Now, should the exact same scenario happen again a day later, but with someone different, and I have to repent again of the same thing, that's different. It's a different day and a different situation regardless of how similar they may be. And, I would still need to remain firm in my repentance in this situation as well.

Sometimes the strength to repent just isn't in us. It's here that we want to lean on God for his strength. It never disappoints God for us to do this, instead it pleases God. Should you fail and give in to temptation, it happens. This is the real world and you're only human. But suck it up, be an adult, and get on with your life. It never caught God off guard, just you. How about instead of confessing it to God and asking him for forgiveness ("But it makes me feel better." I'm sorry, but what do your feelings have to do with any of it?), you offer up a sacrifice for your sin. Since it seems Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough for you.

Most of your post is simply type 1 antinomianism. But to address your last concern:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That is why we confess to God and ask for forgiveness.

 

[St_Worm2]

Repent, or else! That's not what people normally say, but it's often the sense I get from hearing 'you must repent.'

Hello A Devil's Advocate, what sense do you get when it's the Lord saying it to His people/to you instead? For instance,

Revelation 2​

1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: ​

2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; ​

3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. ​

4 ‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. ​

5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and ~repent~ and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.” ("Repent, or else!" )​

​

Revelation 3​

14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ​

15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. ​

16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. ​

17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, ​

18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. ​

19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore ~be zealous and repent.~” ​

......a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused.

As I understand it (concerning our salvation/coming to saving faith, that is) we confess our sins to God and ask to be forgiven of them, and we repent of them (turn away from continuing to do them). This was certainly part of my finally becoming a believer many moons ago.

As far as repenting to "maintain" our salvation goes, since we receive eternal life from the moment that we come to saving faith and believe .. e.g. John 5:24, that's not necessary.

As believers, we continue to confess our sins however, and (again) we repent (stop sinning) each and every time that the Holy Spirit convicts us of a new sin, ~NOT~ to maintain or restore our salvation, but, as King David put it, to "restore .. the ~JOY~ of Thy salvation" .. Psalm 51:12 (IOW, to restore the sense of joy and the closeness of our fellowship with God, not salvation itself, since that isn't lost when we sin).

Skipping ahead, for now anyway.................

In our relationship with God, sin was dealt with by Jesus. He paid the penalty on our behalf, and in doing so cleansed us all in the sight of God. Meaning, God no longer see's our sin. Because he no longer see's our sin, there remains no sin to repent of but one. That sin is our unbelief......

Unbelief, like any/all other sins, needs to be atoned for in order to be forgiven. If unbelief is a sin that was ~not~ atoned for at the Cross/by His blood, as you at least seem to be indicating above, then what is the basis for God's forgiveness of it/how can we be forgiven for that particular sin APART from the Cross?

....something I've learned over the years is that if a verse seems to contradict what I know to be an underlying truth, then I realize I'm not understanding the verse in the manner the writer intended it to be.

That's typically true, unless you are mistaken and only 'think' that you understand the true meaning of an underlying/foundational Biblical truth

For instance, does the fact that the Lord Jesus' death/blood atoned for/paid the price for the sins of the whole world (such that they could finally/truly be forgiven by God) also mean that God acted immediately/at the moment of the Lord Jesus' death to forgive and cleanse EVERYONE'S sins on that basis alone, by which I mean APART from both His quickening/regeneration of us, as well from our coming to saving faith in Him?

Skipping on a bit again................

Sometimes the strength to repent just isn't in us.

Hmmm, what are you referring to exactly, and what would a typical, real-life example of that be?

Thanks

Should you fail and give in to temptation, it happens. This is the real world and you're only human. But suck it up, be an adult, and get on with your life. It never caught God off guard, just you. How about instead of confessing it to God and asking him for forgiveness ("But it makes me feel better." I'm sorry, but what do your feelings have to do with any of it?), you offer up a sacrifice for your sin. Since it seems Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough for you.

