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Featured preachers are scared to say SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by The Sun, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. JAM2b

    JAM2b Newbie

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    The repentance is partly so to show that there was an act of salvation taking place, and to keep us from continuing to ruin our lives and others. Even though we are forgiven, that doesn't mean God is ok with repeat sinfulness. He still wants us to live rightly. The salvation doesn't go away, but there can be earthly consequences for us, and God does not want that either. He is a compassionate and loving God and Father, who only wants good for us.

    The reason we are motivated to repent is out of love and gratefulness to the Father and Jesus Christ, and to avoid those earthly consequences. It is the result of healing and a loss of fear that we experience when we are able to perceive his perfect love and mercy for us when we realize we have been saved by grace through faith.

    If someone is repenting so that they won't lose their salvation, then where is the honesty in that? Where's the relationship? Is that not manipulative?
     
  2. Radagast

    Radagast is a Trinitarian Christian

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    Just to be picky, in the gospels, I find hadēs mentioned 4 times, and geenna 11 times.
     
  3. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    Well, I just popped the terms into the search function on Oremus, but I think my basic point stands.
     
  4. Radagast

    Radagast is a Trinitarian Christian

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    Of course there is; but there's very little debate. In the US, the debate comes mainly from Baptists being so strongly divided on the issue.

    In Australia, Calvinists can be found particularly among:
    • Presbyterians (who are much like the American PCA)
    • Anglicans in Sydney (who don't talk about Calvinism all that much because they have other important differences with their fellow-Anglicans)
    • A handful of Baptists (who don't talk about Calvinism all that much because they have other important differences with their fellow-Baptists)
     
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  5. Radagast

    Radagast is a Trinitarian Christian

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    It does indeed (I said I was being picky).

    However, it's also worth noting that there are 15 mentions of hadēs/geenna from Jesus, and only one from Paul.
     
  6. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    That's about where I would have expected to find pockets of those ideas, but it's still very easy to be an active, engaged, I'll-talk-to-anyone-who-wants-to-talk-about-Jesus Christian in Australia (outside Sydney?) and never have a discussion on this topic.

    I often feel under-equipped for these discussions on CF because I've just never had to address the question in real life. I only waded in this time because when people start opining about what preachers think and feel, there I do feel I might have some insight. ;)
     
  7. JAM2b

    JAM2b Newbie

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    As to the title of the topic, there might be some who are afraid if their livelihood depends on their income from the church and the congregation doesn't believe it.

    However, my experience has been that preachers tend to believe what they preach. The ones who don't say what you believe choose to not say it because they don't believe it is true. I've seen preachers take stands and say things that aren't popular with at least some members of their congregation, if not the whole congregation a lot. Their messages are based on their belief and understanding of Scripture.

    Once there was a pastor who had a message that he knew was going to upset a large number of people there, and he said so. He also said he wasn't going to deliver it because he didn't think they were ready for it and he didn't want to deal with the aftermath. He began to use a basic, backup sermon. The room became angry with him and some people got up and started walking out. So he called them back to their seat and went with the original message he believed he was supposed to give. He was right. The congregation became divided. Half were glad he said it and half were hurt and angry. There was debate, angry words and crying, right there in sanctuary. It was one of the longest church services held there. From the pulpit he said, "See, I told you." We lost members that day, but most stayed and the ones who remained either learned something or were strengthened.
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else.

    Those who fall away were never saved,
     
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  9. JAM2b

    JAM2b Newbie

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    Ain't that the truth! I'm a recovering Baptist!

    The funny thing is that most Baptist churches I have been part of teach OSAS but act like it is all works based and are actually very legalistic. There was one Baptist church that wasn't that way, and they eventually left the convention and became Non-denominational.

    Here's a joke:
    Do you know what Non-denominational means?

    It's Baptists who aren't afraid to sit on the first row.
     
  10. Radagast

    Radagast is a Trinitarian Christian

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    Indeed. Even the strongest Calvinists don't generally talk about Calvinism first. It's a debate that comes up, primarily on the conservative side of the theological spectrum, amongst people who already agree on a great deal.

    Among US Baptists of the 1800s, the Calvinism debate was closely tied to the question of whether there should be missionaries (outside of 1800s US Baptists, that's always been an obvious "yes").

    And of course, the Calvinism debate was big in Europe in the 1600s, as part of a process of sorting out Reformed theology. It seems to me that Anglicanism as a whole sits on the fence here -- the 39 articles can (I believe) be read in a Calvinist sense, but they can also be read in a Catholic one.
     
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  11. Radagast

    Radagast is a Trinitarian Christian

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    It's not really "funny." There's been a growth in Calvinism in Baptist seminaries in the US, which leads to Calvinist teaching, but Calvinism probably hasn't made a huge impact on the average church-member yet.
     
  12. JAM2b

    JAM2b Newbie

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    I meant funny as in ironic, not humorous
     
  13. StillGods

    StillGods Well-Known Member

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    calvinism is weird
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In what way?
     
  15. JAM2b

    JAM2b Newbie

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    I've seen the spiritual damage that Calvinism can cause to a person. A man's father believes in Calvinism and this man struggles with anxiety disorder and has difficulty perceiving the Holy Spirit and feeling peace. He's a really good guy (in human terms) and honestly believes. But his father has told him that he can't be saved because he isn't chosen, evidenced by his anxiety and spotty perception. This guy is truly distressed, believing God doesn't love him, doesn't want him, he can't be saved, and has no hope at all because his father thinks that. He questions why he was even born.

    Quite frankly, it makes me very angry. How dare his father do such a thing? I can think of no worse damage.
     
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  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think any Calvinist I've ever met thinks this way.
     
  17. JAM2b

    JAM2b Newbie

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    Maybe his father is confused. I don't know, but I do know that this guy is convinced that his father is right about him.
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus said all the Father gave to him will come to him and none but Judas would be lost. So if he is among the elect, nothing will prevent his salvation.
     
  19. StillGods

    StillGods Well-Known Member

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    yep.
    my experience as well of Calvinist believers when I was at a Calvinist church, there was no assurance of salvation, little peace. it was quite fascinating how that was an outcome of calvinist teaching that they dont even realise they're doing to themselves.
     
  20. StillGods

    StillGods Well-Known Member

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    so many ways
     
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