Preaching for Dollars

[Hazelelponi]

People are so gullible about wolves in The Church:

They are.. well it's like Popoff, disgraced in the late 80's rebranded himself to a degree and doing it again by the late 90's, at last IRS documents in 2006 his ministry made 35 million that year..after that he merged his ministry with a regular church so he didn't have to report earnings. I read somewhere that he listed his personal income during a purchase as 100 thousand a month, but I don't know the truth of that.

His target audience is poor African Americans.. so sad that he's getting so rich off the poorest.

 

[RaymondG]

“Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success or seed faith)[A]is a religious belief among some Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth. Prosperity theology views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver security and prosperity.”

Quite different from your above description. Dishonesty is also unbiblical.

If you have no personal experience or revelations on this matter, there is nothing to talk about. Your knowledge seems to be based off of internet sites and other peoples opinions. If you do not care to share you personal experience and beliefs, I have to move on. WE are judge by our own thoughts and beliefs, not by what we found on google.

 

[Mountainmike]

Whatever they are preaching is not the gospel - if they were they would have read Mark 10:25

And as for "selling" Gods word which was given to them for free, it is the ultimate breach of copyright commons!

All the church fathers would have been hostile to them - take:

The property of the wealthy holds them in chains . . . which shackle their courage and choke their faith and hamper their judgment and throttle their souls. They think of themselves as owners, whereas it is they rather who are owned: enslaved as they are to their own property, they are not the masters of their money but its slaves.
Cyprian

The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry man; the coat hanging in your closet belongs to the man who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the man who has no shoes; the money which you put into the bank belongs to the poor. You do wrong to everyone you could help but fail to help.
Basil of Caesarea

Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours but theirs.
John Chrysostom

Is it a sin to preach in order to become super rich? One televangelist is worth about 760 million dollars. He has a large 18,000 sq ft mansion, square miles of land, a private airport and jet planes. Preachers have amassed fortunes encouraging poor people to contribute all they could. Is this not feeding the hungry, clothing the naked or visiting the sick and imprisoned Christians (Matthew 25:31-46)?

15 richest preachers list:
https://www.etinside.com/?p=539

 

[dqhall]

They are.. well it's like Popoff, disgraced in the late 80's rebranded himself to a degree and doing it again by the late 90's, at last IRS documents in 2006 his ministry made 35 million that year..after that he merged his ministry with a regular church so he didn't have to report earnings. I read somewhere that he listed his personal income during a purchase as 100 thousand a month, but I don't know the truth of that.

His target audience is poor African Americans.. so sad that he's getting so rich off the poorest.

I remember Popoff was a self-proclaimed prophet. His people collected facts about members of the audience before the show began. Popoff had someone backstage broadcasting the information about the unique appearance and location of a person to him through a hidden earpiece microphone. The broadcaster then provided facts about the person. Popoff was able to tell the audience personal information about a person he had never met. Popoff was a deceiver instead of a miracle worker.

There are also righteous people who are preaching the Gospel who may receive support from the people the serve. From what I have read, Paul may have received traveling expenses from his churches. I would presume some invited him to receive free lodging, although sometimes he was paying his way by doing physical labor for wages.

There were people providing for Jesus and his disciples from their own savings as members of the group could not work their regular jobs and do missionary activity at the same time.

Luke 8:1 It happened soon afterwards, that he went about through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the Kingdom of God. With him were the twelve, 2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out; 3 and Joanna, the wife of Chuzas, Herod's steward; Susanna; and many others; who served them from their possessions.

In Acts 11:29 the church in Antioch took up a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem where there was a famine. They sent the funds by way of Paul and Barnabas. One may receive blessings from giving to the right ministry. God remembered Cornelius had given part of his income to the poor. God sent Peter to preach to him. Cornelius was among the first of the Gentiles to hear the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:31). People actively seek the type of help the Holy Spirit is capable of giving.

On the other hand, Judas stole money designated as alms for the poor and had to commit suicide.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I remember Popoff was a self-proclaimed prophet. His people collected facts about members of the audience before the show began. Popoff had someone backstage broadcasting the information about the unique appearance and location of a person to him through a hidden earpiece microphone. The broadcaster then provided facts about the person. Popoff was able to tell the audience personal information about a person he had never met. Popoff was a deceiver instead of a miracle worker.

There are also righteous people who are preaching the Gospel who may receive support from the people the serve. From what I have read, Paul may have received traveling expenses from his churches. I would presume some invited him to receive free lodging, although sometimes he was paying his way by doing physical labor for wages.

There were people providing for Jesus and his disciples from their own savings as members of the group could not work their regular jobs and do missionary activity at the same time.

