Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
I have posted on this already..​

Ah --- my bad. You were posting at the same time I was....

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You have added words to the scripture. For this is not what is written and people who want to bend scripture to fit their own theology are ususally the ones that want to do this instead of just taking God at His word..​

Let's see if I'm "adding something", or if I'm "accurate":
Jews: "If You are the Messiah, tell us plainly."
Jesus: "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah); the works I do in My Father's name bear witness of Me. But you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah), because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch-force them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch-force them out of the Father's hand." Jn10:24-28

"Father, those you have given Me out of the world --- Yours they were, and You gave them to Me." Jn17:6

"If God were your Father, then you would love Me --- for I proceded from the Father." Jn8:42

"If ANYONE (tis) enters through Me-the-door, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9

His Messiahship was what they disbelieved; because they disbelieved Him, and THAT was because they didn't really follow God. That's blatantly stated in other passages, like John5:

"You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life; but the Scriptures speak of Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life. HOW can you believe, WHEN you seek men's glory and do not seek God's? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one accusing you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. If you believed Moses, then you would believe Me; for Moses wrote of Me. But IF you DO not believe Moses, how will you believe My words?"

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They could not even believe who He was so therefore this savingly part is added..For no one could know who He was less the Father revealed it them. ​

How does that fit with "You can BELIEVE in Me just by looking at what I've DONE"?

Read Jesus' response to Thomas: "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe." Can we deny "believe-because-see"? Doesn't that ruin "believe-because-GOD-DECIDED"?

Now connect that with Matt11:21-24:
"Woe to you Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin. If Tyre and Sidon had seen the things YOU have seen, THEY would have repented long ago. If the miracles had occurred in Sodom that occurred in YOU, it would have remained to this day. I tell you it will go better for THEM in the day of judgment, than for YOU."

Why will Tyre/Sidon/Sodom fare better in the Judgment, than Chorazin/Bethsaida/Capernaum? There's only one answer --- greater willful unbelief.

Quoted by Ben:
Please read John10:25, and 38; people are fully capable of believing in Jesus just by looking at what He's DONE.​

What is your understanding of verse 38? "Believe in the works I've done, and you will know the Father is in Me and I am in the Father". What does that mean to you?

Quoted by MamaZ:
You need to read that again for they still did not believe. Some of the listeners of Jesus, Peter and Paul, did. The question remains --- can men believe in Jesus just by seeing what He's done? Clearly, THOMAS could...

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LOL Jesus said this because He had risen here.. Thomas believed in Jesus already.. He just would not believe He was alive for He knew He had died. Keep scripture in context you will do much better.​

By not believing in the Resurrection, Thomas did not believe in Christ. There is no "believing-in-Christ" without believing in His resurrection. 1Cor15:14 --- read this!

Thomas believed BECAUSE he saw --- there is no avoiding Jesus' words.

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Dead men can do nothing. So the belief and the Faith is from God..​

Is this Scripture, or opinion? If "Scripture", what is your reference?

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So that leaves men as they are totally depraved and incapable to even have faith to save themselves.​

Explain what happened in Lk8:13; these believed JOYFULLY, but by temptation (affliction/persecution Mk4:17), fell away. Per "Calvinism", they were NEVER SAVED (because they fell and revealed non-election).

How can anyone know he has REAL faith (that will persevere, because of "election"), or FAKE faith (that though begins joyfully, but ALWAYS falls away)? No one can KNOW he/she is saved, until DEATH --- right?

QUote:
Take a look at Lazarus.. He was dead and in the grave for days.. When Jesus called Lazarus came out. Ressurection power from Christ. Same as the saving faith we have to be saved by grace..​

That was a mere physical resurrection, had nothing to do with salvation or eternity.

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That is why scripture tells us we have died with Christ and been raised with Christ in newness of life.. Ressurection power for our Spirits.​

But don't you see, "died" is a constant choice? Look at 2Tim2:11-13; IF we have died, THEN we shall live. IF we endure THEN we shall reign. But if we deny Him and are faithless, then He will deny us before God.

Do you not see "constant choice"?

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Well read about Saul. Read about Isaiah.. When God drags us to Christ and We stand in front of The holiness of God do you really believe that you will not bow your knee to Him? ​

Saul and Isaiah were special cases; how many people do you know who have had a "Damascus-Road-Experience"?

