Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[yashualover]

I just purchased this word study, it's connected with E-Sword. I'm not sure how accurate it is.

G1492
εἴδω
eídō. To see. This verb is obsolete in the pres. act. for which horáō (G3708), to see with perception, is used. The tenses derived from the meaning of eídō form two families, one of which has exclusively the meaning of to see, the other that of to know.
(I) To see, 2d aor. eídon, opt. ídoimi, subjunctive ídō, inf. ideín, part. idṓn; for the imper. idé (Rom_11:22; Gal_5:2), later form íde (Mat_25:20; Mar_3:34; Joh_1:29). These forms are all used as the aor. of horáō or eídō in the sense of "I saw," trans., implying not the mere act of seeing but the actual perception of some object, and thus differing from blépō (G991), to see.
(A) Followed by the acc. of person or thing (Mat_2:2; Mat_5:1; Mat_21:19; Mar_9:9; Mar_11:13, Mar_11:20; Joh_1:48; Joh_4:48; Act_8:39; Heb_3:9; Rev_1:2; Sept.: Gen_9:23). Followed by the acc. with part. (Mat_3:7; Mat_8:14; Mat_24:15; Mar_6:33; Luk_5:2). Also with the part. ónta, being, implied, the pres. part. of eimí (G1510), to be (Mat_25:38-39). With part. of the same verb by way of emphasis, idṓn eídon (Act_7:34 quoted from Exo_3:7). Followed by hóti (G3754), that, with the indic. (Mar_9:25; Joh_6:22; Rev_12:13). Used in an absolute sense in Mat_9:8; Luk_2:17; Act_3:12. Hoi idóntes means the spectators in Mar_5:16; Luk_8:36. Before an indirect question as in Mat_27:49; Mar_5:14; Gal_6:11. Also in various modified senses such as: (1) To behold, look upon, contemplate (Mat_9:36; Mat_28:6; Mar_8:33; Luk_24:39; Joh_20:27; Sept.: Num_12:8). (2) To see in order to know, to look at or into, examine (Mar_5:14; Mar_6:38; Mar_12:15; Luk_8:35; Luk_14:18; Joh_1:39, Joh_1:46). (3) To see face to face, to see and talk with, to visit, i.e., to have personal acquaintance and relationship with (Luk_8:20; Luk_9:9; Joh_12:21; Act_16:40; Rom_1:11; 1Co_16:7; Gal_1:19; Php_1:27; Php_2:28). Also of a city, such as Rome (Act_19:21). (4) To wait to see, watch, observe (Mat_26:58; Mat_27:49; Mar_15:36). (5) To see take place, witness, to live to see (Mat_13:17; Mat_24:33; Mar_2:12). Also "to see one's day" (a.t.) means to witness the events of his life and times as in Luk_17:22; Joh_8:56.
(B) Metaphorically spoken of the mind meaning to perceive by the senses, to be aware of, to remark (Mat_9:2, Mat_9:4; Luk_17:15; Joh_7:52; Rom_11:22). Followed by hóti (G3754), that (Mat_2:16; Mat_27:24; Mar_12:34; Act_12:3; Act_16:19; Gal_2:7, Gal_2:14; Sept.: Jos_8:14; Job_32:5; Ecc_2:12-13; Isa_6:9).
(C) To see, i.e., to experience either good (meaning to enjoy) or evil (meaning to suffer), followed by the acc. referring to death in Luk_2:26; Heb_11:5. Sept.: Psa_89:48, óptomai, same as optánomai (G3700), corruption (Act_2:27, Act_2:31; Act_13:35; Sept.: Psa_16:10); pénthos (G3997), grief, mourning (Rev_18:7). In 1Pe_3:10, "see good days"; Sept.: Psa_34:12. In Joh_3:3, to see and enjoy the privileges of the divine kingdom (cf. Sept.: Psa_27:13; Ecc_6:6).