So, are you saying that the best way to maintain a close relationship with your parents and family, your friends, your spouse, and/or your children (~and with God~) when you have hurt them and/or sinned against them in some way, is to just "suck it up and get on with your life" ... WITHOUT ever saying/admitting that you were wrong, w/o saying that you are sorry for what you did/said to them, w/o saying that you will do your very best to never do/say such a thing to them again, and w/o asking them to forgive you?

Is that really how it works in your life , the maintaining of the close relationships that you have with others, that is (including God), because it has never worked that way in mine

If I have misunderstood and/or misstated your position on anything in this post (and I may have), please be sure to point it out to me and tell me what you meant instead.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - one last thought, God is all about reconciliation, both with Him, and with others (whenever we wrong them, or whenever they do something to hurt us). That's why we have the ongoing command from Him to "rebuke" those who sin against us, and to always choose to forgive them and be reconciled with them, if/when they choose to repent.

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him. ​

4 “And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” ​

 

[eleos1954]

Repent, or else! That's not what people normally say, but it's often the sense I get from hearing 'you must repent.'

Before I start this thread, a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused.

Whenever the subject of repentance comes up, there seems to be a variety of ideas as to what this actually means. I know in my personal life a colleague of mine holds strongly to the idea that to repent is to first recognize your sin (and it's never sin as a whole but usually a specific sin at that moment), then to confess the sin to God before asking to be forgiven that sin. I've heard it described as a change of mind, a change of heart, or a change of action. Some say it's to go from unbelief to belief and others say it's to never sin again. Well, to add to all the confusion I'm going to throw in my two cents.

The subject of repentance has been something I've had to think a lot on lately. As I said, a colleague of mine holds the act of repentance to a very high degree, so it's been on my mind a lot. As well as wanting to have a better grasp of it. Recently, I decided that instead of going to the bible and looking at all the versus that tell us to repent, because we all seem to interpret these differently, I would look at all the versus I could find where God repents. Because, who better than God to set the example, right? In doing so three things started to stand out to me in regards to repenting.

The first thing that became clear was in each instant God either had change of mind or he didn't. He either didn't do what he first said he was going to do or he carried through with what he said he was going to do regardless of the pleas of his prophet.

The second thing that stood out to me was whatever God's decision was, that was it. He never repented a second time over the same situation.

And the third thing that tickled my brain cells was when he repented, it was in place of doing the act, not after doing the act, like my colleague is so fond of preaching.

So, basically it's a change of mind that remains firm, and you do this instead of doing whatever the act is you're repenting of. Sounds simple enough. Except, there's something else that came to mind while trying to wrap my head around this. There are two relationships that are talked about in the bible. Our relationship with God and our relationship with our neighbour. And every time I've ever heard repentance being talked about, it was always in reference to our relationship with God, and nothing about our neighbour. This is important because repentance works differently between the two.

In our relationship with God, sin was dealt with by Jesus. He paid the penalty on our behalf, and in doing so cleansed us all in the sight of God. Meaning, God no longer see's our sin. Because he no longer see's our sin, there remains no sin to repent of but one. That sin is our unbelief, Matt 12:31, John 16:8-9. So, the only thing left to repent of is our unbelief with regards to our relationship with God. Which, in practical terms, is going from an unbeliever to a believer. That's it, that's all. We do this only once. To have to do this more than once means you didn't do it in the first place. And, if you're worried you didn't do it in the first place, rest assured, the fact you're worried about it is a good indication you did. Adding any more to this act of repentance is simply moving backwards. Now, I recognize there are versus that appear to suggest otherwise. But, something I've learned over the years is that if a verse seems to contradict what I know to be an underlying truth, then I realize I'm not understanding the verse in the manner the writer intended it to be.

As for our relationship with our neighbour, repentance is likely going to be a daily event. That said, it isn't in the manner my colleague believes. Instead, it's choosing to do differently than what may initially be a sinful act. For example, a driver on the highway decides not to signal and cuts me off. My initial reaction is probably going to be me showing him, in some unpleasant manner, how that made me feel. In this case, me choosing not to do so is me repenting. And I remain firm in my decision. I don't change my mind a moment later and carry through with my initial reaction. That is not repenting. Now, should the exact same scenario happen again a day later, but with someone different, and I have to repent again of the same thing, that's different. It's a different day and a different situation regardless of how similar they may be. And, I would still need to remain firm in my repentance in this situation as well.

