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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi GW,

    I totally agree. And I find myself guilty of this too =) I was just on the Catholicism forum asking about Mary's perpetual virginity, which to me sounded ridiculous in light of Gal 1:19 and Mark 6:3. And then I found out that the word 'brother' back in biblical Judaism wasn't always understood literally as brother. This was a cultural thing in Jewish tradition.

    Actually, I hear that's how it is in China. They have a cultural thing where they use the term 'brother' when it may refer to a cousin, who obviously isn't a literal brother. So the fact is we, who aren't of Jewish descent, are at a huge disadvantage for not knowing the immediate cultural context and such.

    I think churches' ought to teach these subtle things, which make such huge differences. Fortunately it looks as if many of us understand '40 days and 40 nights' to be 40 days. The same goes for Jesus's death on 'friday' (night?) and resurrection on 'sunday' (morning) which is 3 days in Jewish tradition, yet in our culture we know Friday night to Sunday morning is closer to 2 full days or so. Anyway, I think we all need to carefully consider understanding a little bit more on Jewish culture to know what's going on in God's word.

    Also, I find it strange how many people don't see the connection with the passing away of the old covenant (Heb 8:8-13) and Paul's explanation of "Sarah and Hagar" (Gal 4:21-31). They're clearly talking about the same thing.

    And the same goes for the 'heavenly jerusalem' (Heb 12:22), the 'Jerusalem that is above' (Gal 4:26), and the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2). They're all related (well..in my opinion they are). :)

    -Jason
     
  2. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Psalm6,

    I guess I'll share a bit. The verse you listed clearly tells us that 'we' (those who apostle Paul was addressing) was expecting the coming of the lord in their life time.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     

  3. Good stuff, GW. I 100% agree. The only reason why preterist eschatology sounds "insane" is because most Christians do not know how interpret the Word of God. This is what I have been saying along. The key to understanding any passage of Scripture has always been a good grasp of the historical setting in which it was originally written.
     
  4. Hi brother Hoonbaba I really find it strange how people don't see the connecttion between "the last days" and the end of the covenant of the Law. In order to biblicaly have a start of a "new covenant" of God's grace there must be a last day to the covenant of the law. They're all biblicaly related. It really does not take the mind of a scientist to understand these things.
     
  5. Catchup still on answer? Would you mind showing us from the New Tatement where it says that Jesus would not return in the same nature as he appeared in the Old Testament.

    Where in the New Teastament does it say Jesus who is the(God) of the Old Testament would not appear in the same spiritual nature the(clouds)Matthew 26:64?

    Please show us where is saying Jesus-God would NOT appear in the same spiritual nature as he appeared in the Old Testament. A Bible reader like yourself should be able to find at lest one scripture which says Jesus would not appear in that same spiritual nature. :scratch:
     

  6. Good questions Psalm6. And by the way I was not talking about you when I said futurist don't back up what they believe with the Bible. At lest you are trying.

    As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.

    Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken
    and one left. (Matthew 24:37-41, People are so desperate to find Scriptural evidence for their un-Scriptural position that they will point to this text without ever considering its context.

    If they did, they would see, rather quickly, that what Jesus is saying here is that it is better to be "left"
    than to be "taken."

    Let us consider the comparison Jesus draws between the days of Noah and the coming of the Son of Man. Who were the ones who were taken in the flood? For as in those
    days before the flood they were eating and drinking,
    marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah
    entered the ark, and THEY WERE UNAWARE until the flood
    came and SWEPT THEM ALL AWAY, so will be the coming of
    the Son of Man. It should go without saying that those who (were unaware until the flood came) were NOT the righteous, but the wicked!

    The flood swept them all away (literally lifted up all) precisely because of their wickedness, which was an offense to God. Thus, if one will be taken and one left at the coming of the Son of Man, then it is better to be among those who are left. As in the days of the flood, God preserved a remnant to begin anew after the waters subsided, so to be (left) at the coming of the Son of Man is to be among the firstfruits of God's new creation which is brought into being by going through tribulation, not by being snatched out of it.

    Remember, God did not snatch Noah out of the flood. He had to ride it out for forty days and forty nights in an ark with animals of every kind. That's not exactly my idea of a comfortable existence. The Greek term for "taken" is paralambanetai meaning taken along. This is a most appropriate term for those who live in ignorance of the presence of God. (Luke 19:37-44) They were literally lifted up and "taken in captivity unto other nations. They were easily be taken along by any and every lie and deception, thus revealing their utter captivity to sin.

    The term for left is (aphietai) literally (sent off) or forgiven. This is a most appropriate term for the citizens of the kingdom of God. (Matthew 8:5-12; Romans 4:13)

    And like Noah had to ride out the forty days and forty nights in an ark (those saints who were in the ark of Christ were left) to ride through tribulation not by being snatched out of it.
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Manifestation70AD,

    I totally agree =)

    By the way, about that Matt 24:37-41 passage, Catholics agree with our (preterist) interpretation :)

    I found it interesting that some were able to pick it up. Then again they don't agree with "Left Behind" theology anyway. But of course a good number of them are partial-preterists.

    By the way, here's some comments by a Catholic brother, Scott Hahn, concerning the 'great city' in Revelation: (by the way, I included the scripture references in parenthesis)

    And we know that Jesus also prophesied that these things would happen in the generation of the apostles (by the way, this is not the olivet discourse):

    "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." (Matt 23:36)

    It's cool seeing that a well respected Catholic theologian like Scott Hahn would agree =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  8. I agree with this brother totally. I also agree with your statement that it is cool to see other people agree with our view. There is another brother who is not a preterist in my club on yahoo who agrees with the preterist views also.

    God is indeed opening the eyes of his people to (see the truth). When God called unbelieving Israel-Jerusalem these names like (Great Harlot, Babylon, Sodom and Egypt, Gog and Magog)

    The early church understood this to be that unbelieving Israel had now become like the old enemys of God who were trying to destroy his people. To understand God's words we must see things from God's prespective.

    Unconverted Judaism was an enemy of God because it kept people from the kingdom of God. (Matthew 23:13-15)
     
  9. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I will agree that Heb 10:37 is speaking about 70AD. However, I disagree that Heb. 9:28 refers to 70AD. First off notice it say that Jesus will “appear”. We learn from this verse that it will be his second appearance and that this appearance will be just like the first one except this time it will be apart from sin. So it is easy to see that his second coming will be a literal coming. Every eye will see him (Rev 1:7) He will return visible in the same manner that he went into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11). Are you denying the literal visible ascension of Jesus? I find it impossible to make Heb 9:28 point to the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Lets deal with Matt 25:31 first. When this verse says “then he will sit upon the thrown of his glory” this is not saying that he wasn’t already sitting on his thrown of glory because he already was as we learn in Acts 2. This is saying that he is now going to sit on his thrown of glory and judge all nations both the just and unjust both the dead and those that are alive. Matt. 25:31ff are talking about the second and final coming. If you make the verses fulfilled in 70AD you run into a problem in verse 46 because it says that the righteous go into eternal life and the wicked will go into everlasting punishment. With your view this means that there is no purpose for spreading the gospel or no chance at saving anyone because our fate has been sealed at 70AD and we have already been parted left and right we are either in heaven or hell.
    I find it interesting that a oneness preacher used Eph 5:25-27 as an answer for 1 Cort 15 trying to show me how Jesus could turn the kingdom over to himself. We can see from these verses that Christ died for the church and that we can be cleansed of our sins in baptism making us have the ability to be in his presence without spot or wrinkle. Please see Col 1:22 and 28. We also learn that at Jesus 2nd coming that he will receive the church to himself. John 14:3. Now I want you to notice in this verse that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us and that when he does receive the church to himself he does this so that we can be where he is. Are you arguing that we are now in heaven? I find this strange especially since we are to meet Jesus in the air and be with him forever at his second coming. 1Thess 4:17. At his 2nd coming we will be like him and we will shall see him as he is.1Jhon 3:2. Are you saying that we now see Christ as he is and that we have the same glorified body that he does right now?