Why do you think Jesus spent so much time rebuking those who WOULD not believe? We've just read Matt11:21-24, John5:39-47, and Jn8:42. Those sound to me like "admonishments TO believe". Add in Mark1:15, and Ezk18:32, and Acts17:30, and 1Tim2:1-4 (and many others) --- God clearly wants ALL men TO believe.

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It is the preaching of the Gospel and the Power of the Holy Spirit that reveals to mens hearts and gives thier hearts ressurection power.​

Why does ONE man believe and another does NOT, upon hearing the same preaching? There is only one answer --- each, chooses. That was the point of the parable in Matt22:2-14, wasn't it?

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For the scriptures are alive and active.
​

Afraid not; WE are active. Read Matt7:24-27.

He who ACTS --- can only mean he who BELIEVES.

That's the whole point of a "Final Judgment"; those WHO seek God and pursue righteousness (CHOOSE to believe), receive eternal life; those who seek sin, receive wrath. Rm2:6-8

"God is just and justifier of he WHO has faith in Jesus." Rom3:26

Not "he has faith, whom God chooses and justifies"...​

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
I dont have a problem with man knowing so long as you do not say the natural man can know without a supernatural intervention from the Holy Spirit, ie give man a new heart to enable him to know.​

Where is the principle that "unregenerated men cannot believe savingly in Christ"?
It's not in 1Cor2:14.
It's not in 2Cor4:3-4.
It's not in Mark4:11-12.
It's not in Ezk36:26-27.

Where is it?

Jesus spent so much time rebuking unregenerated men, TOWARDS belief. See Matt11:21-24, John5:39-47, Jn8:42-45 for instance...

 

[Ben johnson]

All of Scripture harmonizes; so when we read passages like James5:19-20, the argument should be resolved:

"Brethren, if any among you wander from the truth, and another brings him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered many sins."

The "wanderer" cannot wander from truth he's never HAD, nor can he come BACK to where he never WAS. Thus, it cannot refer to someone who "was never saved".

The wanderer had "soul-death" (psuche-thanatos), and uncovered/unforgiven sins; thus he cannot be considered "didn't-really-fall".

The only possible understanding, is "falling from salvation; and if led back, his soul saved and sins forgiven."

 

[MamaZ]

His Messiahship was what they disbelieved; because they disbelieved Him, and THAT was because they didn't really follow God. That's blatantly stated in other passages, like John5:

They did not believe because God had not revealed to them Who He was. Even Him telling them did nothing for them to beleive. Even the works that He did they did not believe.. Remember Jesus asking Peter who do people say that I am?

"You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life; but the Scriptures speak of Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life. HOW can you believe, WHEN you seek men's glory and do not seek God's? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one accusing you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. If you believed Moses, then you would believe Me; for Moses wrote of Me. But IF you DO not believe Moses, how will you believe My words?"

You really need to read up on Moses a little more. And why Jesus said this.

How does that fit with "You can BELIEVE in Me just by looking at what I've DONE"?

You may want to show me where He said you can believe in me just by looking at what I have done..

Read Jesus' response to Thomas: "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe." Can we deny "believe-because-see"? Doesn't that ruin "believe-because-GOD-DECIDED"?

Once again this is where Jesus rose from the dead... read the context..
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

How can anyone know he has REAL faith (that will persevere, because of "election"), or FAKE faith (that though begins joyfully, but ALWAYS falls away)? No one can KNOW he/she is saved, until DEATH --- right

we can know right now that we are saved.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.



1Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[MamaZ]

All of Scripture harmonizes; so when we read passages like James5:19-20, the argument should be resolved:

Scripture interprets scripture..For scripture cannot be broken

 

[yashualover]

Scripture interprets scripture..For scripture cannot be broken

Amen!!! Am I ever thankfull for that.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
They did not believe because God had not revealed to them Who He was.​

Hi, "MamaZ". Do you accept that "they were not believing Messiahship"?

Quote:
Even Him telling them did nothing for them to believe. Even the works that He did they did not believe...​

Why didn't they believe in Jesus? Nowhere does it say "they could not, 'cause God didn't choose them". In one of those passages I cited for you, Jesus says "HOW can you believe, WHEN you seek men's glory rather than God's"? (Jn5:39-47) I see nothing of "sovereign predestination" there...

