Preterism

[4Jesus]

I personally believe that The raising of the Dead is ongoing, for you have to be first dead to be raised.
"Resurrection of the Living" is simply not taught in scripture, nor is "Resurrection of the Flesh".
Once, for all time.
Agape,
p70

Explain this passage to me P70:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

 

[GW]

4JESUS:
Explain this passage:
"and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17

GW:
Paul and the first-century Thessalonian congregation are the "we which are alive and remain."

The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70.

 

[parousia70]

Explain this passage to me P70:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

 

[OldShepherd]

4JESUS:
Explain this passage:
"and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17

GW:
Paul and the first-century Thessalonian congregation are the "we which are alive and remain."

The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70.

P70: This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

"The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70." But none of this is supported by scripture.

 

[Justme]

Hi Par70,

Yepper, that is exactly how I understand the scripture.

The funny thing here is I arrived at that understanding mostly from reading the bible for myself. I am aware that most mainline/conventional/ordinary/whatever is the word churches believe similarily, but I haven't attended a regular scheduled sunday service since my daughter was baptised 20 years ago. I think I read the old KJV from cover to cover for the first time about 43 years ago and I don't know how many times I've read various translations since. Another funny note is I first heard of this 'preterism' maybe 3 or 4 years ago. The bible told me the same things I read in full preterist sites. Go figure.

Thank you
Justme

 

[4Jesus]

But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

"The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70." But none of this is supported by scripture.

Excellent point about Paul OS!

Heh by the way, good to see you

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

"The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70." But none of this is supported by scripture.

Actually what GW and Par70 wrote is the only interpretation that the bible supports.

Does the bible tell us when the general resurrection is, (those who sleep in the dust,) yes it does:

Daniel 12

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.

Paul talks about that in 1 Thess 4. However, those alive at the coming WILL NOT precede those who sleep in the dust, those who died prior to the establishment of the kingdom of God which occured after the great time of wrath.

Jesus also talks about those in the dirt here:

John 5:

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live

This was said sometime in the early 30's AD and it is said HAS NOW COME so these guys are either raised up or they are still down there listening. Paul said they would be raised before WE were, the WE being him or those he wrote to. Since he died prior to 70 AD he probably had to take a dirt nap, but who knows.

Justme

 

[GW]

OS:
But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

GW:
Jesus told the apostles that some of them would be killed: "you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death" (Luke 21:16). Yet other apostles would remain alive until the Parousia (Matt 16:27-28; John 21:21-22).

Also, only "the dead" rise in the "resurrection of the dead. The Living do not. They get "caught up" after "the resurrection of the dead." When? Once they are "the dead."




GW:
The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70."

OS:
But none of this is supported by scripture.

GW:
It is all scripture. And, if the resurrection has not yet taken place, then the OT saints (and perhaps some of the NT saints) are still in hades/purgatorio/sheol. In the futurist paradigm, Daniel, David, Deborah etc. remain where they have been since they died -- i.e., in Hades/ purgatorio/ sheol). In the preterist paradigm, these saints have been raised out of Hades and they entered Heaven, following after Christ himself. They have been raised out from the dead.

 

[4Jesus]

Hi OS,

Actually what GW and Par70 wrote is the only interpretation that the bible supports.

Does the bible tell us when the general resurrection is, (those who sleep in the dust,) yes it does:

Daniel 12

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.

The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29). Paul said that:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cor.15:22

Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection. The good and evil will not be resurrected at the same time. John saw:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them. Rev.20:4

These are the saints of the first resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Rev.4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God. Then John saw:

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, which had not worshipped the beast, neither the image, neither had recieved his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands; they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are the tribulation saints in their martyred condition (as souls), then he saw them rise from the dead (they lived again, and they, with the first resurrection saints, reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection Rev.20:5

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev.20:6

Paul talks about that in 1 Thess 4. However, those alive at the coming WILL NOT precede those who sleep in the dust, those who died prior to the establishment of the kingdom of God which occured after the great time of wrath.

1Thess.4 is what I just described above and I don't see where you come up with a "general resurrection." Since God made a land grant with Israel and Jesus came to establish His Kingdom through the land grant which is an unconditional covenant with the nation of Israel and it will last forever (Gen.13:15; 2Sam.7:13,16; Jer.31:34), the Lord Jesus Christs Kingdom will be established on earth and has not happened yet.

Jesus also talks about those in the dirt here:

John 5:

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live

This was said sometime in the early 30's AD and it is said HAS NOW COME so these guys are either raised up or they are still down there listening. Paul said they would be raised before WE were, the WE being him or those he wrote to. Since he died prior to 70 AD he probably had to take a dirt nap, but who knows.

Justme

I refer you to what I said above.

When they therefore were come together, they asked him saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them

It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power. Acts 1:6,7The Greek word translated "times" is (chronos), and seasons in Greek is "Epochs" (kairos). Chronos regards time as a succession of events, one following the other in chronological order. In contrast, kairos denotes an era, a system or order of chronology, a period of time characterized by a distinctive development. This noun is frequedntly used for organization of historical events in their dispenstional category. Jesus never told the disciples that the earthly kingdom would not be established but he told them that things must follow a certain order before this happens.

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29).

This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.

You agree from Daniel 12 there will be a resurrection of the good and of the evil. When does Daniel 12 say that occurs?

I'll deal with John5 after.

Justme

 

[ksen]

Explain this passage to me P70:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

I Thess 4:16-17 says that "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together....." There is no mention of them dying and being caught up. It says they are ALIVE when they are caught up.

 

[ksen]

Hi OS,

Actually what GW and Par70 wrote is the only interpretation that the bible supports.