    We also learn in 1Corth 15:24-28 that after he has receive the church to himself and he has destroyed his last enemy which is death then he will hand the kingdom over to the Father. Then Jesus reign will be over and he will be in subjection unto the father so that God will be all in all. Now when I say that Jesus reign will be over I mean that his redemptive reign and his function as a mediator will be over. However he will reign eternally as deity, see Rev. 1:6 and 3:21. If death was destroyed what do you think this death is spiritual death or physical death? If you say spiritual death than with your view we can’t sin today. If you say physical death then why are people still dieing today? Perhaps you will expound on how it is I am misinterpreting 1Corth 15 when it seems very clear in what it is stating.

    You claim that we are in the age that comes after Christ 2nd coming. Lets take a look at Luke 20:34-36. I want you to notice that is says that the SONS OF THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. This statement does not confine this to the Jews. No, it means all the sons of this age. Then is says THOSE that are worthy to attain that AGE and the resurrection from the dead neither marry or given in marriage. Again the word THOSE is not confined to the Jews but to whoever is worthy. Now let us keep in mind that the question asked here is who’s wife will she become out of these 7 brothers that are all DEAD. Jesus expounds beyond their question and tells them what will happen at the resurrection to all who are worthy. He tells them that they will be like the angles in heaven which means their wont be any marriage or giving in marriage. I also want to point out that it says nor can they die anymore. Now I want you to be honest with the scriptures here. Your view tells us that we are not married today and tells us that we cant die anymore. Again, if this means spiritual death than we cant sin or if it means physical death then why are people still dieing to today? Please tell me why we are still marrying today if we are in the age to come?

    We know that the resurrection will be a bodily one. Lazarus story is one example where Christ shows us that he had the power to resurrect someone. This was a bodily resurrection. Even better than that is Christ himself. He was raised from dead in his body. He was the firstfruits raised from the dead. This means that when the last day comes there will be a bodily resurrection just like Christ resurrection. To deny this is to Deny Christ bodily resurrection.(1Cort 15) There will be a resurrection of both the just and unjust (Acts 24:15) This resurrection will be the appointed DAY when the whole WORLD, not just the Jews, will be judged. We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and EVER knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess to God. (Rom 14:9-11) Did this happen at 70AD? I think not. When Jesus comes the righteous will be caught up in the air with him and be with Jesus forever (1Thess 4:17; See Also John 14:2-3 and Philp 3:20-21). Did this happen at 70AD? When Jesus APPEARS then we also will APPEAR with him in glory. This means an actual appearance.( Col 3:4; Acts 1:11; Rev 1:7) When he comes it will be like a thief in the night and their will be NO ESCAPE. (1Thess 5:1-3) In the destruction of Jerusalem it started around 67AD and went on for several years. Some Jews escaped and this destruction was by no means as a thief in the night. I could list more verses but this should be plenty to show that there is going to be a DAY when Jesus comes back literally and that the righteous will be resurrected and caught up in the air with him. All will stand before Christ and be judged. I think that its very clear that these verses has nothing to do with 70AD, but have everything to do with the final 2nd coming of Christ.

    Now lets take a quick look at the word till or until. You claim that this word allows you continue on. You say this why you can still partake of the Lords Supper as found in 1Cort 11:26. Lets try you technique out on a few scriptures. Let me ask you this, "What is the force of `till' in Matt. 1:24-25: `And Joseph took unto him his wife; and knew her not till she had brought forth a son (her firstborn son, KJV): and he called his name JESUS'"? Does Matthew mean Joseph continued abstaining from having sexual relations with his wife? What "till" means here it also means in 1 Cor. 11:26. After the actual Second Coming of Christ, the Lord's supper will cease to be observed! Again, lets apply your technique to Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: With your tactics we know have apostles and miracles still being able to be here today. Please explain your justification for changing the meaning of till on some verses but not on others? Please look at the following verses and tell me which meaning you apply to till.( Philp 1:10; 1Tim 6:14)

    You have stated that the kingdom came in 70AD. Please consider this verse. ”Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” What I want you to notice here is that Jesus states that kingdom of God doesn’t come with observation. These people thought there was going to some type of earthly kingdom. So they would be looking for armies and destruction to occur. You see Jesus is saying just the opposite of what you are claiming. The 70AD event was defiantly something that could be observed and it was done with armies and destruction. You contrast that with the day of Pentecost. There was nothing to observe like armies or destruction. No out of the blue came a loud noise that got the Jews attention and then the apostles began to speak in all those different languages proclaiming Jesus. Now I ask you, which one of these event better fit Luke 17:20?


    There isn’t any first century historical evidence to back up your view, however there is plenty to back up my view. Let us look at the historical record. The Apostolic Writings date from the time of the apostles, covering roughly from A.D. 75 to A.D. 150. Although not inspired, the writings serve as valuable historical evidence. Some "apostolic fathers," especially Clement of Rome, Ignatius, and Polycarp, overlapped in time with some of the apostles themselves and could have known them. Each one knew the history, beliefs, and practices of the early church and reflected these in their books and letters. They lived in and wrote from numerous different areas throughout the Roman Empire.

    Justin Martyr penned:

    "Some have reference to the first advent of Christ, ... but others had reference to his second advent, when He shall appear in glory. ... But, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him. ... He shall raise him up at His second advent ... Since we expect to receive again our own bodies though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible ... The bodies of men, after they have been dissolved, and like seeds resolved into earth, should in God's appointed time rise again and put on incorruption ... He shall come from heaven with glory, ... when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality ..."

    Clement of Rome said:

    "Let us consider, beloved, how the Lord continually proves to us that there shall be a future resurrection, of which He has rendered the Lord Jesus Christ the first fruits by raising Him from the dead."

    Polycarp wrote:

    "He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead ... But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also ... He will raise us up again from the dead."

    Ignatius said:

    "He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens ... and shall come at the end of the world ... The Father, therefore, who raised Him up, will also raise us up through Him, apart from whom no one will attain to true life ... Our bodies are to rise again (followed by the quotation of John 5:28-29 as evidence of the resurrection of our bodies)."<73>


    Clement of Rome:

    "Behold, the Lord (cometh), and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work."