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Remember Jesus asking Peter who do people say that I am?
"You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life; but the Scriptures speak of Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life. HOW can you believe, WHEN you seek men's glory and do not seek God's? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one accusing you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. If you believed Moses, then you would believe Me; for Moses wrote of Me. But IF you DO not believe Moses, how will you believe My words?"
You really need to read up on Moses a little more. And why Jesus said this. ​

The dymanic is clear; "IF you believed Moses (a choice), THEN you would believe Me" (consequence of THEIR choice, not God's).

Jesus' rebuke does not fit an underlying understanding of "God decides who has faith".

That's the problem; men (all men) are admonished to repent (Lk17:30); it's a true admonishment/rebuke, not a "rhetorical one".

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You may want to show me where He said you can believe in me just by looking at what I have done.. ​

Love to.
Jhn 10:38 "...but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

One would have to assert that "KNOW-FATHER-IN-ME (and I-in-Father)" does not mean "believe in Me", to deny He meant what I wrote ("you can believe in Me by looking at what I've done"). And what I said, fits Matt11:21-24 perfectly --- those cities were condemned for REFUSING to believe.

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Once again this is where Jesus rose from the dead... read the context.. ​

The context is that Thomas didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead. Thus, Thomas wasn't accepting Jesus' Gospel of salvation. Seeing was CAUSAL to his believing; and Jesus said unseen-belief is greater than seen-belief.

There's no way that fits "belief is sovereignly-predestined/gifted".

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we can know right now that we are saved.
​

I think so too; but Predestination does not.

As I said, those in Lk8:13 believed JOYFULLY --- but "RT" asserts "by falling away they PROVED they were NOT elect, never really saved in the first place.

Thus --- one who holds to "predestination", cannot know if he's "elect", or only falsely-believing, until he actually perseveres to DEATH.

If that's wrong, tell me how anyone can know he/she is saved, rather than "falsely (joyfully) believing and will some day fall".

 

[yashualover]

Quoted by Yashualover:
I dont have a problem with man knowing so long as you do not say the natural man can know without a supernatural intervention from the Holy Spirit, ie give man a new heart to enable him to know.
​

Where is the principle that "unregenerated men cannot believe savingly in Christ"?
It's not in 1Cor2:14.
It's not in 2Cor4:3-4.
It's not in Mark4:11-12.
It's not in Ezk36:26-27.

Where is it?

Jesus spent so much time rebuking unregenerated men, TOWARDS belief. See Matt11:21-24, John5:39-47, Jn8:42-45 for instance...

Depravity

http://www.monergism.com/directory/...links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=depravity

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
Depravity

http://www.monergism.com/directory/s...rase=depravity​

Hi, "Yashualover". I'm on a dialup, so I cannot look at all 72 links.

Pick one, and let's discuss it. But be advised if the linked discussion cites 1Cor2:14, 2Cor4:3-4, Mark4:11-12, Ezk36:26-27, Jeremiah17:9, John10:26-28 or 6:37, 39, 44 and certain others --- each of those is very easily refutible in terms of "predestination".

Rom3:10ff, as well as 9:10-21 and Eph1:4-5 & 6-7 are also answerable, though not as absolutely in the views of "Reformed Theologians".

Looking forward to it!

 

[MamaZ]

Ben.. Jesus said that those who believe in Him he gives eternal life.. Now you are trying to say that Jesus lied. Thomas believed in Jesus. None of the Apostles understood the ressurrection.. The other scriptures that you gave me is that They did not even believe Moses when Moses wrote of Him. This is Why scripture tells us that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him. Even Peter who walked with Jesus and was taught by Jesus did not know Who Jesus was until the Father revealed it to Him. So your argument is nill based on your own theory of scripture instead of scripture building your theory..

 

[MamaZ]

Love to.
Jhn 10:38 "...but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

One would have to assert that "KNOW-FATHER-IN-ME (and I-in-Father)" does not mean "believe in Me", to deny He meant what I wrote ("you can believe in Me by looking at what I've done"). And what I said, fits Matt11:21-24 perfectly --- those cities were condemned for REFUSING to believe

How can they believe unless the Father opens their eyes to understand who He is? Once again we take you back to Peter who walked with Christ closely..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Ben.. Jesus said that those who believe in Him he gives eternal life..​

The "life", is "eternal"; but our possession OF it, is conditional. 1Jn to 2Jn makes it clear; in 1:5:11-13, "He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son has not the life". Then we're warned against deceivers, warned to be careful and abide in His teachings --- for "he who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son." 2:1:7-9

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Now you are trying to say that Jesus lied.​

No lie; Jesus said our position, conditions on our continuing in Him. Peter said that too, Paul said it, James said it, Jude said it.