Luke 8:1 It happened soon afterwards, that he went about through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the Kingdom of God. With him were the twelve, 2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out; 3 and Joanna, the wife of Chuzas, Herod's steward; Susanna; and many others; who served them from their possessions.

In Acts 11:29 the church in Antioch took up a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem where there was a famine. They sent the funds by way of Paul and Barnabas. One may receive blessings from giving to the right ministry. God remembered Cornelius had given part of his income to the poor. God sent Peter to preach to him. Cornelius was among the first of the Gentiles to hear the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:31). People actively seek the type of help the Holy Spirit is capable of giving.

On the other hand, Judas stole money designated as alms for the poor and had to commit suicide.

We are talking about those who deceive, not normal pastors..

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/preaching-for-dollars.8076015/page-2#post-73022135

^^^ you missed the above post of mine..

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

1 Corinthians 9:1-14

the basic needs of a pastor(adequate food, clothing, and shelter) should be provided for by the willful giving of his flock. the only reason Paul didn't take advantage of the rights he lays out here is because he had critics who were trying to accuse him of being a phony.

for pastors with luxury vehicles, private aircrafts, and mansions, it signifies that the money of the flock is being used for personal gain rather than for the betterment of the Body of Christ.

 

[Halbhh]

If they are chasing a lot of people away, how come there churches are the biggest and largest? how come people gift them enough money to live in mansions? And what would that say about us to be embarrass when we see a christian living in a mansion? Dont we too look for mansions......in the sky?

Perhaps you've already had too many responses, but mine is definitely from a friendly person that usually finds your comments good to read. I'm less worried about how little or much funds a person has for a day past what is needed to eat (and we know that years and years are but a day) than that they know this and take it to heart --


19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."


See, Warren Buffet's money is meaning less and less every day for him -- by now it perhaps means almost nothing at all!, but is so much less even than just one good day with a loved one.... -- but it can mean something good for someone else in need (and Buffet seems to know this well enough to aim that almost all of it will serve needs).

 

[dqhall]

We are talking about those who deceive, not normal pastors..

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/preaching-for-dollars.8076015/page-2#post-73022135

^^^ you missed the above post of mine..

I saw your post. I was responding to someone complaining about Popoff.

You and others reminded me of those who chose to do God's work instead of pursue more lucrative careers or turn their sermons into fraudulent claims about providing wealth, healing and eternal life to those who donated to them. I have met pastors who taught from the Gospels and worked jobs to support themselves as well. There are congregations who will provide financial support to their ministers instead of make them seek other work. They can not expect the public school systems to teach their children Christianity. Some churches are yet preaching the Gospel.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I saw your post. I was responding to someone complaining about Popoff.

You and others reminded me of those who chose to do God's work instead of pursue more lucrative careers or turn their sermons into fraudulent claims about providing wealth, healing and eternal life to those who donated to them. I have met pastors who taught from the Gospels and worked jobs to support themselves as well. There are congregations who will provide financial support to their ministers instead of make them seek other work. They can not expect the public school systems to teach their children Christianity. Some churches are yet preaching the Gospel.

It was me complaining about Popoff..lol.. I was replying to someone speaking about the deceivers..

 

[Phil 1:21]

To recap.

I made the following statement:

Show me the biblical support for the prosperity gospel.

To which you replied:

I will, after you help me understand what is the prosperity gospel....as it is a made up term. You can give one example of a statement of the prosperity gospel and how it is biblically wrong.

So I did what you asked. I helped you understand what the prosperity gospel is by posting a very detailed description of it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology


Your turn.

To which you disregarded the description and countered with a straw man.

Which part do you feel is unbiblical? God can give you health? God can give you wealth? Is there something they say God will do that you feel He can't?

So I pointed out your straw man by copying and pasting the description from the link I originally provided you.

“Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success or seed faith)[A]is a religious belief among some Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth. Prosperity theology views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver security and prosperity.”


Quite different from your above description. Dishonesty is also unbiblical.

Apparently knowing your position is indefensible from a scriptural standpoint, you responded by moving the goalposts from me providing a definition of prosperity theology to demanding I first participate in it. By that "logic" (quotes intentional) no one can discuss Exodus 20:13 unless they first go out and murder someone.

If you have no personal experience or revelations on this matter, there is nothing to talk about. Your knowledge seems to be based off of internet sites and other peoples opinions. If you do not care to share you personal experience and beliefs, I have to move on. WE are judge by our own thoughts and beliefs, not by what we found on google.

I would move on too if I were you. You've dug your hole deep enough already.

 

[amariselle]

Sin can only be judged in your own life by your motives.
It's not accurate to judge the sin of others.
It's fun, but not accurate.