 

[yashualover]

(II) To know, in the 2d perf. oída, subjunctive eidṓ, in the inf. eidénai, in the part. eidṓs, in the pluperf. ḗdein, in the fut. eidḗsō (Heb_8:11). The pl. forms oídamen (Joh_9:20), oídate (1Co_9:13), and oídasi (Luk_11:44) belong to the later Gr. instead of the forms íste (Heb_12:17) and ísasi (Act_26:4). Oída strictly means to have seen, perceived, apprehended; hence it takes the pres. meaning of to know, and the pluperf. becomes an imperf.

It goes on, there is about 30% more.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
In Joh_3:3, to see and enjoy the privileges of the divine kingdom ​

Thank you, "Yashualover"!

"See", "enter", "participate", "experience", "see-and-enjoy"...

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
We have that blessed assurance that there in no one that can snatch us from the Fathers hand. We also have the blessed assurance that Jesus will in NO WAY loose any that the Father has given Him.. We also have the blessed assurance that tells us that IF we have the Son of God then we have eternal life..This is our hope and our calling. Beware of false teaching that tells us that our Mighty God cannot keep us. And that it is up to men to keep what has been freely given to us through no work of our own but only the Work of Christ in His life and death. Bringing fear upon the many. Once we learn the Perfect Love of God it will cast out all fear. For our God is mighty and there is none compared to Him who is faithful to keep all His promises..​

Hi, "MamaZ". There are many things occuring in my mind just now; first, I could explain that "snatch" ("harpazo") means force; second, that "not-lose-those-given", implies belief (equating "given" with "believing"; see Jn17:6 --- they belonged/believed GOD, and THROUGH that were given to Jesus).

Third, I could show you that 2Jn1:7-9 warns against "deceivers", saying "those who go too far and do not abide in Christ's teachings, have not God; those who abide, have the Father and the Son."

Fourth, I could show you 2Tim1:14-16, where God DOES guard us, but we equally guard what has been gifted TO us.

Fifth, I could show you Jude:24 ("God is able to keep us"...) --- and how that exists in the same context as "build YOURSELVES in faith" (20), "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God" (21).


But all these things have been discussed before. I'm not sure you were here to read them, so please tell me what will help you understand that "Responsible Grace", does have profound Scriptural support.

You are correct about "there is not supposed to be fear"; yet, in so many passages (2Pet1:5-10, 1Tim4:16 for instance), diligence is admonished so that we receive eternal life.

There is a world of difference between "concern and diligence", and "fear". Each place "diligence" is admonished, it's a response to DECEIVERS, who always intend to lead us away from Christ.

What would you like to discuss? Or do you not wish to discuss these at all?

 

[MamaZ]

Ben you could show me alot and it will not take away the truth that once we are born again we are born again and sealed. For we look to Christ the Author and perfector of our faith.

 

[MamaZ]

You are trying to make salvation one of works that we do instead of one of a work that Christ did and also trying to tell me that my God is not able to keep what has been entrusted to Him. In doing this you take the word of God to destroy mens faith instead of build it up. Stumbling block indeed..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Ben you could show me alot and it will not take away the truth that once we are born again we are born again and sealed.​

Hi, "MamaZ". Eph1:13 says the seal occurs after belief. If "sealed" and "received" and "gifted" and "poured" (the Holy Spirit) happens BY belief, then why isn't it credible that UNbelief can discard the Spirit? That's what Rom11:21-23 and others say to me...

Quote:
For we look to Christ the Author and perfector of our faith.​

Heb12:2; if we have no responsibility IN "saving-faith" (meaning it's all God's choice), then on what are we judged?

I would love to hear your thoughts on Heb12:7-9, how it's not saying that if we reject His discipline then we are illegitimate and no longer sons. (Also, see 12:15 & 25...)

Quote:
You are trying to make salvation one of works that we do instead of one of a work that Christ did...​

Not at all; it is completely "by grace (Jesus on the Cross)", but also "through faith" (us believing/receiving).

If God sovereignly machinates our faith, then Paul really meant "by grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved".