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Thomas believed in Jesus.​

No he didn't. One CANNOT believe in Jesus WITHOUT believing in the Resurrection. As 1Cor15 says, "If Christ not be raised from the dead, your faith is in VAIN".

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None of the Apostles understood the ressurrection.. The other scriptures that you gave me is that They did not even believe Moses when Moses wrote of Him.​

And Jesus blasted them for "UNWILLING to believe that you may HAVE life" --- didn't He?

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This is Why scripture tells us that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws Him.​

First, that passage is responding to the Jews saying: "We saw this kid grow UP, who does He think He IS?!"

Second, Jesus said "I will draw all men to Myself". Jn12:32. Same word, "helkuo-draw-DRAG"...

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Even Peter who walked with Jesus and was taught by Jesus did not know Who Jesus was until the Father revealed it to Him.​

Peter believed in Jesus, AND the deeper things (Messiahship!) were revealed.

Jesus also fully considered Peter's faith, fallible. Lk22:32 Clearly Jesus thought Peter COULD fall, strengthened by His use of "epistrepho".

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So your argument is nill based on your own theory of scripture instead of scripture building your theory..​

Looks like everything I've said, is supported by Scripture. If you think I'm mis-understanding, please tell me where and how.

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How can they believe unless the Father opens their eyes to understand who He is? Once again we take you back to Peter who walked with Christ closely..​

Each person is DRAGGED to Christ, and then chooses to believe or to leave. You cannot find a verse that says "GOD decides belief". Mark4:11-12 is tempered with Matt13:5, "they close their OWN eyes and ears lest they turn and be healed."

2Cor4:3-4 ("their eyes are veiled lest they turn") is tempered with 2:3:16, "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord, the veil is removed".

All of Scripture places "belief", as our own responsibility.

The dynamic is beautifully explained in 2Tim1:12-14; God guards what we entrust, and we guard (by the Spirit) what He entrusts.

We guard by the Spirit; just like Rom8:12-14 which says "we walk EITHER after flesh-lusts (and must DIE), or by the Spirit we put to death the Spirit and walk in the Son, and live."

His power, our faith. His grace, our abiding. His salvation, our perseverance.

Make sense?

 

[MamaZ]

The "life", is "eternal"; but our possession OF it, is conditional. 1Jn to 2Jn makes it clear; in 1:5:11-13, "He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son has not the life". Then we're warned against deceivers, warned to be careful and abide in His teachings --- for "he who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son." 2:1:7-9

And what was His teaching? That HE came to give life to those who believes on Him. Our possession is not conditional. If it were then it would not be as Jesus states it is. Eternal life. Something cannot be eternal if indeed it can be lost. This is why Scripture tells us that the preaching of the cross if Foolishness to those whom are perishing.. For they do not believe our salvation was bought and paid for at the cross of Christ.

No he didn't. One CANNOT believe in Jesus WITHOUT believing in the Resurrection. As 1Cor15 says, "If Christ not be raised from the dead, your faith is in VAIN".

Yes He did.. Once again look at the context of scripture for which it is written. Peter did not believe Jesus had to die either. But HE did.. But Yet God chose them.

All of Scripture places "belief", as our own responsibility.

Dead men can do nothing. They are dead. It takes the Holy Spirit in order for one to believe. For ressurecton life is in the Spirit.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
And what was His teaching? That HE came to give life to those who believes on Him. Our possession is not conditional.​

Hi, "MamaZ". Please do a search on "blameless" --- and you'll find many "conditional salvation verses".

Salvation is conditional in Col1:21-23 (where "blamelessness" conditions on "IF we continue in the faith firmly-established and steadfast, and not be moved away from (Jesus) the Hope of the Gospel".

It's conditional in 2Pet3:14-17. And in Philip2:15-16 ("holding fast to the word of life, SO THAT I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain").

It's conditional in Jude24, where the context clearly combines "build yourselves in faith" and "keep yourselves in the love of God" (20-21).