Is it "not accurate" to be discerning and "mark and avoid" those who teach contrary to the doctrine we've (hopefully) been taught in the word of God?

Romans 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Was Paul "not accurate" to write such words, inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Is this inspired warning from Paul also inaccurate?:

Acts 20:
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Or what about when Paul "withstood" Peter "to his face"? (Galatians 2:11-14)

Or all the times Paul "named names" in order that believers would be aware of exactly who was teaching falsely and deceiving the brethren?

We do not speak to a person's eternal destination or pass that kind of judgment, but we are called to be discerning and to warn one another of error, and to correct one another as well.

 

[RaymondG]

We are talking about those who deceive, not normal pastors..

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/preaching-for-dollars.8076015/page-2#post-73022135

^^^ you missed the above post of mine..

The OP is asking us to make a judgement base solely on the finances and material possession of someone preaching.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The OP is asking us to make a judgement base solely on the finances and material possession of someone preaching.

Those who deceive and those who preach the Gospel are divided by none other than money.

As the Word says, man cant serve both God and money..

 

[Phil 1:21]

The OP is asking us to make a judgement base solely on the finances and material possession of someone preaching.

Actually, no. The OP is asking us to make a judgement based on their motivation.

Is it a sin to preach in order to become super rich?

 

[RaymondG]

Those who deceive and those who preach the Gospel are divided by none other than money.

As the Word says, man cant serve both God and money..

I feel that those who serve money are the ones who uses money to judge the message of others. As soon as we see or believe that one has a lot of it...many things are assumed. Since I do not serve money, I dont judge others based on it. I believe that the rich has the same propensity to preach a false message, as the poor........Both using there finances, or lack there of, to give them more credit and justify their message. The only ones fooled are the one who use money to judge.

I say lets talk about the message, and not how much money and houses and cars the messenger has.....I dont care about that.....not sure why anyone who doesnt serve money, and doesnt care for physical possessions, would.....

 

[Hazelelponi]

I feel that those who serve money are the ones who uses money to judge the message of others.

You can feel that all day long but these peoples "message" speaks volumes as to whom they are serving.

 

[RaymondG]

Actually, no. The OP is asking us to make a judgement based on their motivation.

And how can I judge there motive when i dont know there heart or what they have and how they get it? Oh the OP did give us more info, which you conveniently left out, to sway our opinion.....to make us think we know, when we dont.;

One televangelist is worth about 760 million dollars. He has a large 18,000 sq ft mansion, square miles of land, a private airport and jet planes. Preachers have amassed fortunes encouraging poor people to contribute all they could.

Ok? this has nothing to do with their message....this messages is to make me view the big money and possessions and use it to judge. Yet I dont serve money and cant be swayed by it being thrown in my face...... Is this wrong? Should I see 760 million and my heart and mind react to it? Nay, I am the same before the millions and after seeing it. I need to see the message....keep the numbers to yourself.

15 richest preachers list:

And what is this? If not another ploy to get those, who serve riches and money, to judge and react towards it? You think only those who have a lot of money can serve it....but i say nay.....it is more likely for those who dont have it to serve it....to think about it......to care how much they and others have....

 

[RaymondG]

You can feel that all day long but these peoples "message" speaks volumes as to whom they are serving.

Yes, and this is true for the rich and poor preacher alike. There are many the have a big following because of their seeming meekness and lack of need for money and possessions. People hang on their every word and worship them.....come to tears when they get close and touch them..... And these are leading people astray as well. Yet Christians seem to only be concerned about the big money..... why is that?

But we may be getting closer to the same page. Are you able to not care about the money and the cars and houses and focus just on the word and the doctrine?

Can you give me one thing they preach and why you feel it is not biblical?

 

[Phil 1:21]

And how can I judge there motive when i dont know there heart or what they have and how they get it?

Seeing as it didn't mention any specific names, it was a hypothetical question.

Oh the OP did give us more info, which you conveniently left out, to sway our opinion.....to make us think we know, when we dont.;

I left it out because it didn't change what the OP asked in the very first sentence.

But I find it interesting that you claim to lack discernment about the motivation of a televangelist who “has a large 18,000 sq ft mansion, square miles of land, a private airport and jet planes” and has “amassed fortunes encouraging poor people to contribute all they could” (from the OP). Yet in the same post, when it comes to me simply quoting the OP, you claim to know of dishonest intentions on my part and judge me accordingly. I’m undecided if your post is an example of deliberately bearing false witness, or just blindness to an enormous lack of discernment.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt and lean toward the latter.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Are you able to not care about the money and the cars and houses and focus just on the word and the doctrine?

Can you give me one thing they preach and why you feel it is not biblical?

See post #50.