I perceive that "saving-faith", is conscious choice. Doesn't make it "merit", or "works"; but rather "receiving HIS work"...

Quote:
and also trying to tell me that my God is not able to keep what has been entrusted to Him.​

If "faith" is our choice, then Peter's warning to persevere SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE provided (2:1:5-10), and Paul's warning to be diligent so that we save ourselves (1Tim4:16), and many others, place "abiding" under our control.

Quote:
In doing this you take the word of God to destroy men's faith instead of build it up. Stumbling block indeed..​

How so? Worst case scenario, if I'm wrong --- my words drive people deeper into Scripture, and closer to God (stronger in prayer). No harm, no foul.

BUT --- if saving faith can become deceived to unbelief (which is the only thing Heb3:6-14 & 4:11 can possibly be communicating), then what we discuss here absolutely will increase the number who enter Heaven.

Those are my goals --- to increase brothers & sisters in faith, to promote fellowship and love, and to enlarge the party that begins in the clouds when He returns.

 

[MamaZ]

Well lets look at what Jesus said about unbelief.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So if God is greater than ALL that even means ourselves. For I know in whom I have believed..

 

[MamaZ]

How can a dead man have living faith?

 

[yashualover]

Quoted by Yashualover:
In Joh_3:3, to see and enjoy the privileges of the divine kingdom
​

Thank you, "Yashualover"!

"See", "enter", "participate", "experience", "see-and-enjoy"...

To see and to know what?

To see our depravity, then we will know that we are in need of a Savior.

Man can not make himself born again.

Regeneration preceeds faith.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Hey Ben. Answer me this, so I don't assume anything. Also anyone who doesn't believe in OSAS can confirm this.

When we read passages that state that the Lord will never leave us (christians), you agree, but just assert the opposite, that we can leave Him by relinquishing our faith. Am I correct in identifying your stance?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

To see and to know what?

To see our depravity, then we will know that we are in need of a Savior.

Man can not make himself born again.

Regeneration preceeds faith.

YL - not that I totally disagree with you, but simply stating your position does nothing for your view. To use your own opinions as a support doesn't accomplish anything.

Further, the subject of John 3 is "the kingdom of Heaven", therefore necessitating that what an unregenerate person cannot "see" is the kingdom of heaven, not their depravity.

What we are discussing is whether "see" actually means "know". If it does, it is a support for regeneration prior to justification. If it actually means "physically behold", then it isn't a support. It doesn't HURT us either way, it's just that many Calvinists use this as a support but fail to provide proof that the greek actually says such a thing. That is what I am trying to do...

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Well let's look at what Jesus said about unbelief.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. ​

"You do not believe", what? "You do not believe I'm the MESSIAH". Not saying "you don't believe savingly in Me".

They refused to believe His Messiahship, because they had not believed savingly in Him. Verse 9 says ANYONE ("tis") who enters Jesus finds pasture --- becomes His sheep...

Quote:
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.​

"Snatch", is "harpazo"; meaning "sieze/remove forcibly". It's the same word as "caught-up" (rapture) in 1Thess4:17.

No ONE can FORCE you from My hand. Please read James1:14-16; can lust deceive to spiritual death? Yes.

Quote:
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one." ​

Please read John10:25, and 38; people are fully capable of believing in Jesus just by looking at what He's DONE.

Quote:
How can a dead man have living faith?​

As we just read, people can see Him and believe in Him (well, they could back then). Look now at how that relates to what Jesus said to Thomas:

"You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe. Jn20:29

First, seeing can cause belief; second, unseen faith is better than seen faith.

In Eph2:5-8, Paul writes: "He showed His great love, in that WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive (by grace ....through faith have you been saved)".

To me, this places "through faith", as occurring WHEN we were dead. IE, "dead men can believe". I happen to believe we are totally depraved, incapable of righteousness without Him; yet --- Jesus Himself said "I will call all men to Myself". "Call", is "helkuo-DRAG".

If we are drug forcefully to Jesus-the-door, then can we not decide to ENTER, or to turn AWAY? This is the paradigm I see in Jesus' message.

