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Preterism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by psycmajor, Jun 4, 2002.

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  1. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
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    Sorry Justme, I forgot to ask, when did Rome make a 7 year deal or covenant with the Jews during the 70A.D. period?

    In the future I will be limiting my time on the forum. I will not deal with multi-question post in one setting since they take to long to deal with. I will address the points one at a time and I will get to them as I have time.
     
  2. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
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    1Cor.15:12-17....Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead not rise. FOR IF THE DEAD RISE NOT, THEN IS NOT CHRIST RAISED: AND IF CHRIST BE NOT RAISED, YOUR FIATH IS VAIN; YE ARE YET IN YOUR SINS......(v.18) THEN THEY WHICH ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN CHRIST ARE PERISHED.
     
  3. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,

    YOU WROTE:
    I don't appreciate your attitude, it was you who first brought up Daniel to OS in post #27, I replied in #29 about Paul speaking of a physical resurrection in 1Cor.15:22 and made other points about Rev. which you did not address. Then in #30 you dropped the resurrection and got on Daniel. Don't blame me if you can't keep the posts straight!
    *************************

    In post #29
    I quoted Daniel 12 and made this comment after.

    He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.
    *********************
    About the resurrection..................

    You responded with a quite a long post and I said:

    This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.

    You agree from Daniel 12 there will be a resurrection of the good and of the evil. When does Daniel 12 say that occurs?(this is what we agreed on,... I think)
    ****************************

    About the resurrection........

    Then we danced around a bit before I asked you this:

    Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation.
    *************************

    OS was talking with us a bit then and I asked him this:

    Am I correct in assuming that in your opinion then that Mother Teresa still 'sleeps'?

    About the resurrection...........

    Then you started in on a long explanation of what you saw in Daniel.
    I read it and asked you this:

    ...........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

    ********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

    Then in post 50 I dealt with anumber of your points and for the umpteenth time asked you this:

    .........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

    ********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****


    I sat by patiently while you went thru your Daniel theories, but suggested this:

    If you feel this is important, by all means lay it out. If you don't mind tho, do a summary at times to make sure we follow what your points are concerning the topic of the resurrections.
    ********************************

    What a disgusting attitude I have!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Anyway now in a post below you want to deal with one idea at a time.

    Praise the Lord and bring the ammunition, that's what I said here in post #30 in answer to your statement below:

    You said:The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29).

    I SAID:This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.
    ******************

    And you will note this is about the resurrection.

    After which I asked you this:

    ..........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

    ********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

    All of which is concerning the resurrection.

    So I have a question for you.

    ........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

    ********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

    Justme
     
  4. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,

    YOU SAID:Sorry Justme, I forgot to ask, when did Rome make a 7 year deal or covenant with the Jews during the 70A.D. period?
    ************************

    I never said they did, I don't recall the bible saying they did, I recall you saying something like that.

    Justme
     
  5. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    I never said anything of the sort and you know it. You're the one that keeps saying Daniel leads to Rome and A.D.70, so where does the 7yr. covenant (Dan.9:27) that is divided into two parts of 3 1/2 yrs fit in? When did Rome ever make this kind of covenant with the Jews? :confused: Huh?

    I'm getting ready to go somewhere, so I will not be on the forum the rest of the day, but will get back to you tomorrow if possible.
     
  6. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,

    Oh, it wasn't you.

    Well, it wasn't me, I am not aware of any 7 YEAR thing mixed into to 70 AD.

    What temple are they talking about here in 500+ BC?
    The first temple was destroyed when 567BC????
    What's Daniel talking about?
    It really doesn't matter because we can go to Luke 21 and see that:

    22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

    If you want to consider this is as a proof of the great tribulation being future, we can set Daniel 9:27 aside and see if it reconciles with all verses later.

    I'll summarize this and you tell me if I have your argument right.

    The great tribulation and hence, the resurrection is still future because there was no 7 year(Daniel 9:27) in 70 AD as you feel there should be to fulfill Daniel 9.

    Justme
     
  7. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    Since Jesus died after entering the city on Palm Sunday that would have been the culmination of "69 weeks". The 69th week did not end with the baptism of Jesus since Jesus didn't present Himself to the people as the Messiah until he rode into the city on Palm Sunday and then He was cut off.
     
  8. Philip

    Philip Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity

    +228
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Umm, are you sure about that?
     
  9. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    Thanks for pointing that out, I corrected my mistake but you of course realized it was a mistake since I said in the next sentence that Jesus rode into the city on Palm Sunday.
     
  10. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    The spirits of the wicked will die after the judgement not at the moment of death. 1Cor.15:12-20 does say there is a physical resurrection.
     
  11. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,

    Here are the verses you mention:

    12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
    20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    Let's mark those as verses that you say tells of a physical out of the grave walk around earth again resurrection.

    If this is referring to a physical get up out of the grave walk around earth again kind a resurrection we will find verses that agree with that. If we find verses that contradict that, your interpretation is false.

    Let's finally get to my verses now.
    Is Daniel one of the people who will sleep in the dirt and be resurrected at or sometime very near ther great tribulation? Daniel 12:1-3 and 12.