    Polycarp:

    "He shall come at the end of the world ... to judge the living and the dead ... He, when He has raised mankind, will also judge them."

    Justin Martyr:

    "God calls all to repentance before the day of judgment comes .... Himself will pass judgment on the whole human race .... You shall not escape the coming judgment of God."

    Irenaeus:

    "The day of retribution on which the Lord will render to every one according to his works -- that is, the judgment."

    Hippolytus:

    "For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word. For the Father hath committed all judgment to Him .... For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous to be honored eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally."<99>

    You see, none of these people thought that the resurrection had already occurred or that Christ 2nd coming had already occurred. I hope this is sinking in.

    Can you please explain to me why Felix would be afraid about the judgment to come in Acts 24:25 when he was a Roman? If Paul was teaching your view that this judgment was the destruction of Jerusalem then Felix would not of been scared.

    One last thing you claim that all prophesy was fulfilled by 70AD. Please explain the following. The death of the diverse beast and the destruction of the legs of iron and feet of iron and clay in Dan. 2 and Dan. 7 (both of which refer to the Roman Empire) were not fulfilled till A.D. 476. I look forward to your response.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi Cougan, and God bless.

    You gave a long post, but I will attempt a short answer that will sort out differences in understandings.

    (1) To say Heb 10:37 and Heb 9:28 are two different things is foreign to the book of Hebrews. Note that 10:37-39 carry the subject out to "salvation of the soul" vs. a "drawing back unto perdition." The salvation of 10:39 is the salvation of 9:28. The mention of the "drawing back" is the endtimes apostasy (see book of Jude-all; 2 Tim 1:15; 1 Jn 2:18-19; 2 Peter 2-all; Heb 6:4-9). Plus, the heavenly rewards of 10:34-36 are dependent upon 10:37's coming, and this cross references to 1 Peter 1:3-7. That heavenly inheritance was yet-future to the early Church yet was about to come to them. It did at AD70 at the end of the Old Covenant Age.

    (2) Preterists believe the NATURE of Christ's Parousia is to be understood as a Day of the Lord. This also explains that Christ would come "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27) yet also as a thief in the night. Yahweh came down to earth many times in the O.T. era to destroy nations and individuals. He even often came down with clouds (Isa 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:8-16). Christ's Parousia was understood and described by the apostles as a Day of the Lord event, and there is no objection that AD 66-70 was Israel's greatest Day of the Lord in its history.

    (3) As for Matthew 25, most preterists see it as a peek into the heavenly realm of Christ's judgment of the dead at AD 70 as per Rev 20:12-15; 2 Cor 5:9-10; Rom 14:8-12). So the granting of eternal fire (Lake of Fire) or eternal life (Heaven) to the dead became actionable at AD 70. Christ begins judging nations and souls to eternal life or eternal fire at AD 70. You objected, saying that "this means that there is no purpose for spreading the gospel or no chance at saving anyone because our fate has been sealed at 70AD and we have already been parted left and right we are either in heaven or hell." First, I believe it is a depiction of the dead being sentenced to eternal fire or eternal life. So this is just a picture of Christ's role as judge of the living and the dead (Rom 14:8-12). However, if it's representative of the AD 70 judgment of earthly Israel your objection is also answered, for it would simply mean that the goats of Israel were destroyed physically and eternally and the sheep of Israel were saved physically and eternally.


    (4) As for John 14:1-3, I absolutely believe that he is referencing Heaven and promising the apostles that he was preparing that place. No one entered Heaven until AD 70. This is not to say Christ isn't here on earth, however, for he most certainly is and walks among us (cf. 2 Cor 6:16 and Rev 21:3; Eph 2:19-22). The Church is Jesus, partakers of his mystical glorified body and temple. It is a great mystery, but it is a fact (Eph 5:30-32; Eph 2:19-22).


    (5) 1 Thess 4:15-17 shows that only the dead were raised at the last trump. The living were not. Next, 1 John 3:2 is about the Church's sharing in the triumph of Christ as sons of God, but not knowing specifically what that would be like. 1 Jn 3:2 specifically cross references to Romans 8:18-19 which contextually is looking ahead to life apart from the bondage and corruption of the Law. It is looking ahead to when the sons of God would be manifest by some specific action of Heaven (AD 70). It was looking forward to full sonship and liberty of the New Covenant Age.


    (6) The Kingdom that Jesus delivers back up to the Father was the kingdom the usurping rulers of Israel tried to steal. Christ returned the theocracy of Israel back to Yahweh (see Matt 21:37-45.) The enemies Christ put under His feet were the rulers of Israel, the nearly 2 million Covenant-rejecting jews who died in AD 66-70, and many of the gentiles who were taken as well in various judgments (Rome's burning/the Year of the 4 emperors/Destruction of Jupiter's Temple, etc). That God would be "all in all" is to be cross referenced to Eph 1:22-23, Eph 1:10, Eph 4:6,10; Col 3:11, John 10:16; 1 Cor 3:21-23). And BTW, I agree with you that Jesus reigns eternally as deity.


    (7) 1 Cor 15:35-56 is the teaching on the resurrection of "THE DEAD" and what happened to the O.T. dead in Hades at Christ's AD 70 Parousia when the Law ended (1 Cor 15:55-56). The dead were raised out of hades into Heaven, and all the Church was changed forever by the granting of eternal life/redemption/salvation/sonship etc.


    (8) As for Luke 20:34-36, the "THAT AGE" which is mentioned is the age of AD 70 and beyond (the eternal New Covenant Age). The subjects being discussed in Luke 20 are all dead. The discussion is abou the resurrection of "THE DEAD." The hopeful state that is promised is what THE DEAD would receive at that time: they would not be married and would be in Heaven and like the angels. The reference that they "can't die anymore" should also be compared to Romans 6:9, Rev 2:11; Rev 20:6. By the way, preterists are fully orthodox on Christ's resurrection. Preterists ALSO stick to Paul's teaching about the saints' resurrection in 2 Cor 5:1-2 and 1 Cor 15:35-56.


    (9) Preterists absolutely believe the Lord's supper is instituted and to be observed forever. It no more ceased than did Passover cease once the jews made it into the Promised Land. "Till" does not always signify cessation afterwards. Did Timothy cease to give attention to reading, exhortation, and doctrine after Paul arrived? (1 Tim 4:13)


    (10) As for the Church Fathers, I hold them in very high regard. However, I believe that they were not inspired as were the apostles and made many, many, errors. Both Amillennialism and premillennialism grew up together from the 100s to the 400s until premillennialism was denounced a Heresy. Well, Amill and Premill were as different as night and day -- and, when premll was denounced as Heresy, that denounced Justin, Papias, Irenaeus, Montanus and a great many other wonderful ECFs. We need look no further than our own New Testament letters to see that the apostle's first disciples lacked the revelation and understanding that had been graced to Paul.