Please read 1Cor1:18-21; "God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe".

How can there be "belief through foolishness", if "spiritually-dead-men cannot believe"? The message would have to change (from "foolish" to "wisdom") and THEN someone can believe....

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
To see and to know what?​

You quoted it yourself --- "to see and enjoy the privileges of the divine kingdom".

Quote:
To see our depravity, then we will know that we are in need of a Savior.​

No, the context does not support that, nor does the Greek. It's a repetitive narrative, "see" equates to "enter".

"You cannot see/enter the kingdom of God unless you are born-again/born-of-the-Spirit".

Quote":
Man can not make himself born again.​

That is completely, totally,

...RIGHT... ​

Look at what John1:13 says; the "begottenness" is all of God and nothing of men's will or blood or might.

...but it's preceded by verse 12, becoming begotten is by believing/receiving Jesus...

Quote:
Regeneration preceeds faith.​

Where? What verse?

"Regeneration" is a rare word in the NT; it's really only in Titus3:5-6. We are saved by the washing and renewal of regeneration by the Spirit, who was poured on us by Jesus-our-Savior.

Reads to me like "Savior" happened first.
Then "poured-Spirit".
Then "regeneration".

Notice that "poured" ("ekcheo") is the same in Acts10:43-37, meaning "fell-upon/gifted/RECEIVED" --- and in 11:17 it's "AFTER belief".

The Spirit does not regenerate before He's received.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Hey Ben. Answer me this, so I don't assume anything. Also anyone who doesn't believe in OSAS can confirm this.

When we read passages that state that the Lord will never leave us (christians), you agree, but just assert the opposite, that we can leave Him by relinquishing our faith. Am I correct in identifying your stance?​

Yes. And 2Tim2 comes to mind:

2Ti 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Here is a reference to "being born again"; specifically, in Rom6 we are "dead to sin" (united in His crucifixion), and "alive in Christ" (united in His resurrection --- "born from above").

2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
"Reigning", is "saved"; it is as Rom5:17 says: "Those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness shall reign with Him..."

... If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
This links to Matt10:32-33; those whom He denies before God, aren't "saved".

2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
There are very few choices here:
1. We can be FAITHLESSLY SAVED (impossible)
2. We cannot be faithless (not what Paul wrote)
3. If we are faithless (and He DENIES us), then God remains faithful even though we perish.

Tell me if you have another understanding of this.

In Rom11:29 "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (without repentance). "[/color] --- this asserts GOD'S position, but it does not deny the possibility of US repenting from belief.

God will never leave us nor forsake us; He will never cast us out; He will never be unfaithful; but we can be all those things. If we who are saved, now CANNOT be those things, then why aren't we sinless?

 

[MamaZ]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Well let's look at what Jesus said about unbelief.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
​

"You do not believe", what? "You do not believe I'm the MESSIAH". Not saying "you don't believe savingly in Me".

They refused to believe His Messiahship, because they had not believed savingly in Him. Verse 9 says ANYONE ("tis") who enters Jesus finds pasture --- becomes His sheep...

Quote:
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
​

"Snatch", is "harpazo"; meaning "sieze/remove forcibly". It's the same word as "caught-up" (rapture) in 1Thess4:17.

No ONE can FORCE you from My hand. Please read James1:14-16; can lust deceive to spiritual death? Yes.

Quote:
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
​

Please read John10:25, and 38; people are fully capable of believing in Jesus just by looking at what He's DONE.

Quote:
How can a dead man have living faith?
​

As we just read, people can see Him and believe in Him (well, they could back then). Look now at how that relates to what Jesus said to Thomas:

"You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe. Jn20:29

First, seeing can cause belief; second, unseen faith is better than seen faith.

In Eph2:5-8, Paul writes: "He showed His great love, in that WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive (by grace ....through faith have you been saved)".

To me, this places "through faith", as occurring WHEN we were dead. IE, "dead men can believe". I happen to believe we are totally depraved, incapable of righteousness without Him; yet --- Jesus Himself said "I will call all men to Myself". "Call", is "helkuo-DRAG".

