• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Jesus did not CONTRADICT. Rather, he was using common apocalyptic judgment languge that was used in exactly the same way and for the same reasons by the O.T. prophets. Compare Christ's saying about the destruction of Jerusalem to these O.T. equivalent statments:

    2 Sam 22:8-10
    Judges 5:4-5
    Isa 13:10
    Isa 34:4
    Isa 24:3-6, 19-20


    And, in the book of Hebrews we see that the shaking and removal of Heavens and Earth are said to speak of the removal of the Old Covenant and its replacement with the New Covenant Kingdom (Hebrews 12:18-28).

    So, this is prophetic, apocalyptic language that is always used to pronounce Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals. The pattern is the same throughout the bible.
     
  2. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Good stuff, GW. The only reason why preterist eschatology sounds "insane" is because most Christians interpret the Word of God using a 21st Century, Western worldview, rather than interpreting it using a 1st Century Jewish worldview. None of what you have been saying sounds "strange" or "crazy" when you look at God's Word through the right set of lenses, and in the right context. The early believers understood exactly what you are talking about. That's why these passages require a certain amount of study rather than merely a "surface reading" in the English language.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  3. And just think. It has been there all the time. :scratch:
     
  4. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Exactly.

    When you read 2Peter 3:10, and it says that "the ELEMENTS shall melt", a person using a 21st Century worldview will immediately look at that and say, "hey, that MUST be talking about physical elements of the universe being destroyed by fire, because what else would "elements" mean?"

    And yet stoicheion(elements) is NEVER defined as physical elements of matter (even if the ancients had the scientific knowledge to comprehend "elements" of nature). Stoicheion is only ever defined as "as an arrangement of principles". GW's scripture references show this quite clearly. The Apostle Peter was not stating that the elements of nature would be burned up, but certain PRINCIPLES were about to be melted and those elements were the principles of the Law. Gal 4:3, Col 2:8, and Heb 5:12 all show this to be true. The definition does not change.

    A 21st Century mind fights such an idea, because in the English language, a person never defines "elements" as principles. But the melting of the principles of the Law was what Peter referred to, and it is based solely on the greek. Yet the 21st Century mind will fight it anyway.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  5. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    :D :D :D


    :wave: LOVE
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    One of the problems is that illiteracy is at an all time high. And not just general illiteracy, but especially concerning the Bible. Few Christians really know and study their bibles cover to cover. They don't understand the Covenants. They don't understand the ministries of the prophets and those fulfillments in O.T. times. They don't really understand the plan of redemption. They certainly don't understand the Day of Yahweh judgments and the eternal significance of the destruction of the Temple Religion.

    Furthermore, they don't know how to study the bible. How many people really understand that we are to interpret scripture with scripture? When we let the bible interpret itself it comes into perfect harmony. When we lift passages out of their intended contexts, however, and plop them down in the newspaper headlines of the 21st century, we get nothing but contradictions and chaos and false witness about the latest fad in endtimes expectations.

    Sad, but easily remedied by the correct understanding of bible prophecy.
     
  7. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Manifestation...A REAL futurist answer when they cannot back up what they believe with the Bible.

    Why are you relying on stereotypes? That's not cool.

    And I do back up what I say with the Bible, in Matthew 24: 40-41 that people will disappear. Well, where did these people go? When did they disappear? A world wide disappearance would be recorded in various other documents, correct? So, if Jesus wasn't lying, where is this documentation of their disappearances? Since everyone ignored my last post, it must have bothered someone...where is the Preterist response? I understand your POV and can see where you get it. But there are certain things you can't ignore.
     
  8. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    And another thing, someone posted something about how this world won't end and this earth will be here forever. Well, in Matthew 24: 35, Jesus says they will. So basically you're saying that Jesus is lying. I'd rather trust what Jesus said in the Bible, than what a man may have said. And when Jesus said generation, why couldn't he have meant the people living in the Church Age? If he didn't mean that, then Revelations wasn't written for us, but for the Jewish people of that time, so we should disregard the whole book.
     
  9. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi Psalm, good questions.

    The example of those "taken" and those "left" is explained in verses 37-39. Remember, "as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man".

    Noah's experience is given as the example. In verse 39, who are taken away? The righteous or the unrighteous? Verse 39 says the unrighteous were taken away in the judgment of the flood. This is where Christ said again, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be ".

    If the judgement upon the unrighteous in Noah's day parallels Christ's coming in judgment upon the unrighteous at Christ's coming then what will happen is this; the unrighteous will be "taken"(in judgment, just like in Noah's day), and the righteous will be left (just like Noah and his family). I believe that if you read those passages in order (verses 37-41) you will see that "disappearances" are not to be found in there, but the unrighteous being "taken" in judgment IS explicitly taught. That is one reason this passage points to 70AD; the Jews who rejected Christ were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage until the day all hell broke loose, and the destruction of the Jewish theocracy began. Something to think about, anyway.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  10. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    Acts6:5

    :D :D :D :D

    You are really getting creative.

    Tell me were you able to keep a straight face while writing that post????

    :D LOVE
     
  11. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    There are numerous prophecies in the Old Testament (like Isaiah 10:1-34) that were fulfilled hundreds of years before Christ. Yet the Jews in Jesus' day did not disregard any prophecy of Isaish and consider it useless just because some had been "fulfilled" hundreds of years prior. Although the prophecies were fulfilled, they were still scripture and contained principles that were eternal. Just because a book, chapter, or prophecy in the Bible is "fulfilled" doesn't mean it becomes useless or should be discarded. Revelation was not written to 21st Century believers, but to the Church living in that time. The Book of Galatians was written to the Galatian Church of the 1st Century, not to us. Is there any doubt in your mind about that? Just read the second verse of chapter one.