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If it were then it would not be as Jesus states it is. Eternal life. Something cannot be eternal if indeed it can be lost.​

Look at how Peter words it in 1:1:4-5 --- the inheritance is eternal life, it's reserved in Heaven for us, and protected by His power, THROUGH OUR FAITH. Verse 9: "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls."

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This is why Scripture tells us that the preaching of the cross if Foolishness to those whom are perishing.. For they do not believe our salvation was bought and paid for at the cross of Christ. ​

Note that passage (1Cor1:18-21), asserts "God is pleased, THROUGH the foolishness to save those WHO believe".

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Yes He did.. Once again look at the context of scripture for which it is written. Peter did not believe Jesus had to die either. But HE did.. But Yet God chose them. ​

Peter's faith was fallible; is there any way to deny the sincerity of Jesus' prayer, in Lk22:32?

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Dead men can do nothing. They are dead. It takes the Holy Spirit in order for one to believe. For ressurecton life is in the Spirit.​

Perhaps you're right; yet, if every last Human is CALLED, then that call imparts the Spirit's power sufficiently TO believe.

What you'll never find in Scripture, is "regeneration preceding belief". If you know of one verse, where is it?

BTW, thanx for the gr8 discussion. If we never come to agreement, let us agree to fellowship in love as true brother and sister in Christ.

 

[yashualover]

Original Sin - Depravity Infects Everyone
J.I. Packer (from Concise Theology)
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5)
Scripture diagnoses sin as a universal deformity of human nature, found at every point in every person (1 Kings 8:46; Rom. 3:9-23; 7:18; 1 John 1:8-10). Both Testaments have names for it that display its ethical character as rebellion against God's rule, missing the mark God set us to aim at, transgressing God's law, disobeying God's directives, offending God's purity by defiling oneself, and incurring guilt before God the Judge. This moral deformity is dynamic: sin stands revealed as an energy of irrational, negative, and rebellious reaction to God's call and command, a spirit of fighting God in order to play God. The root of sin is pride and enmity against God, the spirit seen in Adam's first transgression; and sinful acts always have behind them thoughts, motives, and desires that one way or another express the willful opposition of the fallen heart to God's claims on our lives.
Sin may be comprehensively defined as lack of conformity to the law of God in act, habit, attitude, outlook, disposition, motivation, and mode of existence. Scriptures that illustrate different aspects of sin include Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 12:30-37; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 1:18-3:20; 7:7-25; 8:5-8; 14:23 (Luther said that Paul wrote Romans to "magnify sin"); Galatians 5:16-21; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19; Hebrews 3:12; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; 5:17. Flesh in Paul usually means a human being driven by sinful desire; the niv renders these instances of the word as "sinful nature." The particular faults and vices (i.e., forms and expression of sin) that Scripture detects and denounces are too numerous to list here.
Original sin, meaning sin derived from our origin, is not a biblical phrase (Augustine coined it), but it is one that brings into fruitful focus the reality of sin in our spiritual system. The assertion of original sin means not that sin belongs to human nature as God made it (God made mankind upright, Eccles. 7:29), nor that sin is involved in the processes of reproduction and birth (the uncleanness connected with menstruation, sperm, and childbirth in Leviticus 12 and 15 was typical and ceremonial only, not moral and real), but that (a) sinfulness marks everyone from birth, and is there in the form of a motivationally twisted heart, prior to any actual sins; (b) this inner sinfulness is the root and source of all actual sins; (c) it derives to us in a real though mysterious way from Adam, our first representative before God. The assertion of original sin makes the point that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin because we are sinners, born with a nature enslaved to sin.
The phrase total depravity is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be) but in extent. It declares that no part of us is untouched by sin, and therefore no action of ours is as good as it should be, and consequently nothing in us or about us ever appears meritorious in God's eyes. We cannot earn God's favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost. Total depravity entails total inability, that is, the state of not having it in oneself to respond to God and his Word in a sincere and wholehearted way (John 6:44; Rom. 8:7-8). Paul calls this unresponsiveness of the fallen heart a state of death (Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13), and the Westminster Confession says: "Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto" (IX. 3).

 

[MamaZ]

Quoted by MamaZ:
And what was His teaching? That HE came to give life to those who believes on Him. Our possession is not conditional.
​

Hi, "MamaZ". Please do a search on "blameless" --- and you'll find many "conditional salvation verses".