Does the bible tell us when the general resurrection is, (those who sleep in the dust,) yes it does:

Daniel 12

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.

Oh, this was worse than the Holocaust?

Jesus also talks about those in the dirt here:

John 5:

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live

This was said sometime in the early 30's AD and it is said HAS NOW COME so these guys are either raised up or they are still down there listening. Paul said they would be raised before WE were, the WE being him or those he wrote to. Since he died prior to 70 AD he probably had to take a dirt nap, but who knows.

Justme

Jesus said in Jn 5:25 the dead were hearing His voice then. So were dead people popping out of the ground at the time of Jn 5:25?

 

[Justme]

Hi ksen,

YOU SAID:
Oh, this was worse than the Holocaust?
********************

The holocaust was a terrible time indeed, but it is reffered to as the 'holocaust' and the time just before the coming of the son of man was called 'great tribulation. Jesus said there has never been a time like it, He didn't say why, but my guess is it is because it was the most important time in all of christianity. It was at the time of the establishment of the kingdom of God.

YOU SAID:
Jesus said in Jn 5:25 the dead were hearing His voice then. So were dead people popping out of the ground at the time of Jn 5:25?
*************************

Not to my knowledge, which is a good indication there never will be. The raising of the dead is in the spiritual realm, unseen to mortal living man.

Justme

 

[parousia70]

I Thess 4:16-17 says that "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together....." There is no mention of them dying and being caught up. It says they are ALIVE when they are caught up.

No, the text "alive and remain" simply referrs to those alive at the time of the 2nd coming, and not at the time of their own "catching up", which the text clearly states takes place not "at" the second coming, but sometime "after" the 2nd coming has already ocourred.

Scripture tells us elsewhere that only "after" a man has first died is he then judged. (Hebrews 9:27)

You have to be dead to be resurrected in "the resurrection of the dead"

 

[4Jesus]

Hi 4jesus,

The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29).

This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.

You agree from Daniel 12 there will be a resurrection of the good and of the evil. When does Daniel 12 say that occurs?

I'll deal with John5 after.

Justme

Actually it just mentions a resurrection. In (v.7) time, times, and a half is when there will be a tremendous time of persecution, so it looks like a resurrection will come before the persecution .

Sorry, I misunderstood your question.

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus

In (v.7) time, times, and a half.

Well, that explains how long something will take and if we could ever figure out for sure what 'time' means here we could then know when this resurrection actually happened. It is some 'times ' from when John the Baptist and Jesus were at the Jordon River OR it is something else.

The footnotes say that 'time' here means a year, well Jesus' ministry lasted about that.....but what gives from the two men at the river.

However, as to WHEN this resurrection occurs it is here:

But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

That time...is:

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

The resurrection talked about in Daniel 12 occurs somehow with the great tribulation.

Who would be in that resurrection?
Daniel would be one of them:
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

We know that those who sleep in the dirt are raised then, any others?

Justme

 

[4Jesus]

Hi 4jesus



Well, that explains how long something will take and if we could ever figure out for sure what 'time' means here we could then know when this resurrection actually happened. It is some 'times ' from when John the Baptist and Jesus were at the Jordon River OR it is something else.

The footnotes say that 'time' here means a year, well Jesus' ministry lasted about that.....but what gives from the two men at the river.

However, as to WHEN this resurrection occurs it is here:

But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

That time...is:

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

The resurrection talked about in Daniel 12 occurs somehow with the great tribulation.

Who would be in that resurrection?
Daniel would be one of them:
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

We know that those who sleep in the dirt are raised then, any others?

Justme

I changed my answer since I misunderstood your question I read the chapter and thought you meant the time, times and a half was inreference to the scattering of the people.

Before we go any farther please tell me are you still trying to say this is in reference to A.D.70?

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

I changed my answer since I misunderstood your question I read the chapter and thought you meant the time, times and a half was inreference to the scattering of the people.

Before we go any farther please tell me are you still trying to say this is in reference to A.D.70?

At this point I'm not putting it down to 70 AD, but that is ultimately where I have found it to wind up. For now let's just agree (or disagree) that the resurrection talked about in Dan 12 is connected in time to the great tribulation. And that Daniel would be one of those to be resurrected.

Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation.

If we agree on that,....well first do we agree on this?

Justme

 

[4Jesus]

Hi 4jesus,



At this point I'm not putting it down to 70 AD, but that is ultimately where I have found it to wind up. For now let's just agree (or disagree) that the resurrection talked about in Dan 12 is connected in time to the great tribulation. And that Daniel would be one of those to be resurrected.

Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation.

If we agree on that,....well first do we agree on this?

Justme

You really need to consider something before we go any farther. Leading up to chp.12 it is stated in chp.11 that the "king of the north" is the one that unltimately causes the time of trouble. Since Titus is the general of the forces of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem, he just doesn't fit the title "king of the north" and in 11:45 the "king of the north" builds a palace in Jerusalem. Titus never built a palace in Jerusalem.

 

[Justme]

Hi 4jesus,

You really need to consider something before we go any farther. Leading up to chp.12 it is stated in chp.11 that the "king of the north" is the one that unltimately causes the time of trouble. Since Titus is the general of the forces of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem, he just doesn't fit the title "king of the north" and in 11:45 the "king of the north" builds a palace in Jerusalem. Titus never built a palace in Jerusalem.

Good point, but isn't it the king of the south. Anyway you are right, every verse has to agree or we don't have the right answer. I guess there are verses that will forever remain unexplainable so maybe we should say almost every verse should agree.

At any rate what is talked about in 11 are various fueds going on in various places. I don't know the order and origin of kings of that time, but I have seen a webpage somewhere and I'll look it up. Are you able to give me your assumptions of who and where these battles will be fought in the future.

Justme