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Featured preachers are scared to say SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by The Sun, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They are right in saying salvation cannot be lost. But they are wrong in claiming that someone still alive on Earth can already be saved. Earthly life is the road to salvation. As long as we remain on that road, we will reach our destination - Heaven, or salvation. But every person is completely free to wander off the road at any point in their life, and reject any commitment to God they may have made earlier in their life, thereby forfeiting salvation. It's pretty odd when their "saved" pastor, who has led so many people to "salvation", leaves his wife and runs off with his secretary, and the members of his church say "he was never really saved". Right! And neither are they, until the moment of death.
     
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  2. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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  3. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1 John 5

    11 And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
     
  4. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    LOL!

    Prove it. I've shown you the clear scripture, now you show me where the bible says it means what you say? Any lack of an answer will prove you wrong.

    Must be a chore trying to change such a simple message as...Don't live like this or you will be going to Hell....period.

    Oh, easily falsified because you say so? You do realize you are just one person and there are many who do just as I claim? Seems most would have been able to put that together before making what turns out to be a rather silly claim.

    I know you had a 3rd point but I've seen enough to guess it was about as non point as the first two.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  5. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    In contrast to your salvation-by-works soteriology, it says:

    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

    "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

    Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10:1-6,9-13

    "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
     
  6. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's all I need to quote from your post as you showed your error right away.

    Do you understand the term "believes" in Jesus to mean we really don't have to do as he says to do, but just say we believe? IOW you think in terms of, "We believe ya' Jesus but when it comes to things like doing the following, well, I'm not sure I believe you that much?

    John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Either you believe him or you do not, and if you don't think we need to do what he says we MUST do in order to get to heaven, I would say, you clearly don't believe him. So please explain how you can "believe him" and not do what he tells you, you must do, because it makes no sense at all to me you can do one without the other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    You seem to miss the point of John 5:24. One could say, you obviously don't believe it. Jesus says when a person comes to faith he is free from condemnation as if he had already passed from death to life. You on the other hand apparently don't believe that a person can have eternal life right now, but that he must qualify for it by working for it and then in the end God with weight his works in the balance as to whether he earned the right to have eternal life, which is salvation-by-works.

    Not to mention (I guess I am mentioning) the other verses which disprove your premise.

    But as for John 5:28 he's talking about the second resurrection and the great white throne judgement of which those who are believers in Christ are not subject to in according with the promise of John 5:24 and Rom 8:1
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry, you aren't answering any of my questions about the proof I asked for nor did you even bother quoting the one in my last post because you never intended to answer that one either.

    This is not a debate, it a one sided, "I tell you what is fact but am not going to prove it or answer to any questioning on what I say". So please be fair, and go back before we get too far down the road and find my last few posts and answer the questions. It's fine if you choose not to do so but in all fairness, we'll have stop the debate and I can only assume you lose it because you were unwilling to respond to touchy, but very fair questions. I'll get into why that means to me you lose if you need me too, but for now I'll assume you understand why.

    Looking forward to more in a fair debate.
     
  9. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Already answered your questions in the last two posts. (Scroll up). But I've notice this technique some have used of simply falsely denying that their questions were answered. Sure you can deny it, but they're right up there for everyone to see. How do you think they would view you in light of your refusal to acknowledge what I wrote? I assume you deny it simply because the scriptures I pointed out are simply something you can't handle. I suggest you handle them if you want to continue this discussion.
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    you quoted something that wasn't the question meaning your comment was not about the question at all, but what you quoted, yet now you say the answer was in there. You aren't making good sense.

    Please simple quote the question, then post the answer following that question, otherwise I have no idea where your answer is among any given reply. Can you please do that now?

    If you do not, I'll be accusing you of the technique of just saying, "it's in there somewhere, but I'm just making it confusing and impossible to find because it's really not in there at all".

    If I can't see the clear answer, then you have clearly not answered.
     
  11. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here ya' go. So things don't get lost in the confusion, here are the two questions and I made sure everything was followed by a question mark so if you really want to answer them clearly, you can easily quote an answer as I requested, or not...up to you. Please give a straight yes or no, then say whatever you like as long as it pertains to the question. We can't move on without straight answers.

    Thanks.

     
  12. MDC

    MDC Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure to the self righteous “law keepers” this sounds honorable. But biblically speaking, this message that salvation can be lost is nothing more than a denial of Gods promise according to the gospel. Titus 1:1-2. Preachers who teach such a doctrine do not believe the gospel
     
  13. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Actually it started off with you quoting me saying, "Firstly 1Cor 6:9-10 is not talking about how to be saved, but rather describing the characteristic behavior of those who aren't saved. To say otherwise is basically to make salvation contingent upon one's performance, which is salvation-by-works, which you pretend not to advocate." You failed to noticed I also said in the same post:

    The reason why you won't find anyone born of God (and thus "saved") who live in sin is due not to fear of condemnation, but rather because of the nature of regeneration such that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

    So I already proved by point before you even asked. Then in response to your view of 1Cor 6:9-10 speaking of salvation being contingent upon one's performance (which is salvation-by-works) I showed you other scriptures, which again your ignored.