Salvation is conditional in Col1:21-23 (where "blamelessness" conditions on "IF we continue in the faith firmly-established and steadfast, and not be moved away from (Jesus) the Hope of the Gospel".

It's conditional in 2Pet3:14-17. And in Philip2:15-16 ("holding fast to the word of life, SO THAT I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain").

It's conditional in Jude24, <B>where the context clearly combines "build yourselves in faith" and "keep yourselves in the love of God" (20-21).

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​

</B>

If it were then it would not be as Jesus states it is. Eternal life. Something cannot be eternal if indeed it can be lost.
​

<B>Look at how Peter words it in 1:1:4-5 --- the inheritance is eternal life, it's reserved in Heaven for us, and protected by His power, THROUGH OUR FAITH. Verse 9: "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls."

Quote:
​

</B>

This is why Scripture tells us that the preaching of the cross if Foolishness to those whom are perishing.. For they do not believe our salvation was bought and paid for at the cross of Christ.
​

<B>Note that passage (1Cor1:18-21), asserts "God is pleased, THROUGH the foolishness to save those WHO believe".

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​

</B>

Yes He did.. Once again look at the context of scripture for which it is written. Peter did not believe Jesus had to die either. But HE did.. But Yet God chose them.
​

<B>Peter's faith was fallible; is there any way to deny the sincerity of Jesus' prayer, in Lk22:32?

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​

</B>

Dead men can do nothing. They are dead. It takes the Holy Spirit in order for one to believe. For ressurecton life is in the Spirit.
​

Perhaps you're right; yet, if every last Human is CALLED, then that call imparts the Spirit's power sufficiently TO believe.

What you'll never find in Scripture, is "regeneration preceding belief". If you know of one verse, where is it?

BTW, thanx for the gr8 discussion. If we never come to agreement, let us agree to fellowship in love as true brother and sister in Christ.

Well why don't you do a study on who will keep us blameless. Not us based on any condition.. For we have Peace with God through Jesus blood.

 

[MamaZ]

In other words, you're really saying that salvation is conditional in the sense that my works have to stay up to standard or I forfeit my salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Well why don't you do a study on who will keep us blameless. Not us based on any condition.. For we have Peace with God through Jesus blood.
​

Those verses (Philip2:25, 2Pet3:14-17, Col1:21-23, Jude1:24 & 20-21), absolutely feature "blameless". And each of them charges the BELIEVER to continue in blamelessness.

Quote:
In other words, you're really saying that salvation is conditional in the sense that my works have to stay up to standard or I forfeit my salvation.
​

Didn't say anything even close to that.

"Salvation", is conditional on continuing in Christ.

If belief is initially our choice, then it's constantly also our choice. Look at every passage that warns against "deceivers"; they always have the purpose of leading us away from Christ.

Here's one that pairs "deceivers", and "abiding-in-Christ":
"1Jo 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1Jo 2:28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. "

Notice that in the same context of "deceivers", is "ABIDE IN HIM". The consequence is "shrinking in shame when He appears".

Can anyone contend "shrink-in-shame", is still "saved"?

Works have nothing to do with "salvation", but everything to do with "having BEEN saved". He who is saved, does good works; consequence, not cause.

Yet, "salvation", is "believing/receiving Christ". Just as the man in 2Pet1:9 did, and the one in Heb10:29, each of us can cease to believe.

Notice in each of those passages (2Pet1:9 & Heb10:29), those men were once saved. In no way can we deny "they were saved", nor can we deny "they aren't saved NOW".

Salvation is "in Christ", by faith; if faith becomes unbelief, then we are no longer "in Christ"....

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Ben-

It has been a while since I responded about John 3:3, because I have been studying it. And, I believe that the support I have found will completely prove my point, that is, that Jesus taught in John 3:3 that regeneration must precede justification.

We left off at your defense of "idien" as meaning "physically behold". You had a very strong reason for interpreting idien that way, because in all other biblical texts, idien does refer to physically seeing or experiencing something. The problem though, is that by your own profession, the word can very well mean "perceive". If this is the case, then your proof isn't a proof at all, only a support. What will prove whether the word actually means "physically behold" or "perceive" will be the context.