    With you in the victory of Christ,
    GW
     
  11. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Amen Cougan, you finally did what I was trying to do. First off, let me state that Christ will come two more times. Once to rapture the church out, and another time at the end of the world to resurrect the dead. The dead in Christ are in heaven, with perfect bodies, but not glorified ones. Those are only recieved in Rev 20: 4-6. GW, in 70 AD, many believers dies as well. The conquerors didn't say, oh, he's a Christian or Jew, we'll spare him. Nope, didn't happen. You are wrong in saying no one entered heaven until 70 AD. 2nd Kings Chapter 2:1-12. Elijah was taken into Heaven. So, your statement is incorrect. The statement about 1st Thess. 14-18 is also incorrect. The living weren't resurrected, as you have said. But the living WERE taken up to be with God. If we're not dead in Christ, we can't be resurrected in Christ. If we are saved when Christ returns, we will be caught up to God WITH the dead in Christ. As for Romans 8, skip back a few verses to verse 11. The living will be quickened by Christ, which means we will be made like him without experiencing death. In Matthew 21:37-45, the kingdom of God is taken from the Jews because of the thousands of years that they have disobeyed God. It is then given to the Gentiles, because God knows it will be fruitful and multiply there. He says that the stone(Gentiles) which the builders(Jews) rejected, is made the head of the corner. And what's this mess about Hades? Are you saying Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and the like were suffering and not with God in Heaven? That doesn't make much sense. NO WHERE in those verses is Hades mentioned or alluded to. So that's out. In the parable about the woman with seven husbands, it only means that all the dead up until Jesus died, went to heaven based on their sacrifices for their forgivness of sins. They didn't have Jesus, so they had to make the sacrifices themselves. It wasn't about believing in Jesus then, but about following the Law. After Jesus, we didn't need to make sacrifices because Jesus was our sacrifice, and all we have to do is believe on him. Moses, etc. went to Heaven, but not through Christ. They went through God. The new testament verses speak of those dead IN CHRIST, being resurrected, and rising from the grave. When Christ returns, all those who have yet to recieve their glorified bodies(those living at that time) will recieve them. The key to this point is 1st Thess. 4:14...For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH Him...That means that at the Second Coming, God will bring the dead in Christ ALONG WITH HIM, to quicken those of us who are still here, and to resurrect the dead in Christ which have not yet recieved their glorified bodies. This cooberates with my earlier statement about 1st Thess. It's funny how preterists toy with words and wording until it suits their needs. In one instance they or we means one thing, and in another instance it means another. Cougan delievered an excellent post, and I don't know that much more needs to be said, other that what he has said.
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    PSALM 6,

    (1) The dead in Christ are still in Hades if Jesus Christ has not returned to allow the apostles to be with him in Heaven's mansions (John 14:1-3). As of the time John 3:13 was spoken by Jesus, no man had yet ascended to God's heaven. The atonement was required for that blessing to be a reality for the saints, and Heaven hadn't even been prepared yet. David had not ascended as of Acts 2:34. Daniel doesn't get Heaven's inheritance until the last days (Daniel 12:13). It will not be until the Resurrection of the Dead that the saints are released from HADES. 1 Cor 15:55-56 states: And thus is brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. "Where of thee O Death is the sting? Where of thee O HADES is the victory? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is THE LAW." That is the victory slogan at the time of the resurrection of the dead, and it clearly speaks of a victory over HADES (compare to Rev 20:12-15). If Jesus Christ has not returned then not a single person has access to God's presence in Heaven's mansions at present. Listen to an entire radio discussion on this matter here:

    ON RESURRECTION AND THE AFTERLIFE
    http://arc2.m2ktalk.com/tft/032802.ram
    --requires Real Player



    (2) History testifies that Christians escaped the destruction of Israel by obeying Christ's command of Luke 21:20-22/Matt 24:15-20. They heeded the signs at AD 66 and immediately fled before spring of AD 67 when millions of New Covenant-rejecting jews swarmed into Jerusalem to keep the spring festivals and were then trapped in by armies to suffer the horrors of famines, plagues, wars, fires, etc. for the next 3.5 years unto total doom at AD 70. Christ' church was avenged and Christ's enemies destroyed.


    (3) Elijah was taken up into the sky, but he was not taken into Heaven. He was a sinner lacking the atonement and could not be in Heaven yet.

    (4) 1 Thess 4:15-17 clearly teaches that only the dead are raised at the last trump. The living cannot and did not precede them. BTW, 1 Thess 4:15-17 is not about a "rapture." It is about the resurrection of the dead saints. Compare to 1 Cor 15:51-53. All human beings have to die once (Heb 9:27). All human beings must die to get their heavenly spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:35-49; 2 Cor 5:1-2). The entire teaching on the resurrection of the dead is based upon that fact. Jesus showed the way, and Paul dogmatically insists that all MUST die once in order to get their heavenly spiritual bodies.

    (5) We've already had a discussion about Romans 8. The passage has to do with the Holy Spirit's quickening of our earthly bodies here and now so we don't have to be bound to the sinful nature of our mortal bodies. Romans 8:10-13 is parallel to Romans 6:11-13.


    (6) As for Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc, they most certainly were suffering separation from God and were not with God in heaven until AD 70. Do your homework. The O.T. place of the dead was not Heaven nor the Lake of Fire. It was HADES/SHEOL. This place of separation and death was feared by all the saints (Heb 2:15) and even Jesus went there immediately upon his death (Acts 2:27,31). That place was associated with pain and sting (Acts 2:24; 1 Cor 15:55-56). So long as man did not have an atonement he was not fit for Heaven. Jesus Christ came to make atonement and open up Heaven to receive the saints (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15). This grand opening of Heaven 's bliss and rewards for the saints happened at AD 70. They were still hoping for it to be at the time 1 Peter 1:3-5 and Heb 10:34-39 was written.

    (7) Somewhere you said that O.T. saints got to Heaven based on their blood sacrifices. Brother, you need to read the New Testament. Read Hebrews and Romans. Those sacrifices helped NO one with eternal life or with sins (Heb 10:1-18). The Law did nothing to help the saints find justification and righteousness with God (Gal 3:19-22). The Law only made them MORE guilty in God's sight for no man was able to keep it (excepting Jesus).

    I strongly encourage you to read the book of Galatians three straight times in a row. It will help us in our discussion together way more than these posts. There are some basic, fundamental, concepts that you are not understanding that can't be remedied without you fully grasping Paul's argument in Galatians.

    God bless!
     
  13. Hi Cougan :wave:

    In order to understand Heb. 9:28 you must grasp it from a Jewish Concepts. The Jewish rabbis have taunted Christians throughout church history saying Jesus can't be their Messiah, since the Messiah would accomplish redemption, and judgement, in one generation with no gaps, delays, parentheses of postponements. The full establishment of the Kingdom could not be delayed. (The Real Messiah. Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973. page 15).

    Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

    Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

    The above language closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64)

    If Jesus failed to fulfill his word the first time he could not be the Messiah. Notice how the Jews were to judge a false prophet by his own words. Deuteronomy 18:18-22 NKJV I will raise up from them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

    And if you say in your heart, (How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?)-When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, (if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken) the prophet has spoken it presumptuously you shall not be afraid of him.