Sometimes the strength to repent just isn't in us. It's here that we want to lean on God for his strength. It never disappoints God for us to do this, instead it pleases God. Should you fail and give in to temptation, it happens. This is the real world and you're only human. But suck it up, be an adult, and get on with your life. It never caught God off guard, just you. How about instead of confessing it to God and asking him for forgiveness ("But it makes me feel better." I'm sorry, but what do your feelings have to do with any of it?), you offer up a sacrifice for your sin. Since it seems Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough for you.

Repentance is the first step to forgiveness.

“Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation” (2 Cor. 7:10, NKJV).

Repentance involves “turning” or changing your mind ... not just being "sorry" about transgressions committed.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

Most of your post is simply type 1 antinomianism. But to address your last concern:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That is why we confess to God and ask for forgiveness.

I'm not accusing you of this, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people will use this verse out of context in order to make it say what they want it to say, or have been led to believe that's what it's saying. Confessing your sin is not the same thing as asking for forgiveness or repenting. Asking for forgiveness is not the same thing as confessing your sin or repenting, and repenting is not the same thing as asking for forgiveness or confessing your sin. All three are uniquely different.
Nowhere in that verse does it say to ask for forgiveness, yet somehow it is received with just simply recognizing you're a sinner. That was the issue John was dealing with. There was a group of people who believed themselves to be without sin. John was simply letting them know if they were to recognize their sin, that is to come into agreement with what they are being accused of, then God can be counted on to have forgiven them their sin and cleansed them of all unrighteousness.

 

[Matt5]

"Before I start this thread, a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused."

IMO, Jesus saved mankind, not any individual person.

If all have sinned, then the fault lies with the Father. He screwed up when he made us. The only real solution is to wipe out everybody and start over. Jesus shut that down by living a perfect life.

Now any sin is on you.

And we see things like this in the Bible:

The Narrow and Wide Gates​

Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

If all were forgiven, we wouldn't be seeing things like the above verses. Here, merely being lazy gets you caught up in the harvests and tossed into hell shortly before Jesus establishes the kingdom of heaven on Earth.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

David, great questions.

Revelation 2 1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 4 ‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and ~repent~ and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.” ("Repent, or else!" )

Revelation 3 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore ~be zealous and repent.~”

Is it not possible the writer, John, was using what was commonly used throughout scripture, that being 'Hyperbole or even Apocalyptic Hyperbole?

As I understand it (concerning our salvation/coming to saving faith, that is) we confess our sins to God and ask to be forgiven of them, and we repent of them (turn away from continuing to do them). This was certainly part of my finally becoming a believer many moons ago.

As believers, we continue to confess our sins however, and (again) we repent (stop sinning) each and every time that the Holy Spirit convicts us of a new sin, ~NOT~ to maintain or restore our salvation, but, as King David put it, to "restore .. the ~JOY~ of Thy salvation" .. Psalm 51:12 (IOW, to restore the sense of joy and the closeness of our fellowship with God, not salvation itself, since that isn't lost when we sin).

I have to ask then, did you turn away from your sins or do you still continue to do them? (I know I certainly still do) If you still sin, then did you actually repent to begin with? As I said in my thread, you repent instead of sinning, not the other way around. You don't sin and then repent of it just to do it again. Makes no sense especially when you have already committed the sin. The damage has been done. The goal is not to do the damage in the first place.

In old testament times, not just anybody could approach God. This person would first need to be cleansed through whatever rituals and sacrifice God required. And this was the high priest, not simply God's chosen people we're talking about, let alone gentiles. Yet, today anyone, including us gentiles, can approach God. What changed? Well, the obvious answer, Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. Now anyone can come to God for salvation. Okay... then when do we receive this salvation? By coming to God and asking for it.
Do you see where I'm going with this? In order to receive salvation, we have to ask God to forgive us our sins, but we can't come to God for the forgiveness of sins without first being cleansed (forgiven) of our sins.
The answer as to why we can today come to God for salvation is because God took care of the problem of sin just over 2000yrs ago. Anyone who has come into the world from the cross forward has come into the world with their sins already forgiven. God cleansed all of mankind. That is the good news of the Gospel. Today anyone can come to God for salvation regardless of what they have done or where they are at in life.