    But all scripture was writtenfor us, and for Christians living in any age, because God's Word is eternal (see my signature). All scripture is written for doctrine, correction, reproof and for instruction in righteousness. So no matter what age we are living in the scriptures are just as precious and just as necessary as when they were first penned.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  12. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    By using Matthew 22:23-33 and a preterist view, everyone that's gotten married since then isn't really married, and will go to hell for committing fornication. In Matthew 26: 26-29 Jesus says he won't drink of the fruit of the vine with them again, until he eats with them in his Father's kingdom. Now I ask you, find another place in the Bible where he drank wine with the disciples like he said he would in His Father's kingdom.
     
  13. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi Catchup.

    No creativity involved.

    1.) The greek word for "elements" and "principles" in 2Peter 3:10, Gal 4:3, Col 2:8, and Heb 5:12 is stoicheion, and in the greek it's SOLE meaning is "an arrangement of principles". Look up those passages and you will see this to be true. Also, look up the word in any greek dictionary, and once again the truth will be as clear as day.

    I'll tell you what, you find any passage or any definition of stoicheion that means anything other than an "an arrangement of principles; constituent, rudiment", and then you'll be justified to disregard my post as lunacy. Find me one definition of stoicheion that has to do with physical matter, earth, wind, fire, rain, etc., and I'll check myself into the nearest mental hospital. But if I've given you the definition of the "elements" in 2Peter 3 then I do not know what you think is so amusing about what I've said. I've stated grammatical facts from the scripture in question.

    2.) I'll also challenge you to look up Matthew 24:38-39 and find anyone other then the unrighteous being "taken away". Once again, if you meet my challenge you are justified to disregard my post and call me a basketcase. I have posted exactly what is found in scripture, not what is tainted by preconceived futuristic notions. If I'm wrong then show me where the righteous are taken up in Noah's day in verses 37-39, for Christ said his coming would be like Noah's day, and in Noah's day the unrighteous were "taken", as clearly shown in verse 39.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  14. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Okay, I'll take that challenge. Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. What's the world population now? 6 billion isn't it? That's an awful big elect...and some aren't even Christian, but you argue that they are the elect.
     
  15. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Oh, and in Noah's day, they didn't disappear, they were killed. And in the futurist view, the righteous will be called to God and saved like Noah, whereas the unrighteous will be killed. There's your parallel.
     
  16. angeleyez

    angeleyez New Member

    2
    +0
    I'm not sure who made the comment about Jesus's second coming already taken place but I beg to differ. Granted I am not a thelogy major nor a scholar when it comes to the bible. However, by using my common sense and God's word I have to inform you buddy that you are wrong. After Jesus' second coming things will be different... mark of the beast...... tribulation..... and yes those haven't happened and to all of you who think it has then God be with you..... well God Bless! :angel:
     
  17. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hey Psalm!

    Not quite understanding the connection between verses 21 and 38-39 (it's is pretty late, so maybe my brains going numb). I don't believe the "elect" are non-Christians. Also, the challenge was to find anyone other than the unrighteous being "taken" in verses 38-39.

    You're right, in Noah's day they didn't dissappear. Where in Matthew 24:36-44 does it say that people will "dissappear"? This is an example of reading preconceived views into the text. Verses 39-41 only mention people being "taken" or "left", and in Noah's day nobody "dissappeared; they either died or were left (like Noah). A closer parallel is that the righteous will be saved like Noah (who lived through the judgment and lived after it was over) while the unrighteous were taken in judgment like those who had lived in Noah's day. The parallel is not that God's people are "taken" and the unrighteous "left" to die, but that the unrighteous are "taken"(according to verse 39), and the righteous are "left"(like Noah). It is only when you read "rapture" into the passages that the "taken" and the "left" get confused.

    But even if you don't agree, at least you understand where I'm coming from. See you around.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  18. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Welcome, Angeleyez!
     
  19. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    The last thing I'm going to post is this. No one has yet to refute my post on page 7. You can interpret this passage and that passage all you want, but the following Scripture needs no interpretation. 1st Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words. Sounds to me like we're meeting him in the air at the end of the world. At least I am. I hope to see all of you there. God loves us all, and I'm trying my best to do the same.
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Psalm6 :wave:

    Your quote above is from your "page 7" post -you seemed somewhat indignant that no-one responded, so I thought I might.

    A question to my futurist friends:

    Can you give me a "biblically referenced" answer to the presence of evil, and sin filled people in the New Heaven and New Earth -note this is the New Heaven and Earth, NOT the Millennium. This is the re-created world YOU say is sinless and perfect, with nothing bad. So please explain the following:

    1) Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Healing presupposes SICKNESS which presupposes SIN -and ALL this in the final abode of eternal bliss. -and if it doesn't, please explain HOW.

    2) Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    One may debate what or who the "City" is -but how do YOU account for these "bad evil people," from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of yours which as YOU say comes at the final end -AFTER EVERYTHING??? ┬ľno more devil, no more sin, no more tears etc etc. Again, this CAN NOT be explained away as the millennium, as this is Rev 22 it is THE END.

    A biblical response would be appreciated; nothing highfalutin just biblical would be fine.

    davo
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...