    Reader this is not (our - the preterist opinion). This is inspired writ, i.e., God's opinion. If the thing the prophet speaks in God's name does NOT come to pass or happen (within the stated time frame) he was a false prophet and has not spoken for God. (Deut. 18:22)

    Well Jesus said he only said what the Father told him to say (John 37:49) And notice Paul said Jesus was the Prophet who God said He would send and if the people did not hear Him they would be (utterly destroyed from among the people) Acts 3:22-23. According to Paul (those were the days) the prophets spoke about vs 24. What happened in AD 70? The people who would not hear the words of God's Prophet-Jesus were utterly destroyed from among the people at His return. These is no such distinction in Scripture between a (first coming of Christ and a second coming of Christ).

    If Jesus failed to fulfill all His predictions the first time (the same generation) he could not be the Messiah. Notice how various will know Jewish writer express this. (Emphasis mine manif) The Jew refused to accept the excuse that the major prophecies concerning the Messiah will only be fulfilled in a "second coming." ( He expects the Messiah to complete his mission in his first attempt.) [The Real Messiah Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973 page 15.]

    Since Jesus did not fulfill the most important Messianic prophecies, they expected him to return to complete this task in a "second coming." At first, Christians expected that this (second coming) would come very shortly...in their lifetime. When their prayer was not an answered they began to hope that it would come a thousand years after Jesus' death. This was the millennium or thousand years kingdom. Finally after a thousand years passed and Jesus still had not returned, (they postponed his second coming to an indefinite time). We therefore see that the (early Christians were forced to radically alter the Jewish concept of the Messiah in order to explain Jesus failure). This compounded with the pagan influence in the (early church, gave birth to a Messianic concept totally alien to Judaism. [Pinchas Stolper, ed. pages 32, 33}

    You will discover that when ever any really strong question [such as why Jesus hasn't fulfilled all Messianic prophecies]..is asked [of the Christians], the (standard answer is that it refers to the second coming). It therefore becomes extremely important to ascertain the validity of this claim. The success of the Christian claim or its failure ( rest to a very large extent on the theory of the second coming).It is clearly an answer born of desperation. [Samuel Levin. You Take Jesus, I will Take God. Los Angeles 1980. Page 15

    Reader these Jews had the same concept as the Old Testament Jewish writers. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time.

    In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the Temple to announce that atonement had been accomplished (see Leviticus 9) Every early church understood this to be simply a reappearance during the same age..(see Hebrews 9:24-28)

    The Jews never had the concept of a second coming, and since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable to respect their inspired writting more then our traditions or anyone else's uninspired opinion today.

    Was the (second advent) idea the original understand of the apostolic church, or was it just an invention of the mid-second century fathers? Notice what this writers says about this subject. (The thought of a postponement of the Parousia appears all through 2 Clement but here it is expressly mentioned for the first time. Thus about the middle of the second century a decisive turning point occurs one which can be compared in significance to all other great turning points, including the Reformation). Obviously we cannot fix this turning point precisely at the year 150 for it took a while until the thought caught hold every where.

    (But a development does begin with the Shepherd of Hermas which could not be stopped a development at the end of which we stand today). As soon as the thought of a postponement of the Parousia was uttered once and indeed not only incidentally but thoroughly presented in an entire writing it developed its own life and power. At first people looked at it as only a brief postponement, as the Shepherd of Hermas clearly expressed. But soon as the end of the world did not occur it was conceived of as a longer and longer period until finally this is today's situation nothing but the thought of a postponement exists in people's consciousness. [Kurt Aland. A History of Christianity. (2 vols) Vol 1 page 87-102].

    To anyone sensitive to the issue of inspiration of Scripture these words should drop like bombshells. How can we justify the second century brethren tampering with the clear words of Scripture like this? It would have been batter for them to change their physical-literal interpretative method then to put the NT writers (and Jesus) in the position of false prediction.

    This is were the mistake was first made and it has affected Christianity ever since (as Kurt Aland has points out). His statement is just one of many which goes back in Christian history. Unfortunately it accursed before the creeds were developed, so this misunderstanding was incorporated into them.

    When the remaining fulfillments associated with Christ's parousia did not occur in the physical literal way they had expected they assumed that Christ had not returned at all. So they began adjusting their concept of the TIME of fulfillment instead of considering the possibility that their concepts of the NATURE of fulfillment were the only things needing adjustment.

    We must immerse ourselves in the understanding culture history religion and Jewish language of the Jews of Jesus day if we hope to go any further and deeper in our understanding of the Bible. Salvation is of the Jews. Christianity is not some totally new religion. It is the fulfillment of the promises made to the Jews (on behalf of the Gentiles as well. (Romans 15:8-9) It was directed (to the Jews first).

    It is no longer dangerous to claim affinity with the OT Prophets and immerse ourselves in their Jewish understanding culture history religion so we could surgically remove the pagan influences and replace them with a much more Jewish (OT tyological) understanding which recognizes that Jesus is the very same God of the OT whom David said delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). What a difference in our understanding this would make!
     
  14. Hi Cougan.

    YES I am denying a literal visible ascension of Jesus. I hold too a Jewish Old Testament concept of the return of Christ. And so does the angels in Acts.

    Let's look at the verse...Who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven (Acts 1:11)

    What was the manner(fashion) that the disciplew saw him go into heaven? Verse nine contains the answer. Now then He had spoken these things, while thay watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9) Verse eleven is speaking of the manner of Jesus going into heaven. What was the manner? (A cloud received Him out of their sight.

    Now just to see if I am correct in our exegesis of these verses, let's ask another question. Did Jesus ever mention that he would return in the same manner as he appeared in the Old Testament in the clouds? It is as you said Nevertheless I (say to you) hereafter (you will see) the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:64)

    As you can see, this verse bears witness that Jesus would returned in like manner to that of His departure. It should also be noticed that Jesus told (Caiaphas that hewould see his return. A cloud, or clouds, is the key. Clouds are the way God chose to describe to us the transition from the physical, material realm to the spiritual realm (which is actually a different dimension).

    Of course clouds also speak of vengeance, wrath, and judgment against the enemies of God. This is the reason Jesus chose to use apocalyptic language as He described His soon return to the people of His day. (Matt. 26:64)
     
  15. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    GW, in the bible it says Elijah was taken up into Heaven, so whatever. It says he was taken to heaven, not hades, not broadway, heaven. Is there a preterist heaven I don't know about? There must be. Guess I'm the dumb one now. I always thought when God said heaven, he meant heaven. I never knew I didn't truly understand that word. After you said that about Elijah, I cast the rest of your argument into irrelevancy. Oh, and Hades is a god of the underworld according to Greek/Roman lore. I guess the writers of the Bible were too ignorant to know that though. Your whole argument goes against the Bible. It says there will be a rapture. I take it as that because it says WE WHO ARE ALIVE AT THE TIME OF THE COMING. The definition of alive is marked by much life, animation, or activity. But I guess Webster's Dictionary is stupid too, huh? Hey, you do YOUR homework and learn the basic concepts of certain english words. I guess everyone in the old testament went to heaven, cause God didn't tell them to sacrifice to him, nah, the Bible lied about that. You die and go to hades or wherever you want to go, and I'll die and go to heaven, or be raptured. Your argument no longer has any ground upon which to stand! The bible cleary says Elijah was taken up into heaven, but I guess it lied there too.
     