Unbelief, like any/all other sins, needs to be atoned for in order to be forgiven. If unbelief is a sin that was ~not~ atoned for at the Cross/by His blood, as you at least seem to be indicating above, then what is the basis for God's forgiveness of it/how can we be forgiven for that particular sin APART from the Cross?

I really liked this question.
In Matt 12:31, I have always found it interesting how Jesus makes a distinction between sin and blasphemy. Is it intentional or is it just Jesus emphasising on a point?
If we read this verse under the umbrella that forgiveness is only received after we ask for it, then there are only two possible conclusions available. The first is that none of us are saved. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unbelief. We see this in John 16:8-9. Since we all come into the world as unbelievers, we are all by default guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Whether it's intentional or not. Therefore, by default and according to Jesus, none of us have been forgiven of our unbelief.
The second conclusion would be that Jesus lied. When we ask to be forgiven, all our sins and blasphemies, including blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is forgiven.

Of course, neither one is correct. We cannot read this verse under the umbrella that forgiveness is only received 'after' we ask for it. This verse is best read literally. Meaning, Jesus meant exactly what he said. We could easily read this verse as follows.... "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven all men for all time the moment my blood is shed, but your unbelief will not be forgiven. This you must choose to repent of!"
So, I wouldn't necessarily say that our unbelief is a sin APART from the cross, but rather God leaving the choice of salvation in our hands. He isn't overstepping our freewill to choose. He has simply made that choice a possible reality by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with it's legal demands, Col 2:14. As I stated earlier, anyone can now come to God for salvation. Will this kind of teaching only give people a license to sin? Yes, if the only reason they came to God for salvation was out of 'fear' of eternal condemnation. Now, had God also forgiven unbelief at the cross, then this would lead us into universal salvation. I don't believe universal salvation is scriptural because forgiveness of sins and salvation are two distinctively different events.
Forgiveness is twofold in that it first allows us to approach God for salvation, having cleansed us of all unrighteousness. And secondly, it means God can now give us eternal life since what could take life, this being the penalty of sin, was taken care of at the cross. However, this is not salvation. Our salvation is the eternal life we receive through belief in the Jesus who was resurrected. This eternal life, an ongoing relationship with God, is a free choice given to us all. And, it is received by repenting of our unbelief and believing in Jesus. Not repenting of our sins.

For instance, does the fact that the Lord Jesus' death/blood atoned for/paid the price for the sins of the whole world (such that they could finally/truly be forgiven by God) also mean that God acted immediately/at the moment of the Lord Jesus' death to forgive and cleanse EVERYONE'S sins on that basis alone, by which I mean APART from both His quickening/regeneration of us, as well from our coming to saving faith in Him?

I believe I answered this in the above response.

Hmmm, what are you referring to exactly, and what would a typical, real-life example of that be?

Thanks

Lets go back to the example I gave of being cutoff in traffic. Say it's been a long and hard day. Nothing all day has gone right and I'm extremely frustrated. Then comes along this idiot who decides to cut me off. I can assure you from experience, my strength to repent in that moment would be indistinguishable from the millions of dollars that doesn't exist in my bank account.

So, are you saying that the best way to maintain a close relationship with your parents and family, your friends, your spouse, and/or your children (~and with God~) when you have hurt them and/or sinned against them in some way, is to just "suck it up and get on with your life" ... WITHOUT ever saying/admitting that you were wrong, w/o saying that you are sorry for what you did/said to them, w/o saying that you will do your very best to never do/say such a thing to them again, and w/o asking them to forgive you?

Is that really how it works in your life , the maintaining of the close relationships that you have with others, that is (including God), because it has never worked that way in mine

If I have misunderstood and/or misstated your position on anything in this post (and I may have), please be sure to point it out to me and tell me what you meant instead.