    Seems no matter what scriptures I show you, you just ignore. So here again are the scriptures I showed you to disprove your salvation-by-works soteriology:

    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

    "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

    Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
    Rom 10:1-6,9-13

    "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

    So there, I've proved from scripture that salvation is not by works and 1Cor 6:9,10 is not talking about losing salvation.

    Now you prove that it's talking losing salvation.

    As for "doing things" to be saved, you're thinking of salvation by works, which I've already shown is unscriptural.

    What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
     
  14. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is being obedient to God, or doing what he says we must do "self righteous"?

    Must we disobey God in order to be righteous? That is exactly what you are telling us anyway.

    Hope you can actually answer those questions with a straight answer.
     
  15. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did you or did you not answer the two questions I went out of my way to make very clear?

    If so, you did not do the very simple quote them first, so we're in the same boat as before, and I have no idea where those answers are. Do that or I'll just assume you evaded them and could not answer. I won't ask again.

    A yes or no and comment should be so easy to do.
     
  16. MDC

    MDC Well-Known Member

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    To the pretentious and self righteous I’m sure that’s all that was got from that. It is the disobedient who hold to such a doctrine as losing salvation in Christ
     
  17. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    God respects choices. We choose to follow Jesus or not. Can we choose not to follow Jesus? Yes We choose to love God ... or not love God. True love can only exist if one has choice. One can not make/force one love another. We know this ... God knows this. He does not force His love on us ever. Not in the beginning, not in the present, nor in the future.

    God creates all his intelligent beings with freewill.

    ok, so if one is saved what is the ultimate benefit of it? They will receive eternal life and live with the Lord.

    ok .... so what about Lucifer and the 1/3 who were already with God in heaven?

    Hmmmmm ... they had choice! In fact sin (transgression of Gods law) first started in heaven.

    So, satan and the 1/3 of the angels made their choice, we here on earth make our choice .... these are final choices for eternity.

    Once the Lord completes His plan in it's entirety .... will we still have choices? YES! but the choices will all be perfect and in harmony with Gods will. There won't be such a thing as a bad choice in heaven ever again.

    That's the point .... not my will but Thy will.

    Lucifer and the 1/3 wanted their will and not Gods.

    And so it is with earthlings .... our own will or Gods will.

    Luke 22

    saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

    Matthew 6

    Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

    Micah 6:8

    8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly (do what is right - keep His commandments) and to love mercy (have compassion) and to walk humbly with your God.

    Colossians 2:6 - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him

    John 14:14
    13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

    15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

    Interesting .... He immediately tells us what to ask Him for.

    Help me Jesus, to walk humbly in all your ways. Help me to, to love mercy. I do love you Lord and I know you love me. Help me keep your commandments. In Jesus name. Amen.
     
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then you refuse to answer the questions too? You'll fit right in here. :)

    And they were such simple yes or no questions too, what a shame they won't be touched.
     
  19. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    The only thing you mention about the subject of "salvation" is
    Not sure what your point is concerning the rest of that. As for Satan and his angels, the gospel was not offered to them. So I don't see their relevance.
     
  20. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Sacred? No.. because its not a truth. People would not be debating over 2 thouands years later if "you can lose your salvation" was in the word. "once saved always saved" "you can lose your salvation".

    What do you think people told each other after Jesus went up? No one had the NT only the Torah. How many only heard ..He said.. if you believe in the one that sent Him .. believe in Him you have ever lasting life period.

    Man we really need to understand.. to believe in Jesus is not like believing in Santa Claws. JESUS IS REAL! When HE finds someone something NEW is created. Old is passed off and ALL things become new. And He cant lie. He said. what He started HE WILL not maybe.. not might but WILL finish it. So.... as the wise say.. can someone just walk way.. say I am done with Christ.. I dont believe any more... Yes they can. And the wise speak truth and say.. that person is walking a dangerous path. God does not judge man by FLESH but heart

    So many things in this life.. can really scare us. Ever have your kid die you lose your job.. you spouse leaves.. WHERE was this GOD in all this? and that can make us turn away.. but we NEVER seen the truth. See JESUS have you? Seen heaven.. seen the spirit realm? Known Satan and all that darkness? So.. all you know is what some man told you.. and then what some man told you that WORD what that TRUTH really is and you think GOD is going to hold you accountable to what man told you about HIS word?

    You think Catholics are lost? You think Mormons are lost? You think JW are lost? You think WOF are lost? In each ANY group ...some ONLY know what some man told them. They dont know the truth. You can be a really good Christian but a bad "insert group". Be that Baptist to Wof to you name it.

    Jesus didnt go running around after He rose.. He only stayed with the 12 for 40 days.. never in the streets saying "TURN OR BURN".. was not HE the only one in? So everyone that NEVER heard of Him AFTER He rose would be lost no? Yet.. He did nothing for 40 days and nor did the 12. Hmm why? MAN says its easy to be lost.. Man says.. MOST will be lost.. and man loves to quote a verse out of context.

    Jesus is the only way in.. sin will not enter heaven. He said..if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sins remains. Most are blind.. you really think you KNOW the REAL truth? Its simple.. Jesus came in the flesh.. died for the worlds sins. Was buried.. rose the 3rd day is the only way to the Father. Then HE comes in.. and HE helps in every way.
     
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