  16. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    I know I said I was done, but I think it's funny how preterists, strictly interpret verses concerning the coming of Christ, but take the WHOLE book of Revelations as purely symbolic. Preterism must de-emphasize Acts 1:11 in which it is stated that Jesus will come back in the same way that the disciples saw him go into heaven. Yet Preterism claims to be based on an extremely literal interpretation, so bending the rules in this verse is inconsistent. What about chapter 12 of Daniel? Does it not say that in the time of the end, knowledge of the prophecies will be increased? That leads me to my point about the two witnesses of Revelations. It says that the whole world will see their dead bodies and rejoice. THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE UNTIL AT LEAST THE LAST 100 YEARS. The world couldn't have seem them back then. It also says that they were resurrected, now, don't you suppose an event like that would be recorded somewhere??? Makes sense to me. Also, in Matthew 24:14, it says that until the gospel would be preached in all the world BEFORE the end, and I don't recollect the native americans talking about Jesus before 1492, and some parts of africa have just now heard it! You say we futurists don't interpret the Bible correctly, but that makes me think you're more incorrect due to the fact that you say your view is the ONLY correct view, and that anyone else who doesn't think that is stupid. I say that there's evidence for both views, but there is more for futurism. Why are we here if Christ has already came?

    For those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. (Rom 2:8,9)

    Clearly Paul is not referring to the destruction in 70 A.D., but rather, to final judgment which is not limited to Jews only, but is for all unbelievers.

    When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Col 3:4)

    In full preterism, not only is Christ's coming invisible, but His glory is also invisible. This verse refers to the second coming of Christ which in full preterism occurs in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem. Christ's glory at the second coming is limited to the carnage by the Roman army - not a very glorious manifestation of the glorified Christ.

    To wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thess 1:10)

    In full preterism, this verse only applies to the believers who lived between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D. This verse does not have any application at all for believers after that time, which includes us today. Yet in context, the verse appears to have general application for all believers of all time. But Full Preterism takes away our hope by teaching that there is no future second coming of Christ to rescue us from the judgment for our sins.

    The wrath of God has come upon them [the Jews] at last. (1 Thess 2:16)

    In full preterism, the wrath of God occurred in 70 A.D. But this verse, which was written before that time, states that the wrath of God has already come upon the Jews. The correct understanding of this verse is that when Jesus died, He provided salvation for those who would believe. But He also provided judgment upon those who will reject Him, which includes the Jewish leaders who had Him crucified. The Israelites had been rejecting God for centuries, but with the first coming of Christ, their rejection of God is sealed in their rejection of Christ, the Messiah. The actual judgment will take place immediately after Christ's second coming in the future.

    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Mat 24:34)

    Full Preterists pride themselves on how literal they are in interpreting the Olivet Discourse. But this is an overstatement. The following verses refer to (1) the second coming of Christ, visible to everyone, and (2) a rapture (resurrection) in which all believers are removed from the earth:

    At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Mat 24:30-31)

    There is no historical evidence that such things occurred. No historians wrote anything at all about the mysterious disappearance of millions of Christians. In fact, by 96 A.D., the emperor Domitian was persecuting Christians in the province of Asia. There would not be any Christians to persecute if a rapture occurred in 70 A.D.

    The solution to understanding the phrase "this generation" Mathew 24:34 is that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus is talking about (1) the destruction of Jerusalem, and (2) His second coming at the end of the world. He had just finished describing the destruction of Jerusalem in detail (but alluded to His second coming). After verse 34, He begins talking about His second coming in detail. The events that occur in the lifetime of those He was speaking to are the events in 70 A.D. His second coming is yet future.


    In preterism, the events that were fulfilled are:


    The Apostasy immediately before the second coming of Christ


    The second coming of Christ


    The general resurrection of all believers and unbelievers


    The destruction of the earth


    The great white throne judgment


    The New Heavens and New Earth


    The Lake of Fire


    According to Full Preterism, the rapture occurred in 70 A.D. and those believers who were alert and ready were taken. But there is no historical evidence for an event of this magnitude.

    Full Preterists place the 1,000 years of Revelation chapter 20 as occurring after 70 A.D. - perhaps hundreds or thousands of years later. But the basis of Full Preterism is the belief that all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D. The need to make this exception indicates that there is a fatal flaw in the viewpoint.

    In Full Preterism, a major emphasis of the New Testament is the focus on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Much of what seems to be targeted to all believers of all times is applied specifically to the believers living before 70 A.D.

    Deriving the doctrine of Full Preterism requires placing undue emphasis on the parables of Jesus. Then, other passages are interpreted from this viewpoint. But many passages used to support Full Preterism have a more natural interpretation which does not support that view at all.

    Full Preterism must de-emphasize Acts 1:11 in which it is stated that Jesus will come back in the same way that the disciples saw him go into heaven. Yet Full Preterism claims to be based on an extremely literal interpretation, so bending the rules in this verse is inconsistent.


    Full Preterism is derived by reading the Olivet Discourse in Mathew 24 with two assumptions:

    That Jesus is speaking about (1) the destruction of Jerusalem, and (2) of His second coming as one event, and

    That there is no "gap" before Mathew 24:27, even though there is a clear gap in the parallel account in Luke 21:24.

    Many passages in the Bible are very troubling when looked at from the Full Preterist perspective.

    He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:8)

    In full preterism, the day of the Lord is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. This verse is applied to that time and no longer applies to any Christian after that time. But the whole point of the gospel is that the work of Christ applies to all believers of all time, not just the period before 70 A.D.

    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Cor 15:20)

    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. (1 Cor 15:22-24)

    These verses from 1 Corinthians chapter 15 establish the doctrine of the resurrection of all believers. The resurrection will happen immediately before the end, and all believers will take part in it. But in full preterism, the end is 70 A.D. so the resurrection is no longer considered to be a physical, material, bodily resurrection, but becomes a spiritual event. And what about believers who die after 70 A.D.? How do they participate in the resurrection? In my opinion, these verses are fatal to the full preterist position.

    Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Heb 9:28)

    This passage specifies that Christ will come a second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. In full preterism the second coming occurs in 70 A.D. so Christ comes to bring salvation to those believers who are alive at that time. But this confuses the purpose for His second coming. He came the first time to bear the sin of all believers of all time, not just those who were alive in 30 A.D. And He comes the second time to complete the salvation process that He put in place at that time. Thus, the second coming has to occur as the last event on earth. All believers of all time whether dead or living at the time of the second coming are saved from the judgment of God at the great white throne judgment.