That is not what I was saying or meaning, just to clarify. For the same reason I didn't say that God never repented of sin when I was explaining the things that stood out to me in his examples of repentance, was because I felt the reader would understand this as being an act of common sense. Not something in need of explanation. But, in hindsight...
I was simply inferring that it is not God we need to go to confessing and seeking forgiveness.

p.s. - one last thought, God is all about reconciliation, both with Him, and with others (whenever we wrong them, or whenever they do something to hurt us). That's why we have the ongoing command from Him to "rebuke" those who sin against us, and to always choose to forgive them and be reconciled with them, if/when they choose to repent.

Luke 17 3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him. 4 “And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

At first glance, this certainly seems to contradict what I'm saying. Admittedly, I was a little concerened and I had to really think about this one. But, I think I can finally answer this one. The key to my answer is found in the the statement "if he repents." If to repent means not committing the same sin again, remember I stated that to repent is something you do instead of a sinful act, then yes you forgive him. If he comes to you 7 times having repented of 7 different sins, the again yes you forgive him each time. However, should he committ the same sin he supossedly repented of, then it is inferred that you don't forgive him since he never actually repented of it. *Wipes the sweat off my brow*

 

[St_Worm2]

If all have sinned, then the fault lies with the Father.

Hello Matt, that's one possibility, as the universality of our sinfulness means that it has a single source.

Or, as the Bible teaches (and in harmony with the Bible, the entirety of the Christian church has always taught), the proximate cause of our fallen nature lies not with God, but with our progenitors, in whose fallen/tarnished image (rather than in God's perfect image) we are all begotten .. e.g. Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22.

Fortunately, that is not the end of the story (see Ephesians 2:4-5 below).

God bless you!!

--David

Ecclesiastes 7​

29 “Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.” ​

​

Ephesians 2​

1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, ​

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. ​

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were ~by nature~ children of wrath, even as the rest.​

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, ​

5 even when we were ~dead~ in our transgressions, ~made us alive~ together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

"Before I start this thread, a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused."

IMO, Jesus saved mankind, not any individual person.

If all have sinned, then the fault lies with the Father. He screwed up when he made us. The only real solution is to wipe out everybody and start over. Jesus shut that down by living a perfect life.

Now any sin is on you.

And we see things like this in the Bible:

The Narrow and Wide Gates​

Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

If all were forgiven, we wouldn't be seeing things like the above verses. Here, merely being lazy gets you caught up in the harvests and tossed into hell shortly before Jesus establishes the kingdom of heaven on Earth.

Hey Matt.
Do you honestly believe God screwed up when he made you? I don't believe you do. Of course, I'm going off the assumption that you are a believer. You can't believe in God and not believe that you and everyone else has intrinsic value. And you can't have intrinsic value if your simply a screw up by God. Also, why would anyone choose to believe in a God who is capable of screwing up? Not a God I would choose to believe in.

There is no contradiction found in everyone being forgiven and versus like what you pointed out here. The problem is found in the idea that getting forgiven of your sins is what saves you. You are not saved by getting your sins forgiven. Paul, who was well aware that Jesus had recently died for the forgiveness of sins, tells us in 1 Cor 15:17 that if Jesus has not been raised from the dead, we are still unsaved. Getting your sins forgiven and receiving salvation are two distinctively different events. You can be forgiven of your sins and still not be saved, but you can't be saved unless your sins have "already" been forgiven.

 

[HTacianas]

I'm not accusing you of this, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people will use this verse out of context in order to make it say what they want it to say, or have been led to believe that's what it's saying. Confessing your sin is not the same thing as asking for forgiveness or repenting. Asking for forgiveness is not the same thing as confessing your sin or repenting, and repenting is not the same thing as asking for forgiveness or confessing your sin. All three are uniquely different.
Nowhere in that verse does it say to ask for forgiveness, yet somehow it is received with just simply recognizing you're a sinner. That was the issue John was dealing with. There was a group of people who believed themselves to be without sin. John was simply letting them know if they were to recognize their sin, that is to come into agreement with what they are being accused of, then God can be counted on to have forgiven them their sin and cleansed them of all unrighteousness.