I hope you agree with me on this point, that if it is possible for the word to mean two different things, then the context MUST determine which meaning it is. Just because it is mentioned in every other instance in Scripture as referring to one specific meaning doesn't mean that it always does or has to. If this is the case, then I can prove to you BY THE CONTEXT that idien MUST be interpretted as perceive in John 3:3.


Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

For some reason I didn't think of this before... the problem with your interpretation is that you assume "the kingdom of God" to refer to a place. If it wasn't an actual place, then there would be nothing to physically behold, correct? I would assume that you believe "kingdom of God" is referring to either the millennial kingdom or the heavenly kingdom or something that is literally a visible kingdom. If it isn't a visible kingdom, then Jesus couldn't have possibly meant "physically behold". And I think I can prove that "the kingdom of God" is not visible.

Luk 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here {it is!}' or, 'There {it is!}' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

In you midst, or INSIDE YOU

evtos su trans. entos humon

entos -

1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
b) within you i.e. your soul

humon

1) of yours

The kingdom of God is salvation. It is not a literal place. One cannot say "here it is or there it is", it is something within you, i.e. SALVATION. Jesus proclaimed this HIMSELF.

Therefore, the text is clear once put into context-

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [regenerated] he cannot see [perceive] the kingdom of God [be saved]."

Here's my paraphrase-

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is regenerated he cannot understand the things which lead to salvation.

On the other hand, we have your interpretation-

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [regenerated] he cannot see [physically behold] the kingdom of God [be saved]."

Your interpretation makes no sense Ben. Here we have a perfect proof text for regeneration preceding justification straight out of Jesus' mouth.

 

[nobdysfool]

Ben-

It has been a while since I responded about John 3:3, because I have been studying it. And, I believe that the support I have found will completely prove my point, that is, that Jesus taught in John 3:3 that regeneration must precede justification.

We left off at your defense of "idien" as meaning "physically behold". You had a very strong reason for interpreting idien that way, because in all other biblical texts, idien does refer to physically seeing or experiencing something. The problem though, is that by your own profession, the word can very well mean "perceive". If this is the case, then your proof isn't a proof at all, only a support. What will prove whether the word actually means "physically behold" or "perceive" will be the context.

I hope you agree with me on this point, that if it is possible for the word to mean two different things, then the context MUST determine which meaning it is. Just because it is mentioned in every other instance in Scripture as referring to one specific meaning doesn't mean that it always does or has to. If this is the case, then I can prove to you BY THE CONTEXT that idien MUST be interpretted as perceive in John 3:3.


Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

For some reason I didn't think of this before... the problem with your interpretation is that you assume "the kingdom of God" to refer to a place. If it wasn't an actual place, then there would be nothing to physically behold, correct? I would assume that you believe "kingdom of God" is referring to either the millennial kingdom or the heavenly kingdom or something that is literally a visible kingdom. If it isn't a visible kingdom, then Jesus couldn't have possibly meant "physically behold". And I think I can prove that "the kingdom of God" is not visible.

Luk 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here {it is!}' or, 'There {it is!}' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

In you midst, or INSIDE YOU

evtos su trans. entos humon

entos -

1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
b) within you i.e. your soul

humon

1) of yours

The kingdom of God is salvation. It is not a literal place. One cannot say "here it is or there it is", it is something within you, i.e. SALVATION. Jesus proclaimed this HIMSELF.

Therefore, the text is clear once put into context-

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [regenerated] he cannot see [perceive] the kingdom of God [be saved]."

Here's my paraphrase-

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is regenerated he cannot understand the things which lead to salvation.

On the other hand, we have your interpretation-

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [regenerated] he cannot see [physically behold] the kingdom of God [be saved]."

Your interpretation makes no sense Ben. Here we have a perfect proof text for regeneration preceding justification straight out of Jesus' mouth.

Excellent! Put a lock on it, the Truth has been revealed! Regeneration does precede justification, which is by faith, therefore, regeneration indeed does precede faith just as Calvinism and Reformed theology have taught for centuries.

And the funny thing is, that fact would not materially alter the rest of Ben's theology at all. The reason he resists, is because it removes any claim of playing a part in one's own salvation, and places all of the glory and credit to God, where it rightfully belongs. The free will advocates can't countenance that.

The free will-ers want to say "Jesus saved me because I believed!"

The Calvinists and RT folk say "I believe because Jesus saved me!"

One glorifies man, the other, God.