    In the book of Romans Paul speaks of the wrath of God. In the full preterist position, this wrath is the judgment on Israel, Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. But this is not what Paul had in mind. The passages in question:

    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. (Rom 1:18)

    This wrath would have to be limited to the Israelites in the full preterism position. The question we must answer is, "is Paul speaking only to the Israelites?" In order for full preterism to be correct, the answer to this must be, "Yes, only to the Israelites."

    The following verse could imply that Paul is speaking to the Israelites:

    Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Rom 1:32)

    After all, the Israelites are the ones who were given God's law. But Paul is writing to the believers in Rome and he emphasizes that he is writing to Gentiles:

    Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (Rom 1:5)

    Also, Paul emphasizes that God has revealed Himself to all men, long before Moses ever gave the law:

    For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Rom 1:20)

    So Paul is speaking to all believers, not merely Jews. And he is definitely speaking to Gentile believers in addition to Jewish believers.

    But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. (Rom 2:5)

    In the full preterist view, the day of God's wrath is 70 A.D. The disturbing side-effects of this are:
    The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. become the day in which God judges all unbelievers of all time for their sin.

    There is no final great white throne judgment in which God judges sin.


    Nonbelievers from 70 A.D. on into the future aren't judged at all since the judgment happened in 70 A.D.


    The judgment of Israel, Jerusalem and the temple did not happen in Rome. So how would the Romans be affected by this?

    For those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. (Rom 2:8,9)

    Clearly Paul is not referring to the destruction in 70 A.D., but rather, to final judgment which is not limited to Jews only, but is for all unbelievers.

    When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. (Col 3:4)

    In full preterism, not only is Christ's coming invisible, but His glory is also invisible. This verse refers to the second coming of Christ which in full preterism occurs in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem. Christ's glory at the second coming is limited to the carnage by the Roman army - not a very glorious manifestation of the glorified Christ.

    To wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thess 1:10)
     
  17. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    In full preterism, this verse only applies to the believers who lived between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D. This verse does not have any application at all for believers after that time, which includes us today. Yet in context, the verse appears to have general application for all believers of all time. But Full Preterism takes away our hope by teaching that there is no future second coming of Christ to rescue us from the judgment for our sins.

    The wrath of God has come upon them [the Jews] at last. (1 Thess 2:16)

    In full preterism, the wrath of God occurred in 70 A.D. But this verse, which was written before that time, states that the wrath of God has already come upon the Jews. The correct understanding of this verse is that when Jesus died, He provided salvation for those who would believe. But He also provided judgment upon those who will reject Him, which includes the Jewish leaders who had Him crucified. The Israelites had been rejecting God for centuries, but with the first coming of Christ, their rejection of God is sealed in their rejection of Christ, the Messiah. The actual judgment will take place immediately after Christ's second coming in the future.

    For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:9)

    In Full Preterism the wrath of God occurred in 70 A.D. Yet many believers were also destroyed in this event. So there is a contradiction. But the word "wrath" refers to God's final judgment at the great white throne judgment.

    For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1 Cor 11:26)

    If we interpret this verse in the full preterist fashion then we would no longer need to practice communion since the verse says until He comes.

    To keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Tim 6:14)

    If we interpret this verse in the full preterist fashion then we would no longer need to remain pure and spotless as Christians.

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. (2 Pet 3:10)

    As you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. (2 Pet 3:12)

    Full Preterists claim to be literal. But they are not consistently literal. The above verses could not be literally applied to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. However, they could be applied to the destruction of the world at the end of the world.

    You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
    The word "end" here refers to the Jewish War in 67-70 A.D. But this is not the end of the world. The disciples mistakenly believe that these rumors of wars indicates that the millennial kingdom (which they think is the end) is just about to happen. But the end of the world is a long way off in the far distant future.

    They thought that the word "end" referred to the beginning of the millennial kingdom but Jesus corrects them. The real meaning of the world "end" is the end of the world at the 2nd coming of Christ immediately before the final judgment.

    In this metaphor the word "birth" refers to the destruction of the nation of Israel in the Jewish War of 70 A.D. which would make it clear to everyone that the church is now the "true" Israel. As Israel is destroyed, the church is born. So when the disciples hear about the troubles happening in Israel, this to be a sign for them.

    "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
    This refers to the persecution of the church by the Jews and the Romans. It has application to the persecution of the church throughout the entire church age.

    At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other.
    Under the pressure of persecution by the Jews many Christians will turn away from the faith. This will cause division among believers and former believers.

    And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
    There will be various false teachings. Many of the books in the New Testament deal with this issue.

    Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.
    This is as a result of the deception and persecution referred to in verses 9 - 11.

    But he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
    In order for a person to be truly saved they must endure the persecution and not be led astray by the deceivers. This is an important theme in the book of Revelation.

    And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
    The book of Acts testifies that the gospel was preached to the whole world.
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. (Acts 1:8)
    Jerusalem and the temple will not be destroyed (in 70 A.D.) until this happens. All the books of the New Testament (except possibly Revelation) were written before this event and we can verify from the New Testament that the church had penetrated the entire Roman Empire.

    So when you see standing in the holy place "the abomination that causes desolation," spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand.
    There are 3 verses in the book of Daniel in which he refers to the "abomination that causes desolation". Jesus is referring to only one of these (Daniel 12:11):
    9:27 - the 70 7's. Christ's death at Golgotha on a wing of the temple is the abomination that causes desolation. This ultimately leads to God's judgment of the nation of Israel in 70 A.D.

    11:31 - it is Antiochus Epiphanes who set up the abomination that causes desolation when he puts a pagan altar in the temple.

    12:11 - the Jewish War of 67 -70 A.D. The abomination that causes desolation concerns the misuse of the temple. In this case it was when Eleazar admitted armed terrorists into the temple.

    Verses 16 - 20
    Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
    Christ's warning is very practical. The violation of the God-ordained use of the temple is a sign that a horrible calamity is about to fall upon the people living in Jerusalem and Judea. Those who heed His words will be spared from being massacred and trapped in Jerusalem during the Roman siege.

    Verse 21
    For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
    The nation of Israel was completely destroyed by the Romans. Jerusalem was set on fire and the temple was destroyed.

    Verse 22
    If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
    God chose to spare some of them. Josephus reports that in the siege of Jerusalem 1,100,000 were killed but 97,000 were taken prisoner. Of these, many more were killed over the next several years. But there were survivors among them and among those who managed to escape.

    Verses 23 and 24
    At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
    The revolutionary madness that overtook Israel and led to the Jewish War deceived many. The Greek word "christ" is the Hebrew word "messiah", which the Jews believed referred to any political leader of the Jews who would lead them in a revolution against the Romans. In typical Jewish style these false political leaders would use every extraordinary event that happened as a sign or miracle and use it as evidence that they were indeed God's anointed Messiah who would overthrow the yoke of the Romans.