I'm certain that if he meant all of that he would have said all of that. But he didn't. He said in plain language, "If we confess our sins...". There is nothing to be read into it and it is not taken out of context.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

I'm certain that if he meant all of that he would have said all of that. But he didn't. He said in plain language, "If we confess our sins...". There is nothing to be read into it and it is not taken out of context.

You're right, he would have said all that.... 1 John 1:8.
Did you come to receive salvation because you believed yourself to be without sin? As a believer, have you suddenly come to see yourself as having no sin? Also, what is this truth that John says is not in you? Is it not the word of God, Jesus? Seems rather obvious to me that John is not referring to someone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior. Why then would John suddenly switch from referring to a nonbeliever to a believer in the very next verse? Especially when he continues again in 1 John 1:10 what he was saying in verse 8. In 1 John 1:5-7 it is clear John is making a distinction between a believer and a nonbeliever with his use of the word 'but,' while in the rest of the versus we do not see this distinction being made.

 

[HTacianas]

You're right, he would have said all that.... 1 John 1:8.
Did you come to receive salvation because you believed yourself to be without sin? As a believer, have you suddenly come to see yourself as having no sin? Also, what is this truth that John says is not in you? Is it not the word of God, Jesus? Seems rather obvious to me that John is not referring to someone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior. Why then would John suddenly switch from referring to a nonbeliever to a believer in the very next verse? Especially when he continues again in 1 John 1:10 what he was saying in verse 8. In 1 John 1:5-7 it is clear John is making a distinction between a believer and a nonbeliever with his use of the word 'but,' while in the rest of the versus we do not see this distinction being made.

1 John illustrates the difference between intentional and unintentional sin. He says if we say we have no sin, meaning unintentional sin, we deceive ourselves. 1 John 3:6 says anyone who abides in him does not sin. So we have John saying that we all sin, but we do not sin. That is best defined by the Roman doctrine of mortal and venial sin. We all sin venially, but we do not sin mortally. The difference being intentional and unintentional. That is contained in both the old and new testaments. In the old testament a person could offer a sacrifice for unintentional sin, but intentional sin in most cases required the death of the sinner.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

1 John illustrates the difference between intentional and unintentional sin. He says if we say we have no sin, meaning unintentional sin, we deceive ourselves. 1 John 3:6 says anyone who abides in him does not sin. So we have John saying that we all sin, but we do not sin. That is best defined by the Roman doctrine of mortal and venial sin. We all sin venially, but we do not sin mortally. The difference being intentional and unintentional. That is contained in both the old and new testaments. In the old testament a person could offer a sacrifice for unintentional sin, but intentional sin in most cases required the death of the sinner.

I have had people mention intentional sin and unintentional before. I will admit this is a relatively new concept to me since I have never understood how any sin could ever be unintentional. If I interpret these verses again using the concept of intentional and unintentional sin, it still doesn't seem to change the context in which John is using confession.
However, with this being a relatively new concept to me, I would be interested in what sins you would classify as being of one or the other?

 

[HTacianas]

Look to 1 John 5:16:

1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

The writer separates "sin unto death" from "sin not unto death". Again, it's most developed in the Roman teaching of mortal and venial sin. A mortal sin is a "sin unto death" while a venial sin is a "sin not unto death". The old testament sacrificial system only atoned for venial sin, meaning a minor transgression. Mortal sin required the death of the sinner such as for murder, adultery, idolatry, etc.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

A "sin of ignorance" is a sin either not remembered immediately or a minor transgression one commits without thinking. Those are the kinds of things we are all guilty of. The writer of 1 John goes on:

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Losing your temper and shouting at someone in traffic is a petty unrighteousness as in "all unrighteousness is sin", but intentionally murdering a person is a "sin unto death".

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Repent, or else! That's not what people normally say, but it's often the sense I get from hearing 'you must repent.'

Before I start this thread, a quick question to those who believe we are to repent of our sins either for salvation or in a maintaining of salvation.... Are we to repent of the sins Jesus forgave and God no longer see's or are we repenting of the sins Jesus didn't forgive? I'm confused.