    Justme
     
  12. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,

    SOrry, I only dealt with one of your points in that last post.
    YOU SAID:

    The spirits of the wicked will die after the judgement not at the moment of death.
    *****************

    I can't recall any scripture at the moment that pins down the timing of the second death of the wicked. I'll look around a bit.

    Justme
     
  13. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    In the same chapter Paul says in [v.52] that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. If your trying to get me to say we will have the same bodies we possess now, I do not. As to the sense in which the resurrection body will be identical with the body laid aside in death, that is a matter on which the Scriptures come to no definite conclusion. Paul's chapter in 1Cor.15 shows this. The most that can be affirmed by 1Cor.15 is that God will reinvest the souls of men with bodies, and that these bodies, while changed, will have in some sense identity with the bodies that have experienced death.

    Whether Daniel is resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation or during that 7yr time period I am not sure. I will have do some reading to see when the OT believers are resurrected. The believers only in the Church Age are resurrected before the tribulation after the "fullness of the Gentiles" is completed.
     
  14. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    I've pointed this out to you before. Rev.20:5 are those that are unbelievers. The first resurrection is a resurrection to life (John 5:28, 29), the second resurrection is a resurrection to death. This happens after satan is bound for a thousand years (Rev.20.2). Which brings up the point that, if this has happened and is not in the future, it is hard to believe that satan is bound and nations (i.e.people) are not being deceived anymore (20:3).
     
  15. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,
    YOU SAID:

    The most that can be affirmed by 1Cor.15 is that God will reinvest the souls of men with bodies,

    I don't follow, where in 1 Cor 15 does it state that? Maybe I misunderstand. Are you saying the spirit comes back into the body in the grave at some point?

    YOU SAID:

    As to the sense in which the resurrection body will be identical with the body laid aside in death, that is a matter on which the Scriptures come to no definite conclusion.

    Except it does say one is eternal, one is incorruptable, one is immortal, one is heavenly. I agree that the bible does not say directly what the raised 'body' will look like.

    Justme
     
  16. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    HI 4jesus,

    Dan 12

    2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    When does this happen?
    Daniel 12

    There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

    At the time of the great tribulation. Before , after, during...doesn't say.

    This is talking about those who sleep in the dirt and Daniel is going to be one of them.
    13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

    As for you(Daniel) carry on til the end.(Daniel's death) Daniel will rest(sleep in the dirt)and the at the end of the days (sometime around the great tribulation) Daniel will be raised to eternal life.

    A side note here is that this is one more time the bible tells us the great tribulation is at the end of the days.

    You mentioned John 5:28,29 and you said it was the resurrection to life.

    28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

    What it says is ALL who are in their graves will hear His voice. Where does it say only the good will come out? It says they will ALL come out and will be raised to eternal life or be condemned.

    This agrees with this in Matthew 12:
    37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

    This is what happens to everybody. The judgement. I don't see a time difference for the good and evil. The judgement comes after you die Hebrews 9:27 and at that judgement you are aquitted or condemned.

    Matthew 12:

    36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

    So further on John 5:28,29 we see that ALL those that hear will 'come out.' That's all it says about it, there is no clear meaning given for 'come out', we have to determine that meaning from other verses.

    John 5
    25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

    So at the time Jesus made these statements we know the dead were HEARING the voice. It doesn't say they had 'come out', only that they hear.

    What comments do you have to this point?

    Justme
     
  17. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    Please quote me on saying that the spirit comes back to the body in the grave!!!! GEEEEZ Is this going to be the same merry-go-round that you and P70 keep Old Shepherd on?! I didn't say anything that could even me misconstrued as meaning that

    Paul makes it clear that if one denies the resurrection of believers, Jesus Christ would still be in the grave [v.13]. Read Luke 24:36-43, Jesus is not a spirit and yet He is not physical flesh. And as Acts 1:9,10 clearly states Jesus went to heaven in this form.
     
  18. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
    +0
    The first resurrection Rev.20:5 says that people are blessed and holy, are the wicked blessed and holy? NO, so it would make sense that they will not be part of the first resurrection. People that will be part of the first resurrection comes in three parts 1).the resurrection of Christ (the firstfruits-1Cor.15:23, Rev.1:5)...2).the reusrrection of the church (the dead in Christ-1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.4:16)...3).the reusrrection of the Old Testament and Tribulation saints (Re.20:4; Isaiah.26:19; Dan.12:2). The rest of the dead (unbelievers) lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5a) they will be raised in the second resurrection which is the second death [v.6].

    Your not paying attention to the Scriptures I am giving you.

    John 5:25 could be describing Matt.27:50-54 which says many not all of the saints that were in their graves and slept arose.
     
  19. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Member

    286
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    This could also be referring to Chapter 11 of John when Jesus raised Lazarus. The purpose of Jesus's miracles were to show that He was the Son of God and be glorified as John 11:4 states. If you will notice the centurion was convinced by what he saw in Matt.27:50-54 that Jesus was the Son of God.
     
  20. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi 4jesus,

    Paul makes it clear that if one denies the resurrection of believers, Jesus Christ would still be in the grave [v.13]. Read Luke 24:36-43, Jesus is not a spirit and yet He is not physical flesh. And as Acts 1:9,10 clearly states Jesus went to heaven in this form.[/QUOTE]

    I have no major disagreements here. I would say it different, but that's just me.

    Justme
     
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