    Verse 26
    So if anyone tells you, "There he is, out in the desert," do not go out; or, "Here he is, in the inner rooms," do not believe it.
    It was common for the Jewish revolutionaries to travel to desert hideouts such as Masada where they would fight the Romans and procure weapons. Sometimes they would flee to the desert for safety. There was also a lot of revolutionary activity in the inner rooms of the temple because they were safe there from the Romans since the Romans would not violate the temple. It was only in the final siege of Jerusalem that the Romans finally violated the sanctity of the temple. It was actually the Jewish revolutionaries who were constantly violating the temple by (1) using it as a military command post, (2) allowing armed terrorists to hide there, and (3) assassinating opponents and one another.

    Verse 27
    For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
    Jesus transitions from talking about false messiahs, to talking about Himself, the true Messiah.

    Jesus here makes a statement about the coming of the true Messiah (the 2nd coming) that is unmistakable. The coming of the Messiah upon the world will be visible to all. Some preterists claim that Christ's 2nd coming occurred in 70 A.D. as an invisible event but from this verse we can say that this is incorrect.

    Jesus now begins talking about the 2nd coming, the destruction of the world and the final judgment.

    Verse 28
    Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
    A figure of speech meaning that by looking at the visible effects (the gathering vultures) we can know for certain about that which caused the effects (a carcass, which attracts vultures). In other words, by noticing that the things Jesus has been talking about are coming to pass (the effects), we can be sure of the cause which is that (1) God has replaced the nation of Israel with the church, (2) God is judging Israel for their rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
     
  18. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Verse 29
    Immediately after the distress of those days "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."
    Now we jump to 2nd coming, the destruction of the world by fire, and the final judgment.

    The "distress of those days" refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, while the images of the signs in the heavens refer to the 2nd coming, the destruction of the world, and the final judgment. He is thus contrasting these two judgments of God - one directed toward the disobedient nation of Israel and the other directed to the entire world and all the wicked who have ever lived.

    The word "immediately" is a literary device that we see often in the New Testament. It does not mean that little or no time transpired between the two events but that (1) one event follows the other, and (2) we do not need to concern ourselves with what happens between the two events. An example to illustrate the usage:
    Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked. (Mathew 21:19)

    In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!" (Mark 11:20)

    Verse 30
    At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
    Everyone will see Jesus when He comes again. And everyone will mourn because of sin. Unbelievers will mourn because they are about to be judged for their sin, and believers will mourn because Jesus had to die for their sin.

    Verse 31
    And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
    The resurrection from the dead of all believers occurs at the 2nd coming of Christ. Two parallel passages:
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Cor 15:51-52)

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    In the futurist view there is no rapture of the church as a separate event. The "rapture" is the same as the resurrection and it happens before the 7 years of tribulation.

    Verse 32
    Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
    Jesus transitions back to the topic of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

    Similar to verse 28 to indicate that by seeing the signs we can know that the predicted events will shortly occur.

    Verse 33
    Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
    Jesus continues to warn them about the troubles with the Romans that the Jewish revolutionaries will soon provoke.

    Verse 34
    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
    Many of the people who are listening to Jesus in about 30 A.D. will still be alive to witness the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Some may even listen to His warnings and flee Jerusalem when they see the signs and thus escape destruction.

    Verse 36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
    Jesus is now talking about the 2nd coming and the destruction of the world and continues on this topic for the remainder of the passage.

    It can happen at any time. There is only one prophetic event that must happen first and that will happen within 40 years - the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

    Verses 37 - 39
    As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
    These verses indicate that there will not be a great tribulation (ala premillennialism) immediately before the 2nd coming. Just as the great flood came without warning (except Noah's preaching about it) so, also, the 2nd coming will come without warning, followed by the destruction of the world by fire. It can happen at any time so we should always be ready. Those who decide to wait to get their lives right with God are taking a big risk because they may not get the chance. The 2nd coming could come one minute from now or it could come thousands of years from now or beyond. There is no way to know because there are no more prophetic events that must happen as a precondition. The very next prophetic event to occur is the 2nd coming of Christ followed by the destruction of the world by fire and the final judgment.

    Verses 40 and 41
    Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
    The people who are taken are the believers. We know this from the previous verses in which the people destroyed by the flood are "left." They are left for judgment to the great white throne judgment. The ones who are "taken" are resurrected and taken into the new heavens and new earth.

    Verse 42
    Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
    There is no way to know because there are no clues and no prophetic events that must yet happen.

    Verse 43
    But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
    The idea of the thief breaking into the house emphasizes that we need to be watching to prevent the enemy from stealing from us.

    Verse 44
    So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
    Just as an owner of a home needs to be vigilant to prevent a thief from breaking in, so also believers need to be vigilant to walk with the Lord at all times so if He comes we will be ready. We should live as if He will come at any moment. If we knew Christ was returning tomorrow how would we live today? That is the idea.

    In conclusion, if the Jews knew that Christ would "return" shortly, then the above verse would be untrue. But Jesus didn't come then, he IS coming and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM IN HIS GLORY!!! I am finished on this post. God bless you all, and I will continue to pray that you see the truth.
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    REPLY BY GW:
    Jesus said:

    John 3:13
    "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.


    That's a clear and straighforward statement. Two possible exceptions are often suggested:

    1) Enoch, who may not have seen death, was taken away by God and "was not" (Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5). To where he was taken is not stated in scripture, but Heb 11:13 suggests he died along with all those listed in Heb 11:1-12. In Enoch's case, therefore, his being translated so that he would "not see death" (Heb 11:5) carries a similar meaning to John 8:51. Genesis 5:24 just says literally "and he [was] not; for God took him." What does "translated" then mean in Heb 11:5? Its greek definition ("metatithemi") just means "transferred" or "transported." For sure, it cannot mean given a glorified resurrected body, for Hebrews 11:39-40 also says: "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." So, Enoch has not been made perfect, and he may have died if Heb 11:13 correctly includes Enoch.


    2) Elijah who "went up to heaven in a whirlwind" (2 Kings 2:11). The hebrew word for Heaven ("Shamayim") can simply mean sky. The preposition "to" does not exist in the original Hebrew. It's only implied and is rendered by translators as either "to" or "into." If it was "into," then it may only refer to a temporary experience like the man Paul said he knew who was caught up to the third heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4). Paul was, of course, talking about himself.

    Given John 3:13, it is likely that this is the heavens Elijah was taken up to and speaks more of him being lifted up to the sky and translated (to either Abraham's bosom or the outer courts realm and not into the Heavenly Holy of Holies since the atonement was not yet performed for Elijah). Or, lastly, this is the only scripturally cited exception to Jesus' John 3:13 statement. I personally feel strong holding on to Christ's interpretation of "no one."
     
  20. Psalm6

    Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ. Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

    Where in the Old Testament does is say Jesus would return a second time. The Jews never had that concept. So please show us from scripture were in the Old Testament the prophet distinguish between a first coming and a second come. Please show us. And were in the New Testament does it say Jesus (would not return in the same spiritial nature as he appeared in the Old Testament)?

    The Jews never had a literal physical concept of the return of Christ either. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see his return in the very same spiritual nature as he appeared in the Old Testament. (Matthew 26:64) So with all this in mind please show us your verses of scripture that states Jesus is a lie.
     
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