If we are drug forcefully to Jesus-the-door, then can we not decide to ENTER, or to turn AWAY? This is the paradigm I see in Jesus' message.

Please read 1Cor1:18-21; "God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe".

How can there be "belief through foolishness", if "spiritually-dead-men cannot believe"? The message would have to change (from "foolish" to "wisdom") and THEN someone can believe....

wow you really like to write your own bible and then truly believe in what you say.. You have decieved yourself and now are set on decieving others.

 

[MamaZ]

"You do not believe", what? "You do not believe I'm the MESSIAH". Not saying "you don't believe savingly in Me".

They refused to believe His Messiahship, because they had not believed savingly in Him. Verse 9 says ANYONE ("tis") who enters Jesus finds pasture --- becomes His sheep...

You have added words to the scripture. For this is not what is written and people who want to bend scripture to fit their own theology are ususally the ones that want to do this instead of just taking God at His word.. They could not even believe who He was so therefore this savingly part is added..For no one could know who He was less the Father revealed it them.

Please read John10:25, and 38; people are fully capable of believing in Jesus just by looking at what He's DONE.

You need to read that again for they still did not believe.

As we just read, people can see Him and believe in Him (well, they could back then). Look now at how that relates to what Jesus said to Thomas:

"You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe. Jn20:29

LOL Jesus said this because He had risen here.. Thomas believed in Jesus already.. He just would not believe He was alive for He knew He had died. Keep scripture in context you will do much better.

In Eph2:5-8, Paul writes: "He showed His great love, in that WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive (by grace ....through faith have you been saved)".

To me, this places "through faith", as occurring WHEN we were dead. IE, "dead men can believe". I happen to believe we are totally depraved, incapable of righteousness without Him; yet --- Jesus Himself said "I will call all men to Myself". "Call", is "helkuo-DRAG".

Dead men can do nothing. So the belief and the Faith is from God.. So that leaves men as they are totally depraved and incapable to even have faith to save themselves. Take a look at Lazarus.. He was dead and in the grave for days.. When Jesus called Lazarus came out. Ressurection power from Christ. Same as the saving faith we have to be saved by grace.. That is why scripture tells us we have died with Christ and been raised with Christ in newness of life.. Ressurection power for our Spirits.

If we are drug forcefully to Jesus-the-door, then can we not decide to ENTER, or to turn AWAY? This is the paradigm I see in Jesus' message.

Well read about Saul. Read about Isaiah.. When God drags us to Christ and We stand in front of The holiness of God do you really believe that you will not bow your knee to Him?

Please read 1Cor1:18-21; "God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe".

How can there be "belief through foolishness", if "spiritually-dead-men cannot believe"? The message would have to change (from "foolish" to "wisdom") and THEN someone can believe....

It is the preaching of the Gospel and the Power of the Holy Spirit that reveals to mens hearts and gives thier hearts ressurection power. For the scriptures are alive and active.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
wow you really like to write your own bible and then truly believe in what you say.. You have decieved yourself and now are set on decieving others.​

Hi, "MamaZ". Which verses am I "deceived" on? What do they really say?

 

[MamaZ]

I have posted on this already..

 

[yashualover]

YL - not that I totally disagree with you, but simply stating your position does nothing for your view. To use your own opinions as a support doesn't accomplish anything.

Further, the subject of John 3 is "the kingdom of Heaven", therefore necessitating that what an unregenerate person cannot "see" is the kingdom of heaven, not their depravity.

What we are discussing is whether "see" actually means "know". If it does, it is a support for regeneration prior to justification. If it actually means "physically behold", then it isn't a support. It doesn't HURT us either way, it's just that many Calvinists use this as a support but fail to provide proof that the greek actually says such a thing. That is what I am trying to do...

I dont have a problem with man knowing so long as you do not say the natural man can know without a supernatural intervention from the Holy Spirit, ie give man a new heart to enable him to know.