Whenever the subject of repentance comes up, there seems to be a variety of ideas as to what this actually means. I know in my personal life a colleague of mine holds strongly to the idea that to repent is to first recognize your sin (and it's never sin as a whole but usually a specific sin at that moment), then to confess the sin to God before asking to be forgiven that sin. I've heard it described as a change of mind, a change of heart, or a change of action. Some say it's to go from unbelief to belief and others say it's to never sin again. Well, to add to all the confusion I'm going to throw in my two cents.

The subject of repentance has been something I've had to think a lot on lately. As I said, a colleague of mine holds the act of repentance to a very high degree, so it's been on my mind a lot. As well as wanting to have a better grasp of it. Recently, I decided that instead of going to the bible and looking at all the versus that tell us to repent, because we all seem to interpret these differently, I would look at all the versus I could find where God repents. Because, who better than God to set the example, right? In doing so three things started to stand out to me in regards to repenting.

The first thing that became clear was in each instant God either had change of mind or he didn't. He either didn't do what he first said he was going to do or he carried through with what he said he was going to do regardless of the pleas of his prophet.

The second thing that stood out to me was whatever God's decision was, that was it. He never repented a second time over the same situation.

And the third thing that tickled my brain cells was when he repented, it was in place of doing the act, not after doing the act, like my colleague is so fond of preaching.

So, basically it's a change of mind that remains firm, and you do this instead of doing whatever the act is you're repenting of. Sounds simple enough. Except, there's something else that came to mind while trying to wrap my head around this. There are two relationships that are talked about in the bible. Our relationship with God and our relationship with our neighbour. And every time I've ever heard repentance being talked about, it was always in reference to our relationship with God, and nothing about our neighbour. This is important because repentance works differently between the two.

In our relationship with God, sin was dealt with by Jesus. He paid the penalty on our behalf, and in doing so cleansed us all in the sight of God. Meaning, God no longer see's our sin. Because he no longer see's our sin, there remains no sin to repent of but one. That sin is our unbelief, Matt 12:31, John 16:8-9. So, the only thing left to repent of is our unbelief with regards to our relationship with God. Which, in practical terms, is going from an unbeliever to a believer. That's it, that's all. We do this only once. To have to do this more than once means you didn't do it in the first place. And, if you're worried you didn't do it in the first place, rest assured, the fact you're worried about it is a good indication you did. Adding any more to this act of repentance is simply moving backwards. Now, I recognize there are versus that appear to suggest otherwise. But, something I've learned over the years is that if a verse seems to contradict what I know to be an underlying truth, then I realize I'm not understanding the verse in the manner the writer intended it to be.

As for our relationship with our neighbour, repentance is likely going to be a daily event. That said, it isn't in the manner my colleague believes. Instead, it's choosing to do differently than what may initially be a sinful act. For example, a driver on the highway decides not to signal and cuts me off. My initial reaction is probably going to be me showing him, in some unpleasant manner, how that made me feel. In this case, me choosing not to do so is me repenting. And I remain firm in my decision. I don't change my mind a moment later and carry through with my initial reaction. That is not repenting. Now, should the exact same scenario happen again a day later, but with someone different, and I have to repent again of the same thing, that's different. It's a different day and a different situation regardless of how similar they may be. And, I would still need to remain firm in my repentance in this situation as well.

Sometimes the strength to repent just isn't in us. It's here that we want to lean on God for his strength. It never disappoints God for us to do this, instead it pleases God. Should you fail and give in to temptation, it happens. This is the real world and you're only human. But suck it up, be an adult, and get on with your life. It never caught God off guard, just you. How about instead of confessing it to God and asking him for forgiveness ("But it makes me feel better." I'm sorry, but what do your feelings have to do with any of it?), you offer up a sacrifice for your sin. Since it seems Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough for you.

Repentance is simple, admit and prey to GOD about what you did wrong either against GOD or your neighbour ask for his forgiveness then do your very best and sin no more. Contrary to certain belief, your salvation depends on your perseverance and faithfulness, Jesus was clear about this.